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I have a couple of questions on the White event options if the Komuch falls.

1. Can the Directory or Military Dictatorship events be played even if Omsk is in the hands of the Reds?

2. If a Military Dictatorship is established, and then Omsk falls, does the fall of Omsk cancel any ongoing effects from establishment of the Dictatorship? For example, the experience and cohesion boosts?

Thanks in advance for any answers.

My goodness, fascinating question about which I have absolutely no idea. I hope some other can shed light.
But now this is on my radar and I am looking.

elxaime wrote:I have a couple of questions on the White event options if the Komuch falls.

1. Can the Directory or Military Dictatorship events be played even if Omsk is in the hands of the Reds?

2. If a Military Dictatorship is established, and then Omsk falls, does the fall of Omsk cancel any ongoing effects from establishment of the Dictatorship? For example, the experience and cohesion boosts?

Thanks in advance for any answers.

Salut,

Short answers :

1. No. Omsk is the last main town to hold to make it a capital for those 2 governments. If you not have it, you probably are not a serious power but only looking like walking deads Whites hordes running the steppes.

2. Depend of what you means as ongoing effects. The units' experiences remain always and the cohesion boost not.

Thanks. On Number 2, to elaborate:

The Dictatorship event gives the White units one star of experience each turn for nine turns. Here is a hypothetical situation. The Dictatorship has been established for three turns, which means all White units now have three stars experience. Then Omsk falls to the Reds. According to the event description, this seems to indicate the Dictatorship also ends. While the three stars experience remains, the fall of Omsk means the Whites stop getting another star each turn (up to the limit of nine) and of course also loose the cohesion boosts. Is that correct? In other words, does the fall of Omsk stop the Whites from gaining more stars of experience each turn? Thanks.

andatiep wrote:Omsk is the last main town to hold to make it a capital for a government event, because if you do not have it then you look like hordes. Omsk fallen, you lose the boost effects of dictatorship (you lose the cohesion but you keep the already experience, of course).

Again some text to be put somewhere ingame.

elxaime wrote:Thanks. On Number 2, to elaborate:

The Dictatorship event gives the White units one star of experience each turn for nine turns. Here is a hypothetical situation. The Dictatorship has been established for three turns, which means all White units now have three stars experience. Then Omsk falls to the Reds. According to the event description, this seems to indicate the Dictatorship also ends. While the three stars experience remains, the fall of Omsk means the Whites stop getting another star each turn (up to the limit of nine) and of course also loose the cohesion boosts. Is that correct?.

Yes. It is correct.

elxaime wrote: In other words, does the fall of Omsk stop the Whites from gaining more stars of experience each turn?

Yes ...and no, they still could get some XP with the basic game system...

Thanks for the replies. One of the reasons I'd asked was because my sense remains that the experience boosts of the White Dictatorship event need some balancing.

In a current PBEM, the Whites lost the Komuch in late 1919 and declared dictatorship. Over the course of the next nine turns, as each White combat unit on the map got a star each turn, the overall combat power balance between the two sides went from roughly 1:1 to well over 2:1 in favor of the Whites. The Reds basically forgot about going on the offensive for the rest of the game, as the White units were now demi-gods. In a typical battle pre-White dictatorship, it was not unusual for the Reds to lose twice as many troops in an otherwise equal battle. Post-White dictatorship, it is common for the Reds to lose four to five times as many men per battle, especially in restricted terrain. This is one of those times where I think a game mechanic was devised with combat versus AI in mind, namely a Red player looking for a challenge against the White AI. But for PBEM, it can really kill a game when such a one-sided boost is handed out. The negatives from declaring dictatorship are far outweighed by the positives - I've never had a white opponent hold off from declaring dictatorship when it was available.

elxaime wrote:Thanks for the replies. One of the reasons I'd asked was because my sense remains that the experience boosts of the White Dictatorship event need some balancing.

In a current PBEM, the Whites lost the Komuch in late 1919 and declared dictatorship. Over the course of the next nine turns, as each White combat unit on the map got a star each turn, the overall combat power balance between the two sides went from roughly 1:1 to well over 2:1 in favor of the Whites. The Reds basically forgot about going on the offensive for the rest of the game, as the White units were now demi-gods. In a typical battle pre-White dictatorship, it was not unusual for the Reds to lose twice as many troops in an otherwise equal battle. Post-White dictatorship, it is common for the Reds to lose four to five times as many men per battle, especially in restricted terrain. This is one of those times where I think a game mechanic was devised with combat versus AI in mind, namely a Red player looking for a challenge against the White AI. But for PBEM, it can really kill a game when such a one-sided boost is handed out. The negatives from declaring dictatorship are far outweighed by the positives - I've never had a white opponent hold off from declaring dictatorship when it was available.

You're probably right about that effect. I'm playing currently 2 PBEM games and one is starting to have this effect and i will check carefully if it happen for the second one (where i'm playing Whites in a very difficult situation now and i will be 'happy' to see this effect to save my game .).
If confirmed, the PBEM Red players will have to very carefully not let the Eastern Whites hold Omsk too long after they are able to switch to a Military dictatorship (untill some new volunteers and patch show up).

That's a good reason for re-simulating the historical rush to the East offensive and crush Kolchak before facing the Western Whites .

andatiep wrote:If confirmed, the PBEM Red players will have to very carefully not let the Eastern Whites hold Omsk too long after they are able to switch to a Military dictatorship (untill some new volunteers and patch show up).

I've thought about that, but the only way to really do that is to artificially hold off taking Samara and destroying the Komuch until the Reds are well on the way to Omsk. Once Samara (which is usually the last of the cities you need to trigger the end of the Komuch) falls, the Eastern Whites can immediately declare the dictatorship if they have the EP. The rough terrain around Ufa and Ekaterinburg, if still in Eastern White hands, is an unbreachable barrier since once those stars get added, in rough terrain the entrenched White infantry simply cannot be moved. In other words, unless the Reds use "gamey" tactics to delay the fall of the Komuch, there is no way the Reds get to Omsk.

The other issue is the nine stars get added to everyone. The Western Whites, Northern Whites, Balts, whomever is in the game for the Whites at the time, all get the boost. Not sure why an event controlled by the Eastern Whites should apply to everyone, since Admiral Kolchak was only dictator in the East.

Here are some options for a fix:

- dropping the boost from nine to three stars
- making it so the Eastern Whites can only declare the dictatorship if both Ekaterinburg and Ufa have also fallen
- restricting the nine star boost to only certain types of units or to the East faction
- having dictatorship trigger loyalty losses throughout Siberia and the Pacific areas each turn it is in effect, say a 35 percent chance each turn for each area to gain 10 percent Red loyalty. This means the improved Eastern Whites have to deal with the political consequences in their rear

I couldn't remember clearly but reds could be still be in concript models at later dates. Maybe they auto upgrade.

I have seen Red Militia auto-upgrade if they gain stars through combat. Maybe this is the code from CW2 or ACW where they can auto-upgrade if they gain stars, and this was imported into the code of RUS?

I tried to solve the problems of this forum discussion :

Those who want to help to test it can install this kind of mini-patch attached in this post : Unzip it and follow the readme.rtf file instructions.

I haven't tested this yet, but will in the next PBEM. I looked at the Read Me and I had one question. Although the Whites get 4 stars now instead of 9 - which I think is better balanced - does it effect still all White and White Allies (e.g. Poles, Balts, Caucasus)? It is more a logic issue. Admiral Kolchak was only Dictator in the East, so I am wondering why everyone gets the boost?

elxaime wrote:I haven't tested this yet, but will in the next PBEM. I looked at the Read Me and I had one question. Although the Whites get 4 stars now instead of 9 - which I think is better balanced - does it effect still all White and White Allies (e.g. Poles, Balts, Caucasus)? It is more a logic issue. Admiral Kolchak was only Dictator in the East, so I am wondering why everyone gets the boost?

Nothing in the code about BAL, POL, CAU sub-factions because there is no XP boost for them before and after. I wonder where you saw this effects on them but in my games, there is only the WH3 and WHI (Russian Eastern and Western Whites) which get XP and cohesion boost.
Western Whites get it also because Kolchak was there leader too, Denikine did accept Kolchak as suprem commander and all troops and peasants in the Western fronts did know about it.

andatiep wrote:

elxaime wrote:I haven't tested this yet, but will in the next PBEM. I looked at the Read Me and I had one question. Although the Whites get 4 stars now instead of 9 - which I think is better balanced - does it effect still all White and White Allies (e.g. Poles, Balts, Caucasus)? It is more a logic issue. Admiral Kolchak was only Dictator in the East, so I am wondering why everyone gets the boost?

Nothing in the code about BAL, POL, CAU sub-factions because there is no XP boost for them before and after. I wonder where you saw this effects on them but in my games, there is only the WH3 and WHI (Russian Eastern and Western Whites) which get XP and cohesion boost.
Western Whites get it also because Kolchak was there leader too, Denikine did accept Kolchak as suprem commander and all troops and peasants in the Western fronts did know about it.

Ah, OK then, my mistake. I thought all got the 9 stars.

If you plan to eventually make this quick fix into a regular update, would also suggest looking at several balancing possibilities raised in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=293&t=30668

One area I would suggest would be to make the Far East war more competitive. Right now, the Reds aren't really a threat. This is especially true if White Dictatorship is in play, as 9-star White cavalry can vaporize the Red partisans. But the main issue is the map doesn't really allow anywhere for the Red partisans to run or hide, and the short distances mean it is easy for the Whites to react and chase. This is a tough issue, since the Far East is not able to be developed in size due to map constraints. What you might do is:

- allow Red partisans in the East (marked with a regional icon to keep them in the East) to be rebuilt
- make eastern Red Partisan leader stats better
- let Red partisans from the Far East (only) gain stars if White Dictatorship is played
- consider adding Red "warband" style units to the Red Far East pool which would allow the Reds to occasionally threaten weakly held towns; these could enter in special events, e.g. Red Mongolia, and could be rebuilt in certain areas
- perhaps even consider creating some sort of "off-map" holding box where only Red Far East units can enter (but they can exit) to give a safe area where they can mass and regroup (again, because the map can't be expanded)

Another area I'd look at are the Red options to extend the war into Finland, Caucasus and Romania. Right now, aside from EP gain (which is nice but not that big a deal), choosing the event seem all downside. You may want to tweak to make it more of a choice, since right now no Red player in their right mind in PBEM should want to expand the war to create new enemies.

I'd consider adjusting the VP levels. Especially after the Polish War starts, the Reds fall far behind in VP even if they are doing well otherwise.

I'd check and see if you can exclude the White aircraft from the Dictatorship boost. The reason is play balance. 9-star White fighter planes basically mean you might as well not build a Red air force, since they get shot out of the sky as soon as they appear.

You should also give thought to increasing GHQ ranges, or adding more towns the Reds can make GHQ in. Right now, there are many gaps on the map. The White factions, with their more compact areas, don't suffer this problem.

Finally, I think the Reds need more 1-star leaders. Aside from their horrible stats generally, right now they have a serious lack of 1-star leaders, so that they need to use most of their 2-stars just to form stacks. This leads to a lot of aggravation as you end up with stacks losing command when some 1-stars auto-promote/gain seniority and you are constantly having to shift 2-star leaders around to make sure this doesn't happen. Having more 1-stars would enable you to hold fronts and use your superior numbers. Right now, not only do you need to use your 2-stars to form units, you end up having to pull your partisan leaders in to form corps since you lack enough 1-stars.

Just some thoughts.

Declaring war on Romania could be very good plausible move in a weekly turns I think; it is fast.
I think overall Red Army isn't sufficient at attacking. In your previous post I think there wasn't an engineer unit. With 200 entrechment it is quite a loss. I think as you mention it is engine than design.

Weekly turns is also a great idea.

elxaime wrote:If you plan to eventually make this quick fix into a regular update, would also suggest looking at several balancing possibilities raised in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=293&t=30668

Game was completely re-balanced with the Gold version long after this thread and some of the points included in it.

elxaime wrote:One area I would suggest would be to make the Far East war more competitive. Right now, the Reds aren't really a threat. This is especially true if White Dictatorship is in play, as 9-star White cavalry can vaporize the Red partisans. But the main issue is the map doesn't really allow anywhere for the Red partisans to run or hide, and the short distances mean it is easy for the Whites to react and chase. This is a tough issue, since the Far East is not able to be developed in size due to map constraints. What you might do is:

- allow Red partisans in the East (marked with a regional icon to keep them in the East) to be rebuilt
- make eastern Red Partisan leader stats better
- let Red partisans from the Far East (only) gain stars if White Dictatorship is played
- consider adding Red "warband" style units to the Red Far East pool which would allow the Reds to occasionally threaten weakly held towns; these could enter in special events, e.g. Red Mongolia, and could be rebuilt in certain areas
- perhaps even consider creating some sort of "off-map" holding box where only Red Far East units can enter (but they can exit) to give a safe area where they can mass and regroup (again, because the map can't be expanded)

All that looks nice to me. But i've no more time to work on it. If you want to MOD it and if it is well done, i will surely make it recommanded "official" patch. I can't do more.

elxaime wrote:Another area I'd look at are the Red options to extend the war into Finland, Caucasus and Romania. Right now, aside from EP gain (which is nice but not that big a deal), choosing the event seem all downside. You may want to tweak to make it more of a choice, since right now no Red player in their right mind in PBEM should want to expand the war to create new enemies.

This was already designed in the Gold version :
If you aim a "small" victory by VP : big gain in EP can be convert into VP with the Options "Care of the people".
After all, from the RUS Gold, there is no other ways for the Red player that invading some neighboring countries if it aims a victory with Objective Cities ! ...And a veteran PBEM player should first target a victory by Objective cities, and if it become a failure, start to think of a victory by VP's, isn't it ;-) ?

elxaime wrote:I'd consider adjusting the VP levels. Especially after the Polish War starts, the Reds fall far behind in VP even if they are doing well otherwise.

The Polish war is a kind of second start in RUS Gold. It was designed so that in the middle of the game, the Whites get a second chance, otherwhise many times, the second part of the game was only a long agony for the Whites.
But true, it may be a strong challenge for the Reds if they are not in a good situation in early 1920. Vae Victis !

elxaime wrote:I'd check and see if you can exclude the White aircraft from the Dictatorship boost. The reason is play balance. 9-star White fighter planes basically mean you might as well not build a Red air force, since they get shot out of the sky as soon as they appear.

Should be only 4 stars after the mini-patch project and anyway Whites have so fiew airplanes that they can't be everywhere :-)

elxaime wrote:You should also give thought to increasing GHQ ranges, or adding more towns the Reds can make GHQ in. Right now, there are many gaps on the map. The White factions, with their more compact areas, don't suffer this problem.

I designed a very big range for all GHQ, but the AGE engine version in use bugged so Pocus had to reduce it to 5 regions :-(.
So players have to send their leader in the radius, form the corps leader, and then bring them back to the remote fronts. That's it.

elxaime wrote:Finally, I think the Reds need more 1-star leaders. Aside from their horrible stats generally, right now they have a serious lack of 1-star leaders, so that they need to use most of their 2-stars just to form stacks. This leads to a lot of aggravation as you end up with stacks losing command when some 1-stars auto-promote/gain seniority and you are constantly having to shift 2-star leaders around to make sure this doesn't happen. Having more 1-stars would enable you to hold fronts and use your superior numbers. Right now, not only do you need to use your 2-stars to form units, you end up having to pull your partisan leaders in to form corps since you lack enough 1-stars.

Creating more leaders was too much works. Again, if you want to add more, MOD it and we will welcome a recommanded patch about it if it works fine.
The solution we did in RUS Gold about that was to increase the command points of the Politkoms. But true, you can't form division units with it. But the Red army should be already very strong when you arrive to the point where you lack leaders. Instead of complaining that you can't have more, It's time to fight with it - the units you will lose inside your divisions will need to be replaced anyway ;-)

Thanks for the detailed reply. Anyway, its a great game so many thanks for the work you have already done.

elxaime wrote: its a great game so many thanks for the work you have already done.

Fully agree

During the dictatorship, white can not build factories and increase the railways. Also lost Komuch army. This greatly restricts the army of eastern white.

Also limited requisition and conscription. It harms western white.

Early introduction of dictatorship can be very damaging to white.

Situation:
The Dictatorship event gives the White units one star of experience each turn for nine turns. So basically White units are getting another star each turn (up to the limit of nine).

Question:
The question is: if dictatorship lasts for 30 turns and White players forms new units during that time - do all of new formed units will have its experienced raised by this event?

andatiep wrote:

elxaime wrote: the Dictatorship boost. The reason is play balance. 9-star

Should be only 4 stars after the mini-patch project

So, what about this patch? Project aborted?