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I started a new campaign as Britain, and was astonished to see that my military upkeep for my starting forces was 147 money. If I remember correctly, this is a 400% or more increase over what it used to be.

I started a new campaign as France, and saw that the military upkeep for my starting forces was 63 money. I remember it as being 14 money, again, less than one quarter.

Neither one of these nations can afford their starting military, as money is taking a nosedive in the first year. This is not historical.

But the worst part of this is when I resumed my russian campaign, which was in 1870. The cost of maintaining my vast Russian military is zero. There is no item in the message log describing the cost of maintaining my forces. I confirmed this with the tooltip over the money icon in the F4 screen - my military costs nothing.

This change, introduced in 1.02 b, makes the game unhistorical and unplayable. A new campaign has far too high a cost for the military, and a loaded save game has no cost at all.

I know many people have complained about the military not costing enough, but this cure is worse than the disease. Even if you raises taxes or scrimp, you have no money left for other governmental activities like colonial actions, infrastructure, building new troops and ships. This is ruining the game for me.

Please fix this, I beg you. It is so hard to live without PON.

in 1884 my german military cost 167 money, if i start a new campaign with prussia it cost 17 money that with 1.02b.
think that colonial forces cost more?

Sven wrote:in 1884 my german military cost 167 money, if i start a new campaign with prussia it cost 17 money that with 1.02b.
think that colonial forces cost more?

I am wondering if they really increased Naval costs, as both Britain and France have much bigger navies than Prussia? But the costs for Britain and France have gone through the roof.

Sven wrote:in 1884 my german military cost 167 money, if i start a new campaign with prussia it cost 17 money that with 1.02b.
think that colonial forces cost more?

I also started a new game with Prussia, and had the same military costs you did. So it must have something to do with the navy, or colonial troops.

New game as France with 1.02b over a fresh install and you're right. Military Unit cost is 67 Money, over 80% of government revenues. This can't be correct.

Random wrote:New game as France with 1.02b over a fresh install and you're right. Military Unit cost is 67 Money, over 80% of government revenues. This can't be correct.

yes, actually my military cost as France was 67 also, not 63. Way too high in either event.

I've resorted to reverting to the 1.02 patch due to the problems with infringement casus-belli's being thrown around and the loyalty issue in objective regions. The only downside is the diplomacy layout now sucks again ah well, compromise

Not too confidant editing PON files but discovered a coefficient in the [color="#00FF00"]...\VGN\Settings\GameLogic.OPT[/color] file that changes the unit maintenance costs. Make sure to save the original file somewhere safe.

Open the file and scroll down to Military [color="#00FF00"]Production and Decay[/color] and find the line:

milMilitaryUnitUpkeepGobalCoeffH = [color="#FF0000"]20[/color] // then multiplied further by this coefficient (x0.2)

Amend this to read:

milMilitaryUnitUpkeepGobalCoeffH = [color="#FF0000"]4 [/color] // then multiplied further by this coefficient (x0.2)

Doing this saw the per turn maintenance costs for the French to go from 67 (>80% of revenues) to 13 (~15% of revenues). Offered with no warranties...

Thanks for the workaround Random. I'll pop that in & try it.

Most of the time people say maintenance is too low, almost anectodical compared to their money income. Vaalen, if you want me to understand why you pay so much, please give me the saved game

Pocus wrote:Most of the time people say maintenance is too low, almost anectodical compared to their money income. Vaalen, if you want me to understand why you pay so much, please give me the saved game

Pocus it is the normal start of the grand campaign from 1850 (turn 1), and i understand the problem, the first turns are problematic, but if the economy run money is no problem.

Pocus wrote:Most of the time people say maintenance is too low, almost anectodical compared to their money income. Vaalen, if you want me to understand why you pay so much, please give me the saved game

Pocus, I no longer have the save game, because I used the workaround suggested by Random in post no 8 of this thread. But you should have no trouble recreating this bug if you start a 1.02b grand campaign as Britain or France., end turn, and look at the first turn support cost. Which was 143 for Britain, and 67 for France. This will give you a save game that shows the bug.

I understand that military expenditures should be a significant part of government spending in this era but what I was seeing as France was expenses on the order of 90-100% of revenue every turn once assorted replacements were purchased for the necessary stockpiling. Having played Austria in an earlier version of PON, I knew that eventually government income will likely increase and spending 100+ Money per turn on defence becomes a more reasonable percentage of the budget.

Starting out with 1.02b however, I found it impossible to spend on anything other than military upkeep, hence the file editing was an act of desperation since government money could be used for nothing else and trying to accumulate it in any quantity was futile.

Random wrote:I understand that military expenditures should be a significant part of government spending in this era but what I was seeing as France was expenses on the order of 90-100% of revenue every turn once assorted replacements were purchased for the necessary stockpiling. Having played Austria in an earlier version of PON, I knew that eventually government income will likely increase and spending 100+ Money per turn on defence becomes a more reasonable percentage of the budget.

Starting out with 1.02b however, I found it impossible to spend on anything other than military upkeep, hence the file editing was an act of desperation since government money could be used for nothing else and trying to accumulate it in any quantity was futile.

if i say you that i have with prussian around 1892 more than 1 500 000 and a income per turn around 6 500(without converting gold an gems, with i double it) what do you think?
i spend 2400 for research and only 178 for military.
I think around 1855 i had enough money to pay all research.
The only thing that hurt is the coal-problem, but with a tech 1890 i rise it from around 1000 per turn to 2000, now i can sell it and hope the AI use ist right.

After checking both the code (which has not changed) and the parameters used within the code (they don't have changed either), I see nothing suspicious. So except if by some magic the unit costs themselves have increased, I don't quite understand what could have changed.

I confirm that in 1850, GBR pays 149 £ per turn in military upkeep and Russia 26£. 26£ ... craftmen only give 15 £ and corporate taxes 16£, so it pays the army. And I'm not even counting the quarterly taxes which are in the 75£ range, all net benefice thus.

So, is it that bugged? I need to ask Generalismo what he thinks of that.

Are you sure gentlemen that this has changed since release? I tend to say no from what I see.

Hi guys!

This is a chart that I made around a year ago after doing the last changes to the military upkeep system...

I haven't updated the values on the chart since then... the differences you may see with those values and the current ones are most probably related to changes on the OOB...

Really, I do not think this has ever changed... if you didn't saw those values (or something similar)... there was something wrong on your end.

Pocus wrote:After checking both the code (which has not changed) and the parameters used within the code (they don't have changed either), I see nothing suspicious. So except if by some magic the unit costs themselves have increased, I don't quite understand what could have changed.

I confirm that in 1850, GBR pays 149 £ per turn in military upkeep and Russia 26£. 26£ ... craftmen only give 15 £ and corporate taxes 16£, so it pays the army. And I'm not even counting the quarterly taxes which are in the 75£ range, all net benefice thus.

So, is it that bugged? I need to ask Generalismo what he thinks of that.

Are you sure gentlemen that this has changed since release? I tend to say no from what I see.

Pocus,

I am absolutely sure this has changed since release. Prior to 1.02b, I started at least five games as France. In every game, the cost of the military after the first turn was insignificant. My recollection is that it was around thirteen, or less.

Now, if you start a game as France, it starts as 67, which is more than eighty percent of regular government revenues. Random had the same experience.

What I could do, if you like is revert back to 1.02, look at the starting cost for Britain and France, and compare it to the current costs. Can I revert back to 102 just by installing that patch over 1.02b?

vaalen wrote:Pocus,

I am absolutely sure this has changed since release. Prior to 1.02b, I started at least five games as France. In every game, the cost of the military after the first turn was insignificant. My recollection is that it was around thirteen, or less.

Now, if you start a game as France, it starts as 67, which is more than eighty percent of regular government revenues. Random had the same experience.

What I could do, if you like is revert back to 1.02, look at the starting cost for Britain and France, and compare it to the current costs. Can I revert back to 102 just by installing that patch over 1.02b?

The game is meant to be played with that, so you do not have a lot of surplus money early in the game... if not, you will end the game too soon.

Like I said before, if you were seeing "13" instead of "67" (look at my chart, it says 57 for France), then there was something wrong in your installation (or in the patch maybe? I cannot tell you right now ).

Like Pocus said, we didn't changed the code on this aspect, so there is nothing new... and it is completely WAD.

Generalisimo wrote:The game is meant to be played with that, so you do not have a lot of surplus money early in the game... if not, you will end the game too soon.

Like I said before, if you were seeing "13" instead of "67" (look at my chart, it says 57 for France), then there was something wrong in your installation (or in the patch maybe? I cannot tell you right now ).

Like Pocus said, we didn't changed the code on this aspect, so there is nothing new... and it is completely WAD.

Well, there were a number of patches over time. And I did keep patching over ongoing games. And the last game I started before Britain was Russia, and I had no trouble with the upkeep, which I think was 26. Knowing this is WAD for France, Britain, and the US is quite a surprise, as it is a major change from what the costs used to be. I suppose this is an effective way of slowing down the game, since you have hardly any money. And I did notice a big increase in colonial upkeep, which I assume was also WAD. But I am curious. Your chart says 57, but I always get 67 for France, which is ten more. Do you have any idea why this is?

vaalen wrote:What I could do, if you like is revert back to 1.02, look at the starting cost for Britain and France, and compare it to the current costs. Can I revert back to 102 just by installing that patch over 1.02b?

Depends on what the problem is - the only way to be completely sure is to do a clean install.
The simplest way to do this is to install a second copy in a new place - that keeps your current install good.
So install the full game, then the 1.02 patch. Start a new campaign and look at the costs. Then install 1.02b and start a new campaign and look at the costs, then go back and look at the costs for the campaign you started under 1.02.

There was a change in 1.02b that affects maintenance and the settings in the 1.02b include a line
rulUnitMaintainance = 2
With that present then it should be giving the same as 1.02.

rulUnitMaintainance = 2 was added to be sure that VGN (oops, I mean PON obviously!) had this value. If you don't have this value, then you don't produce conscripts, officers and you don't have upkeep. It is all or nothing. The rule could not alter the value of upkeep (well it could, it would be either 0 or 67 ...).

So the oddity, if oddity there is is not coming from there.

vaalen wrote:Well, there were a number of patches over time. And I did keep patching over ongoing games. And the last game I started before Britain was Russia, and I had no trouble with the upkeep, which I think was 26. Knowing this is WAD for France, Britain, and the US is quite a surprise, as it is a major change from what the costs used to be. I suppose this is an effective way of slowing down the game, since you have hardly any money. And I did notice a big increase in colonial upkeep, which I assume was also WAD. But I am curious. Your chart says 57, but I always get 67 for France, which is ten more. Do you have any idea why this is?

The chart was made a year ago when I was coding the system... then some changes were done to the OOB of many countries, that's why you see some extra cost here and there...

Like you said, the idea is to slowdown the advance of the player...