AGEOD Forums

I give up. I've tried my best to work through the bugs and to like this game. Now I'm getting frustrated. For every minute of gameplay, I spend almost 5 minutes processing the turn. I want to play the game not stare at the screen waiting. If I had a poor system then I could understand waiting but I have a quad core processor (AMD Phenom II X4 925) with 4 GB of ram and a ATI 5570 with 1 GB video ram. Maybe not super but should be more than enough for this. At this point it's like watching paint dry. I give up. The bugs, poor documentation and slow turn processing. It's just too much.

This game, IMHO, was released way too soon and gives every indication of not being tested thoroughly. Now we're the testers. Sorry but I don't like paying to be a tester. I've given this game what I think is a fair shot. I can see the potential but I didn't pay to be frustrated. I paid to be entertained and so far with this game I haven't been. When is this game actually going to be finished? Let's not talk of expansions, dlc or anything else but finishing the game. What kind of timeline are we talking about? Days? Weeks? Months? Years? I'd like to know because right now I feel as if I threw $20 away.

Never I hope, but I know that is just wishful thinking.

The thing I love the most about these games is how the developers are always tweaking, adding and tinkering with the game. Not only that makes the game more interesting because I know it is evolving but that also increases it's replayability and value exponentially.

The day I buy an AGEOD or Paradox game and just a few weeks from launch they say "It's finished" now we move on to something else, will be the day I'm probably going to stop finding their games attractive. I hope it never comes to that.

kayapo wrote:Never I hope, but I know that is just wishful thinking.

The thing I love the most about these games is how the developers are always tweaking, adding and tinkering with the game. Not only that makes the game more interesting because I know it is evolving but that also increases it's replayability and value exponentially.

The day I buy an AGEOD or Paradox game and just a few weeks from launch they say "It's finished" now we move on to something else, will be the day I'm probably going to stop finding their games attractive. I hope it never comes to that.

Well I'm not talking about tweaking or additions to the game. I'm talking about a game in a fully playable state and not what we have now with the beta patches. As I said I don't want to be a tester who paid for the privilege. I really do want to like this game. But I don't want to have to wait for a long period of time before I feel that I can actually enjoy what I paid for. Right now I feel like I wasted my money. All this does is make sure I'll be hesitant to buy any future games. I'm tired of buying software that isn't finished. If they had at least been honest about it and said the game was a work in progress then I would have the option to buy or not to buy. As it is now they got my money and I have something that is supposed to be entertaining frustrating the hell out of me.

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tevans6220 wrote:I'm talking about a game in a fully playable state and not what we have now with the beta patches.

I'm playing it, actually I can't stop playing it, so you aren't really making your case saying it isn't playble.

Although, I'm really not sure what are you looking for with a post like this one. Is it just using the internet to vent frustration?

If you are really this upset with the game and feel cheated then why are you even bothering with these forums? Move on to something else. Have you even gone to the movies and seen a bad film? Do you go back to see it again and waste your time talking about it on forums?

You need to consider the possibility that this game just might not be to your taste and stop wasting your time. Don't like the way they do business, don't buy from them. If you don't want to wait then don't wait. No reason to tell us about it.

Ranting about how their games are always on the process of being improved is like complaining to McDonalds that their food is unhealthy. Well, yeah it is the very core of their business system.

The main reason why Paradox and AGEOD appeal to many people is because of how much we can influence the development of their game and how much bang for your buck you get with just 1 game. You end up playing the same game over and over and for many years. Even with expansions included it still beats other type of games by a mile.

Go buy your latest FPS and see how long you play that and when you are done with it compare to people still playing EU3 or AACW 4-5 years from release.

If you really are that tired of this system do yourself a favor and move on, but if you actually like the game but just want to see it get better stick around and try to be a little more constructive.

Remember this is a very small company and there are limits on what they can and cannot do. Saying right on the OP that "this game is clearly untested" is not only offensive to the developers but also to the people that worked hard testing the game. Complaints can be legitimate but you can lose your case just by expressing your frustration on the wrong things.

Yes, a game of this size is a lot of work. That a developer the size of AGEOD decided to stick with says a lot about how much courage they have. This in a genre that appeal to a niche market and even worse a style and engine that won't draw a crowd. This is actually a big vote of confidence in us, the fans. The people that still make the market of hardcore strategy games survive.

kayapo wrote:I'm playing it, actually I can't stop playing it, so you aren't really making your case saying it isn't playble.

Although, I'm really not sure what are you looking for with a post like this one. Is it just using the internet to vent frustration?

If you are really this upset with the game and feel cheated then why are you even bothering with these forums? Move on to something else. Have you even gone to the movies and seen a bad film? Do you go back to see it again and waste your time talking about it on forums?

You need to consider the possibility that this game just might not be to your taste and stop wasting your time. Don't like the way they do business, don't buy from them. If you don't want to wait then don't wait. No reason to tell us about it.

Ranting about how their games are always on the process of being improved is like complaining to McDonalds that their food is unhealthy. Well, yeah it is the very core of their business system.

The main reason why Paradox and AGEOD appeal to many people is because of how much we can influence the development of their game and how much bang for your buck you get with just 1 game. You end up playing the same game over and over and for many years. Even with expansions included it still beats other type of games by a mile.

Go buy your latest FPS and see how long you play that and when you are done with it compare to people still playing EU3 or AACW 4-5 years from release.

If you really are that tired of this system do yourself a favor and move on, but if you actually like the game but just want to see it get better stick around and try to be a little more constructive.

Remember this is a very small company and there are limits on what they can and cannot do. Saying right on the OP that "this game is clearly untested" is not only offensive to the developers but also to the people that worked hard testing the game. Complaints can be legitimate but you can lose your case just by expressing your frustration on the wrong things.

Yes, a game of this size is a lot of work. That a developer the size of AGEOD decided to stick with says a lot about how much courage they have. This in a genre that appeal to a niche market and even worse a style and engine that won't draw a crowd. This is actually a big vote of confidence in us, the fans. The people that still make the market of hardcore strategy games survive.

Outstanding post!

I think it is fair to ask how long it will be until the game is stable and somewhat balanced. I bet a lot of players plan to start a new game when the next patch comes out. I am not even interested in playing anymore until the economy is fixed to reduce the money available. I am glad it has been released because many people are happy to play and provide feedback which helps improve the game faster. My totally baseless guess is that it will be a couple months before most of the major kinks are ironed out. I believe AGEOD is doing the best it can, but a game of this size means many unforeseen problems.

Meagher wrote:I think it is fair to ask how long it will be until the game is stable and somewhat balanced.
...

Indeterminate, especially with the way AGEOD constantly works to improve their game(s) for months if not years after the initial release. As it is, this game, PON, is stable enough to play now albeit with a few bugs to be ironed out. This is the same with most other games now (not just AGEOD's) and used to irritate me also. Now days, I just use the time to play around with the game(s) to learn how they work while waiting for the logic bugs to be ironed out assisting in their elimination when I can. The learning process of these games is quite detailed anyhow and with AGEOD games you'll just grow more and more frustrated waiting for the "perfect" game to start playing. Besides, if you find or suspect a logic bug while playing, you've probably learned something new from discovering it.

AND this baby came at the bargain price of $20... a steal compared to other games of this scope that also have teething problems. (Gary Grigsby's WITE at $80 comes to mind)

kayapo wrote:...

Great post in terms of both content and style!

kayapo wrote:Remember this is a very small company and there are limits on what they can and cannot do.

This time they decided to sell unfinished game with incomplete price, but that's not enough: For real honnesty they should do smaller games in order to finish them.
I can say that for I am not a fanboy of AGE engine. I don't insult (I am an Altar fanboy): I can understand those who really like AGE and want to patronize it (I somewhat did, as I bought PoN and probably won't play it), but other customers should be warned about this (like they should be warned the game is for 96DPI screens only).

ERISS wrote:This time they decided to sell incomplete game with incomplete price, but that's not enough: For real honnesty they should do smaller games in order to finish them.
I can say that for I am not a fanboy of AGE engine. I don't insult (I am an Altar fanboy): I can understand those who really like AGE and want to patronize it, but other customers should be warned about this (like they should be warned the game is for 96DPI screens only).

How can you deliver a statement about a game you don't play? Tevans has made his point after playing PON ( and sadly, I've shelved PON too for now, as he's right). Real honesty isn't reserved to devs.

Athens wrote:How can you deliver a statement about a game you don't play? Tevans has made his point after playing PON. Real honesty isn't reserved to devs.

I tried, but he game is sold again as compatible with all screens, and this feature is not in the game. So, I believe somebody when he says the game is not finished.
Too, somebody who is not honest don't make another honest. The two can be dishonest.

ERISS wrote:I tried, but he game is sold again as compatible with all screens, and this feature is not in the game. So, I believe somebody when he says the game is not finished.
Too, somebody who is not honest don't make another honest. The two can be dishonest.

you're lying. That's not the first time you're stating you haven't played PON, or RUS. You're lying, ERISS, by explaining you have played PON: you have clicked on the PON icon, and looked at the font size before closing the game to post your usual rant about here. But you have never played PON, to the real sense of this word. What interests you is just endlessly talking about font size and tutorial glitches. Each one his domains of predilection.

ERISS wrote:I tried, but he game is sold again as compatible with all screens, and this feature is not in the game...

Let's see...

Here's the system requirements from the two main sales screens:

The first is from http://www.prideofnationsgame.com

[ATTACH]15276[/ATTACH]

The second is from http://www.paradoxplaza.com/games/pride-of-nations

[ATTACH]15277[/ATTACH]

Nowhere does it state compatible with ALL screens, but AGEOD does a pretty good job of accomodating as many screen sizes as possible AND anyone who has an issue only has to convey their problem with Pocus to get some one on one help.

Furthermore, font issues are not the same as screen compatibility issues. Font issues are user adjustable in Windows but not always optimal from the game design fonts.

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This game is playable. Yes it has it's bugs but that does not stop me from playing and using this time to learn the game. I remember when AACW came out. I played it for about a month learning the game while the first couple of patch's came out. The game is one of my favorites and I play it regularly. The game is still being patched and updated. Now that is customer service. Please stop complaining about unfinished games, Civ5 needed work. War in the East needed work. They are all great games to me and playable upon purchase but needed some work. So I say play the game and learn the mechanics and wait for the next patch

Why is anyone surprised? This is a typical paradix release. Broken and full of bugs, untested and unplayable for about a year. When ageod became paradox, what did you guys expect?

Prussian Prince wrote:This game is playable. Yes it has it's bugs but that does not stop me from playing and using this time to learn the game. I remember when AACW came out. I played it for about a month learning the game while the first couple of patch's came out. The game is one of my favorites and I play it regularly. The game is still being patched and updated. Now that is customer service. Please stop complaining about unfinished games, Civ5 needed work. War in the East needed work. They are all great games to me and playable upon purchase but needed some work. So I say play the game and learn the mechanics and wait for the next patch

Well, it may be playable for some, but not acceptable for others. I´m in the second group. Simply because there are plenty of other games out there that was in better shape when released. If this was the only game in the world I would probably do as you suggest and try to learn the mechanics, but it isn´t.
It´s a shame really, since PoN has a lot of potential. But I guess that the Ageod team was a bit too ambitious for the engine to handle when they designed it.

I just wanna add that own several other Ageod games and are enjoying most of them, and I will probably by more developed by Paradox France, if they learn the lessons from this game. But I´m sad to say that this isn´t in my taste.

kayapo wrote:I'm playing it, actually I can't stop playing it, ....

As someone one said- Mega Dittos!

For the life of me, I can't understand the destructive criticism of a game that made a demo available. A demo that has dozens of more bugs than the currently available patch and whose performance is at least 25% worse.

If you played the demo, you bought with open eyes. Hopefully you did your due diligence on the devs, publisher, etc. But in any case, your money/your decision.

OTOH, if you bought without looking- caveat emptor!

This game can use all the constructive criticism buyers can offer. Destructive is just that.

tevans6220 wrote:I give up. I've tried my best to work through the bugs and to like this game. Now I'm getting frustrated. For every minute of gameplay, I spend almost 5 minutes processing the turn. I want to play the game not stare at the screen waiting. If I had a poor system then I could understand waiting but I have a quad core processor (AMD Phenom II X4 925) with 4 GB of ram and a ATI 5570 with 1 GB video ram. Maybe not super but should be more than enough for this. At this point it's like watching paint dry. I give up. The bugs, poor documentation and slow turn processing. It's just too much.

This game, IMHO, was released way too soon and gives every indication of not being tested thoroughly. Now we're the testers. Sorry but I don't like paying to be a tester. I've given this game what I think is a fair shot. I can see the potential but I didn't pay to be frustrated. I paid to be entertained and so far with this game I haven't been. When is this game actually going to be finished? Let's not talk of expansions, dlc or anything else but finishing the game. What kind of timeline are we talking about? Days? Weeks? Months? Years? I'd like to know because right now I feel as if I threw $20 away.

I don't like waiting this long for program to resolve a move either, but have started to get up, move around and do other things while the program does its thing. The time isn't suprising given the complexity of the game - and I wouldn't want to see it oversimplified just to make the turns process faster!

There are probably several things that the progamers could do to cut down the wait such as using idle time while you make moves, more efficient use of multi-core processors, etc. However, the game system seems to work - so to me processing time has a lower priority than fixing other problems that affect game play and I'm glad the developers agree.

As for the $20 cost for an incomplete game - others have already commented on it. I normally wait awhile before buying ANY computer program (including operating systems) so that they can get some of the bugs out. But for $20, it's well worth the risk! I think it was money well spent.

Fools rush in ...

I agree with much of the naysaying ...

... but I agree with much of what the fanboys say too ...

... so I'm going to take the middle ground ...

I'm unhappy with many things that AGEOD have done and continue to do (and not do!), and I hope they learn a few lessons.

(If you ask me ... who's asking? ... it's not very smart to call customers with very legitimate complaints "whiners" and such. How about a little tea and sympathy instead? Would that not be the wiser course? A fundamental business principle: The Customer Is Always Right. At least pretend it to be so, because if you don't, you alienate away your customer base, and go out of business. Simple as that.

Oh, let me rush to clarify: I am not saying that "the two Phils" are calling their customers names or stooping to ad hominem attacks -- far from it! Indeed, Phil and Phil are two of the nicest guys in the gaming business. Gentlemen always. But some members of the AGEOD forum community -- might not they hold their tongue? And try to remain civil, even if some of the AGEOD bashers do not?)

I too am unhappy, but I don't want AGEOD to go out of business. The AGE system is just so sweet! So what do I do?

I take personal responsibility to learn the system(s) inside and out, to tweak, to debug, to mod if necessary. To share what I do, if I think it generally useful. And as much as possible, keep my thoughts to myself. (If you can't say something nice, don't say anything all. At least not publicly. )

I've been away from AGEOD for the past two years. During that time, I've been "playing the field," trying out new games (WITP:AE, Squad Battles, Field of Glory, etc.) and revisiting old favorites (HPS ACW, JTBGS, JTCS, TOAW, EU3, etc.). What I've discovered is that the AGEOD games compare favorably with the rest of the field, and are superior to the competition in many respects. (Except in some details. The devil's in the details, ain't he?) What I've rediscovered is that all games are "broken" and "unfinished" more or less, that I find fault with all of them (comes as no surprise to some people around here, I'm sure). And that if I'm not to give up gaming altogether (always an option; sometimes I really would rather toss aside all the upset and stress and just "go read a history book"), I have the power and capability to tweak/debug/mod away my annoyance -- a sort of meta-gaming in itself. (Indeed, I've spent much time in the past couple of years working on graphics and game play mods and such for other companies' games.)

But that's just me. I can see where many people just want to game, not meta-game; to be entertained, not be aggravated; to get their "full money's worth," not to make allowances (and accept endless excuses).

So, I'll stick around, try to help rebuild the AGEOD player/tester/modder community, and continue to wish AGEOD well. If others want to take a walk, I can't say I blame them. But that's not a path I'm prepared to take.

Foolish no?

The first lesson is that 'Perfection does not belong to this world!'

The second I know since the last 12 years in the game industry is that there will be always complaints on the first release of the game, some of them right (because games are by essence almost never finished upon release)...and for various reasons (including many outside of the dev's will/capacity), this is NOT going to change, ever....

No company can afford pourring millions of $ (and thousands of hours) in game's QA and finishing...to reach an impossible perfection... Anyone can complain or scream, that's fact and that has not changed till game industry existed...and won't change for the years to come...

So what to do from that?

A lot of customers delay purchase from initial release, which can be the safe bet... they are in their good right ... there are however known risks that it sometimes kills a game and the company doing it when the ugly face of business shows up and says to the dev: no sale = no life....finito la musica

The second positive attitude is to trust the dev to fix their product as fast as they can and send positive remarks and justified critics...this is constructive spurr that I like, because I know about my limits and weaknesses...as long as the mood is for improvement, I like the attitude...

I really personally dislike those who take errors and weaknesses as an opportunity for bashing...especially when the bashing is totally irrelevant compared to reality (that usually the bashers have not the slightest idea of :blink ... a few times here and there I had an urge for "go to .... " and leave the whole thing down.... but hopefully my tolerant and optimistic nature comes back quickly

Anyway, we are working our best to improve the game, and it will get better with each patch....

One next is currently almost finished and you should get it in beta format soon...

Thanks to all our supporters and gaming friends

I think the issue is ultimately whether we, as consumers, want to see games of this type, and of this scope.

Hardly anyone does them. Nobody has ever tried before to simulate this period in this detail, to bring it alive like this.

When you look at all the details and systems and effort that went into this game, ask yourself, has anyone else even tried to do this?

Because of the vast scope of this game and games like this, it could not possibly be perfect on release, because no game company could afford or even arrange the amount of testing that would be required.

The only way a game like this will ever be perfected is when enough people are using it to give enough feedback to the developers, and the only way to do that is to release it, in as good a condition as time and financial resources allow.

Yes, there is much in this game that does not work well yet. And there is much in this game that is magnificent in scope and execution. The basic systems are sound and ingenious in concept, and merely have to be perfected.

I have bought all of Ageods games, starting with the first.

I know that they will continually make the game better, and fix the problems, just as they have always done. IF enough people buy the game so they have a chance to do so.

Buying this game is an investment, and I trust Ageod to do their part in fixing and enhancing it.

Given the scope and vision of this game, I am happy to buy it on release, wait for patch after patch, and enjoy what it already does well, like some of the scenarios, which are by themselves worth more than the price. And I will buy every DLC, because a project of this scope deserves my support.

If we insist on perfection out of the box, no one will ever do a game of this scope. It is a tradeoff, and frustrating at times, but it is worth it, at least to me.

"Perfect on release"? (Now, that's a straw man, if ever there was one!) No, of course not. But frequent CTDs, ubiquitous out-of-memory errors, corrupted save files, etc.? Advising everyone to quit and restart every four turns or so?

Surely all that is not acceptable, at game's first release or whenever.

Some people had every right to be mad as ...

But to AGEOD's credit, they put that behind them/us very quickly (for the most part; still a few reports of CTDs).

Yup, you can say this for AGEOD: They try harder, and they aim to please. They aim to get it right, even if their aim is sometimes at first a bit cockeyed.

Whether and how much to cut them some slack -- it's up for each customer to decide.

Is it possible for everybody to be right?

(Is it possible to overuse smilies? )

Anyway, things are looking up. Here's hoping it stays that way.

berto wrote:"Perfect on release"? (Now, that's a straw man, if ever there was one!) No, of course not. But frequent CTDs, ubiquitous out-of-memory errors, corrupted save files, etc.? Advising everyone to quit and restart every four turns or so?

...

1. I have NOT had a CTD yet with this game...

2. Corrupted save files... None of those yet either, but I'm not surprised if it does happen every once in a while to gamers. These can be caused by other services within the end users own computer interferring with the save process and is quite often dependant on what they are allowing for background services.

3. Memory leak errors are experienced by MANY other games (including those released by CA), and the KNOWN solution to avoid a crash caused by them is to restart so that the memory pointers are reset (especially if you have a memory "challenged" machine for whatever reason), hence the advise to quit and restart every once in a while! What's so unusual about that? If the gamer has a machine with only 1 to 2 GBytes of free memory to work with, he's going to have to do this more often than someone with 4 or 6 GBytes of memory but at least he can compensate for this type of bug without resorting to buying more memory if he can't afford it. Pocus is working on elliminating memory leak bugs when he can find them but sometimes they are not so easy to find and if you do some research/googling you will find that the source can be embedded in the improper compiling of the source software itself, a good example being Microsoft C++. In such a case, a programmer/developer might not ever be entirely successful in removing the source of a memory leak without converting to another software language.

edit>

(Is it possible to overuse smilies? )

It shouldn't be, but I've recently found that some people don't bother paying attention to whether a smile accompanies an attempted helpful post or not. They've already made up their minds that they don't like an answer regardless of how much sweetener you put on it.

Gray_Lensman wrote:1. I have NOT had a CTD yet with this game...

Wow, really? I love the game, but it does crash a lot on me. Since the latest patch I think it does happen predominately when I alt-tab out during the turn processing however.

Gray_Lensman wrote:Corrupted save files... None of those yet either, but I'm not surprised if it does happen every once in a while to gamers. These can be caused by other services within the end users own computer interferring with the save process and is quite often dependant on what they are allowing for background services.

I've only seen the a corrupted save file error a couple of times so far with PoN, so it's not a big deal, but I've never played another game that routinely had errors during the save process.

Also on the topic of crashes... I've noticed the game always seems to crash if I have two instances of PoN open and both are processing a turn. Once again it's a pretty small bug, but given how long the turns take I like being able to play two games at once.

Gray_Lensman wrote:1. I have NOT had a CTD yet with this game...

While I absolutely back Ageod (in general as well as for this game), CtD are a reality in PoN. But, Pocus seems to have tracked at least one of the most common ones (building scrolling) down and says it's fixed for the next patch. Other than that one, I've had the memory leak crash rather regularly, but don't consider it a serious issue as indeed all I have to do is restart PoN, load my save and continue from there (saving a lot during a turn means losing little data)...

Like you I haven't had any save game coruption yet, even if such were to occur, the age engine's autosave with backup feature is a great help there. Got a corrupted game? Go back one turn and it should be fine...

Of course PoN has other, sometimes annoying, issues. But I have faith these problems will be resolved in time. We just will have to give the two Phils and the entire team the necessary time...

By the way, once the 1.01g patch is out I vote for the entire team to take a few days off, get some rest :-D . And by no means watch the forums during that break (though have some moderators ready to step in if flame wars are to start (after all, we had this before :-( ))...

Sepiche wrote:Wow, really? I love the game, but it does crash a lot on me. Since the latest patch I think it does happen predominately when I alt-tab out during the turn processing however.

I've seen other posts concerning alt-tab crashes, but I've not encountered any yet, but I primarily use the "windows" key on my keyboard instead of "Alt-tab" and generally not during turn processing. I've made a note to myself to try this using Alt-Tab during turn processing to see if it will occur for me also, later this evening.

I've only seen the a corrupted save file error a couple of times so far with PoN, so it's not a big deal, but I've never played another game that routinely had errors during the save process.

Also on the topic of crashes... I've noticed the game always seems to crash if I have two instances of PoN open and both are processing a turn. Once again it's a pretty small bug, but given how long the turns take I like being able to play two games at once.

Since the game is suspected to have memory leak errors, it's probably not too wise too have two instances competing for the same memory space. Crashes would almost be guaranteed to occur in that combination.

edit> Basically, as soon as the first instance loaded into memory "leaks" into the space occupied by the second instance, a crash would be inevitable.

I think I asked a very legitimate question. I never said the game was unplayable. I said that the game in it's current state is frustrating and that in my opinion it could not have been thoroughly tested.

Yes there was a 12 turn demo released. Turn processing in the demo wasn't as slow as it is now. At least not for me. I want to like this game. But the game itself prevents me from doing that. I already listed the reasons why but just look at the bug forum on Paradox site. Japan events that don't fire or don't work at all. ACW events that don't work. The list goes on and on. Sure, I can soldier on and keep playing but how far can I get before running into somethng that ruins my game?

I spent 3 days showing how I thought the battle results were off in the Boer scenario and was told I didn't know how to read results, I didn't understand and I just didn't know how to play the game. Only after others started having the same type of problem, that I showed in a screenshot, did anybody admit that there could be a problem. In that scenario I never even had all options available to me until my current game. No matter how I tried, I could never build a supply depot. The button was always grayed out. Now for some reason I can. For the first time ever, White actually left the scenario when I got event Buller takes command. The point is that those things are frustrating. A tooltip tells me it takes 120 days to build a fort (8 turns). I start building a fort and it's finished next turn.

Let's not talk about the state of other games. The topic is PoN. Not how other games are released. I was very interested in PoN. If not I never would have purchased. But I buy games for entertainment purposes not to support developers and certainly not to be frustrated. My question is a very legitimate question. When is this game actually going to be finished? What we have now is a work in progress. One other thing I'll mention. I think it's inappropriate for those others affiliated with Ageod (moderators, coordinators etc.) to be degrading customers for having an opinion they don't agree with.

Is the OP the same Tevans that posted on the Paradox forums ?

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?541741-How-Do-I-Get-A-Refund

I bought the game despite the all the bugs,turn time and graphic issues I read about on the Paradox forums. Even though this is the 1st game I bought developed by Ageod, I knew that most of the bugs will eventually get fixed and the game will be in good working order in reasonable amount of time.

I was even surprised when I got the game. All those turn time and graphic issues were not an issue on my system.

I dont ever expect this game to be perfect but I know from the Dev's responses that it will continue to get better. I just hope I can learn all this stuff before they start adding in more stuffs.

I have already gotten my $20 worth of enjoyment out of the game and I have yet to try all the countries available to play. In fact Ive only played one (USA). I keep restarting a new game after each patch or after I learned how to do something that I should have been doing (Been fun learning this game, still need to figure out a few things) Each time though, its been different objectives, slightly different economics, some different wars etc....So the replayability of this game is pretty high and Ill be enjoying this $20 investment for awhile.