AGEOD Forums

I've been looking at the Gold Demo and so far am very impressed.

One 'feature' that seems to be missing, though, is the ability to re-enact the war with the exact same choices the participants made.

Why would one want to do this?

Two reasons.

First, if you want to find out if you could have won the battle of the Marne as the Germans (or, conversely, stopped the Germans at the Marne), it really doesn't do you any good if your opponent makes anything other than the exact same choices that they did historically. It doesn't do you any good if you follow the von Schlieffen plan to the letter, only to find that the French aren't using Plan XVII. That's fine for free-form play, but it doesn't address the question of whether you could have done any better than your historical counterparts (which is why you play historical as opposed to fantasy wargames). This is what changing history is really all about -- you have to be sure that what you're changing actually is history.

Second, if you can play an opponent who will make exactly all the historical choices, and you make the historical choices as well, most of the time you should get an historical result. There are a couple of reasons for wanting to have the ability to play in historical lockstep on both sides. One is to be sure that the model works -- if the final outcome doesn't look historical most of the time something needs to be tinkered with. But the other, assuming that the model is correct, is really educational -- seeing both sides behave as they actually did is very illuminating when you're trying to understand what happened and why.

So I guess what I'm asking for is a mirror set of scenarios (or maybe a toggle switch) that ensures that the other side in all of the different scenarios acts exactly as their historical counterparts did.

Well, this could be done rather easily I guess. I can make the setup as per the historical warplans, but I need just to check two aspects:

* what happens with events draw, as currently the 1914 draw is based on reciprocal warplan choices.

* what about initial diplomacy: i.e. we agree that Serbia will not capitulate and Great Britain join the fight....what about other actions (Italy, Rumania, etc...). My advice would be to cancel all other diplomacy for August 1914

Comments?

I guess you should build a scenario that starts in Military phase of 1914, so no need for Diplomacy & WarPlans phase... everything already done.

Yes, I would play such a scenario.

So would I.

Make that three of us.

No need for Diplomacy & WarPlans phase in 1914.Good decision.
Make that four of us.

PhilThib wrote:Well, this could be done rather easily I guess. I can make the setup as per the historical warplans, but I need just to check two aspects:

* what happens with events draw, as currently the 1914 draw is based on reciprocal warplan choices.

* what about initial diplomacy: i.e. we agree that Serbia will not capitulate and Great Britain join the fight....what about other actions (Italy, Rumania, etc...). My advice would be to cancel all other diplomacy for August 1914

Comments?

I haven't learned how diplomacy works yet in this game so I may be about to say something silly (please bear with me).

I wonder if it is enough to eliminate the initial diplomacy phase in August 1914. You need to have Turkey enter the war at the historically correct moment, and in any longer scenario you'd have a similar consideration for the U.S. and Italy and the Bolshevik revolution.

The timing and development of gas warfare, Stosstruppen tactics and early armored warfare also need to be factored in (or out, as the case may be).

Philippe wrote:I haven't learned how diplomacy works yet in this game so I may be about to say something silly (please bear with me).

I wonder if it is enough to eliminate the initial diplomacy phase in August 1914. You need to have Turkey enter the war at the historically correct moment, and in any longer scenario you'd have a similar consideration for the U.S. and Italy and the Bolshevik revolution.

The timing and development of gas warfare, Stosstruppen tactics and early armored warfare also need to be factored in (or out, as the case may be).

Yes,Diplomacy in 1914 will cause Turkey involved in the war at the beginning of 1914,if you send a AMB to Turkey.That is not history.It is only a small part of the problems that do not follow history.As you mentioned ,there are other problems,such as the timing of gas warfare, Stosstruppen tactics.If it is wrong that will lead the player the wrong impression of history.
If things are right,it will give the knowledge of history,which has educational
meaning.

PhilThib wrote:Well, this could be done rather easily I guess. I can make the setup as per the historical warplans, but I need just to check two aspects:

* what happens with events draw, as currently the 1914 draw is based on reciprocal warplan choices.

* what about initial diplomacy: i.e. we agree that Serbia will not capitulate and Great Britain join the fight....what about other actions (Italy, Rumania, etc...). My advice would be to cancel all other diplomacy for August 1914

Comments?

Events draw are according to the warplan choices of the both sides.
They are different when the plans are different.
Diplomacy with Italy and Rumania or other Neutral countries is no problem.
If it is not the special countries that will cause them into the war,
it is no problem to use diplomacy and war plans in 1914.
Whether adopt the diplomacy in 1914 or not depends on the favour of the designer.

Philippe wrote:...
I wonder if it is enough to eliminate the initial diplomacy phase in August 1914. You need to have Turkey enter the war at the historically correct moment, and in any longer scenario you'd have a similar consideration for the U.S. and Italy and the Bolshevik revolution.

The timing and development of gas warfare, Stosstruppen tactics and early armored warfare also need to be factored in (or out, as the case may be).

We can do a historical setup, but what follows in gameplay terms cannot be predictable.

Understood, but at least the game starts historically.

calvinus wrote:I guess you should build a scenario that starts in Military phase of 1914, so no need for Diplomacy & WarPlans phase... everything already done.

great idea.

ive actually played my own historical scenario by restarting the campaign several times till the ai finally chooses the historical warplans.

sometimes this took a long time.

Should this scenario end in Jan. 1915?

I would say initially yes, but you might also (later) create a Grand Campaign for the whole war that starts historically too.

i myself would prefer a campaign game with a historical start.

the repercussions of the historical war plans chosen in real life, echoed throughout the entire war.