ohms_law wrote:I've only seen a couple of "bloodbath" battles, myself (across several different games).
I'm not saying that there's nothing at all wrong with the new rules or patch. Also, I'm not really seeing exactly what different people are doing with their games and their troops. More detailed battle reports would certainly help all of us evaluate things better.
Still, the crying seems like an overreaction, to me. I can't get over the thought that some people just need to play better. I'm rather enjoying the rules this way, myself.
Quit trying to attack across rivers, and against opponents that outnumbers you (haven't you guys ever heard of the "only attack with 3:1 odds in your favor" rule of thumb?!).
richfed wrote:That is way off. The "crying" is precisely for opposite reasons. I'm not playing to "win," I am playing to see what happens in the beta version. I am not an "under the hood" guy. I am simply a "player" and would like the game to meet my expectations, or, at least find out why my expectations are wrong.
Anyway, I feel like something is wrong and am just trying to bring that to the attention of other players & the developers to consider. I have started 4 campaigns thus far with this patch and the results have been similar in all - both due to my moves AND Athena's. Easily reproducible.
As an example: I have attached 3 turns & logs. At Manassas, Longstreet is attacked by Athena with a corps numbering 19,000. They are wiped out. In another case, Magruder moves to Hampton Roads to relieve a besieged garrison. Forces are fairly equal. Battle ends & nearly all of Magruder's elements are apparently "in the red" [completely red]. This could be a graphical error, as the next turn his division still numbers 7,000 men. Not sure if I am reading reports properly. I am the CSA.
So:
- Possible graphical/battle report glitches
- retreat and/or disengagement is heavily skewed toward continuing the battle regardless of factors that ought to dissuade further action
- small, independent units make suicide moves
When I play, I want to assume, and be comfortable in the knowledge, that game mechanics are functioning according to plan. That's why I always try the betas.
ohms_law wrote:Athena, as always, needs help. Especially following new rules changes.
What you're saying in this reply is much different than your earlier post, though.
"I feel like something is wrong and am just trying to bring that to the attention of other players & the developers" is distinctly different than "In all my days of playing, and that is since AACW first came out, I never recall losing an entire corps."
VigaBrand wrote:+1
Example:
Lee escaped easily after Gettysburgh.
ohms_law wrote:Unless you think that he just messed up the combat code in general somehow (based on some other information that I'm not aware of?).
ohms_law wrote:Those aren't the types of encirclement that we're referring to here, pgr. You're talking about encirclement at the strategic level, through maneuver, which had been a principal tenant of warfare since at least Napoleon's wars early in the century. What people are complaining about here are "blitzkrieg" style tactical encirclement.
Anyway, Ace:
"Something in the battle engine is stopping retreat despite available retreat options."
That would clearly be the ZOC rule that Pocus enabled for this patch. Unless you think that he just messed up the combat code in general somehow (based on some other information that I'm not aware of?).
richfed wrote:That is way off. The "crying" is precisely for opposite reasons. I'm not playing to "win," I am playing to see what happens in the beta version. I am not an "under the hood" guy. I am simply a "player" and would like the game to meet my expectations, or, at least find out why my expectations are wrong.
Anyway, I feel like something is wrong and am just trying to bring that to the attention of other players & the developers to consider. I have started 4 campaigns thus far with this patch and the results have been similar in all - both due to my moves AND Athena's. Easily reproducible.
As an example: I have attached 3 turns & logs. At Manassas, Longstreet is attacked by Athena with a corps numbering 19,000. They are wiped out. In another case, Magruder moves to Hampton Roads to relieve a besieged garrison. Forces are fairly equal. Battle ends & nearly all of Magruder's elements are apparently "in the red" [completely red]. This could be a graphical error, as the next turn his division still numbers 7,000 men. Not sure if I am reading reports properly. I am the CSA.
So:
- Possible graphical/battle report glitches
- retreat and/or disengagement is heavily skewed toward continuing the battle regardless of factors that ought to dissuade further action
- small, independent units make suicide moves
When I play, I want to assume, and be comfortable in the knowledge, that game mechanics are functioning according to plan. That's why I always try the betas.
pgr wrote:There is a bit more going on than just the ZOC stuff. He tweaked the retreat code a bit, and he added a check based of presence of an enemy in an offensive stance. This is causing instability (some retreats are happening normally, while others mis-fire).
pgr wrote:Ohms, I think you are splitting hairs a bit between tactical and stratigic levels. In game terms, "tactical" encirclements happen in region after every retreat via the pursuit system. (based on. cav units in both sides, x number of hits are inflicted on the retreating stack). This system dosen't get people riled up... even though one could argue ACW cav wasn't used that often in the tactical pursuit role (or in battfield charges for that matter either).
What you call, stratigic level encirclements in game would be at the regional level when a region gets completely surrounded by hostile MC. I put my examples above firmly in this category. The ZOC rules applying to retreat seem completely appropriate to me, because they apply to every other kind of movement.
If at the start of a turn I am cohabiting a region with a hostile stack, and I have to fight through him to get to the red ZOC regions beyond, why should I be able to loose that battle and retreat to those very same regions? (which is what disregarding the min MC and ZOC rules in retreat allows)
Captain_Orso wrote:Hi richfed,
so I finally found some time to have a look at you backups, and I can't make hide nor hair of them. They don't seem to be 3 consecutive moves, but 3 moves which coincidentally are in chronological order (3 consecutive turns), but not turns which were executed one after the other.
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