[PON] World In Conflict - General Discussion Thread

[Lindi]

Ok, so I can post in Diplomacy thread a answer by France for the Italy not accept the peace proposition ?

[PhilThib]

I am back from vacation. I'll get back to this game progressively during the week and let you know when we restart

[PhilThib]

The turn has been reprocessed and is now on dropbox, with the main change being Italy refusing the German-British peace agreement for its war with Turkey (therefore this war continues). All other elements processed as per previous Zürich conference proposals.

The idea would be to restart the campaign on September 1st, i.e. next Sunday, with the January 1886 turn. NB: I have noted that Unclejoe leaves Belgium to the AI

Players can start posting and act diplomatically from now

[coolbean]

Gentlemen, I am currently in the process of moving cities while I change jobs. I don't think I will have a reliable internet connection for two weeks, so anyone can feel free to submit turns for me in that time if they wish. I hope to be back by Sept. 13th

[PhilThib]

Because next weekend is Labour Day weekend in the USA, first turn of 1886 will be postponned to tuesday September 3rd (request from our American friends)

[Leibst]

ok, Austria will be ready.

[bjfagan]

I noticed that part of this massive peace deal from Zurich includes Britain handing over the Sahara to France. However, I do not recall Britain having a protectorate there nor having 78 CP in Kufrah, yet this is exactly what France received. I don't understand all this colony swapping among countries that should be antagonistic towards each other and jockeying for power of the other. It seems that many countries are all in the same bed playing with each other. I am surprised that France and Germany have not gotten married yet.

I guess our game has become nothing more than a colony trading game with some minor economic tinkering thrown in for fun.

[PhilThib]

France and Britain exchanged their respeictive holdings in Sahara and Sudan...basically the script transfers all what one's own to the other, and vice versa...so in the end, the CP of both nation adds up...there is nothing more than that in the script (using the chgRgnOwner commad)

And obviously if Italy prefers war, no problem, she'll get a big one one her hands very soon (see next post)

[PhilThib]

Germany, in agreement with Britain, is demanding that Italy irrevocably accepts the joint Germano-British white peace offer in her war against the Ottomans.

Acceptance shall be received at the German embassy in Zürich no later than next tuesday noon, before the mid of January 1886. Failing which, Germany will declare war to Italy on January 15th, 1886. Operations will start in February 1886, as per recognized international behavior (unless Italy backs down from war at the last minute).

Germany and the nations supporting the Zürich Peace Conference have as sole goal that hostilities cease (no territorial claims whatsoever). The Italian government will bear sole responsbility in not positively answering the proposal of the European concert of nations and will be held accountable for all excessive loss of life or damage to civilians.

[Soulstrider]

Hi

Well regarding my health issue it has improved a bit but not healed unfortunately, however though I am in condition to return to the game I am going on Erasmus soon and therefore since I assume that the first week or so will be quite busy to say the least, I don't think it's worth for me to return now just so I can go in a few days on hiatus again.

[Sir Garnet]

I can send them to you by mail, but not before monday, as I am away from home now. I have not disbanded any units from anyone, so if it happened, this is either player action or game mechanics

I am assuming the game does not spontaneously disband units so it would be scripted, such as by an event, or the result of some player action - I don't believe there was any action that could be related to it.

Would disbanding those two Canadian divisions be from an event in the files (any idea what type of event file that might be?) I did take a look and can't relate this to historical developments and did not find it in the several event files I looked at (it would help to know what term to search for - I tried "Canada" as that was in the name of each division).

Would the disband appear in one of the logs that I might take a look at?

[PhilThib]

The game does disband units in one case: when those units are labelled with the *Mobilize* attribute (the case of most reserve units)...they are raised for free when at war, then they are disbanded for free when peace returns. IMHO, I suspect that your 2 Canadian units were reserve units (yes, Canadians have them) and that when Britain made peace with Mahdist they were disbanded (i.e. returned to the 'pool' in case of a future mobilization). I had a similar issue with 2 German Reserve Corps.

[bjfagan]

Germany, in agreement with Britain, is demanding that Italy irrevocably accepts the joint Germano-British white peace offer in her war against the Ottomans.

Acceptance shall be received at the German embassy in Zürich no later than next tuesday noon, before the mid of January 1886. Failing which, Germany will declare war to Italy on January 15th, 1886. Operations will start in February 1886, as per recognized international behavior (unless Italy backs down from war at the last minute).

Germany and the nations supporting the Zürich Peace Conference have as sole goal that hostilities cease (no territorial claims whatsoever). The Italian government will bear sole responsbility in not positively answering the proposal of the European concert of nations and will be held accountable for all excessive loss of life or damage to civilians.

Italy is at a loss as to how Germany could support Italy's war against the Ottomans when it first started, then without reason or provocation switch to threatening to attack Italy just as it was starting to gain ground. This appears to be more an emotional knee jerk reaction than the policy of a deliberative government. The Italian war started and was conducted between two countries of equal strength. This war is a minor sideshow that does not affect the major powers.

So, why now all of a sudden does Germany and France feel they have to jump on Italy to save the Ottomans? What happened to the outrage against Germany steamrolling over Portugal? Is Italy correct in assuming that only the major powers are allowed to acquire territory? Is it true that only Germany can be a belligerent? Is it true that only France can take colonies from others? Is this the world opinion? Why are the other major powers Great Britain, Russia and the USA just cowering in their corners, afraid to confront the menace of Germany forcing its opinion on all the others?



(OOC: I also noticed that diplomatic relations between Italy and other countries were also negatively affected in the script. This is unfair and arbitrary. Just because a nation attends a conference, does not mean joining or approving the final resolution is automatic. How were the negative relations determined? Was it just a random number?

Also, France now has a protectorate in the Sahara and as I said before, I do not recall Britain ever establishing one.)

[Lindi]

(OOC : For Sahara if British have no protectora I am total ok for return to normal area.

Is only my opinion, so for the the negative relation with script, is more because now Ottoman is ally of Germany, French and Autrichia (see the Block PABEVICO) and you had the support of the British alliance, so if France continu to claim tunisia and attack for defense Ottoman before the conference you can see a World Wars in 1885 , So for don't have that you have the two big leady of each alliance, British and Germany talk for avoid that, and the only country not fallow the peace solution is you, so for me is same if in 1980 a country in war enter in Otan or Warsaw Pact and the country who war with the new country of this pact not accept peace, the USSR go war for stop that.....)

[bjfagan]

(OOC : For Sahara if British have no protectora I am total ok for return to normal area.

Is only my opinion, so for the the negative relation with script, is more because now Ottoman is ally of Germany, French and Autrichia (see the Block PABEVICO) and you had the support of the British alliance, so if France continu to claim tunisia and attack for defense Ottoman before the conference you can see a World Wars in 1885 , So for don't have that you have the two big leady of each alliance, British and Germany talk for avoid that, and the only country not fallow the peace solution is you, so for me is same if in 1980 a country in war enter in Otan or Warsaw Pact and the country who war with the new country of this pact not accept peace, the USSR go war for stop that.....)

The Ottomans were not in an alliance when the war started. Your example of the USSR defending the Warsaw Pact applies if a country was a member of the WP when it was attacked.

[PhilThib]

Italy is at a loss as to how Germany could support Italy's war against the Ottomans when it first started, then without reason or provocation switch to threatening to attack Italy just as it was starting to gain ground. This appears to be more an emotional knee jerk reaction than the policy of a deliberative government. The Italian war started and was conducted between two countries of equal strength. This war is a minor sideshow that does not affect the major powers.

So, why now all of a sudden does Germany and France feel they have to jump on Italy to save the Ottomans? What happened to the outrage against Germany steamrolling over Portugal? Is Italy correct in assuming that only the major powers are allowed to acquire territory? Is it true that only Germany can be a belligerent? Is it true that only France can take colonies from others? Is this the world opinion? Why are the other major powers Great Britain, Russia and the USA just cowering in their corners, afraid to confront the menace of Germany forcing its opinion on all the others?

Germany can only respond for herself and for the feedback received from other main powers. We always favored diplomatic discussions and agreements against war (the latter being resorted to when one party refuse to or can''t negotiate). We said to Italy that colonial matters were potentially solvable via a limited war, but we made it clear from start we would not accept Italian conquests over OE main land holdings... When Germany attacked Portugal, it was agreed beforehand with other powers that conquests would be fairly shared. All this was publicly anounced too, and respected in the latest peace agreement.

Despite many requests from all sides, Italy never made her position clear and refused to talk to her opponent once it had achieved her colonial goal, despite Turkish offerings. Later on, when the great powers offer a mediation and suggest a peace that could be a starting point for future agreements resolved peacefully, Italy never participated in the talks and just bluntly rejected the offer the other nations had endeavoured to present. At some point, the Italian government is the only one to be blamed for its predicament because of its permanent and stubborn refusal of discussions and participation in the concert of nations. Where are the Italian war goals? Where are the Italian peace demands? Where are the Italian diplomatic counterproposals? Nowhere, because Rome did not care to join the concert of nations for civilized talks and exchanges...so now, the price is to be paid.

All main nations, starting with Germany, Britain, Russia, Austria-Hungary and France, still agree that war can be avoided: Rome just has to immediately accept the Zürich peace offer and then open a separate discussion with OE for future understandings that they can negotiate between themselves (with or without a third-party arbitrator, your mutual choice).

OOC: For Sahara, instructions received and applied were that France gets a protectorate there. I did not check what they had on map beforehand. If France and Britain agree, this will be reverted. For the conclusion of the conference, I applied instructions for crisis resolution (with the participants, separated into those who accept and those who refuse the proposals, then the engine applies diplomatic results automatically)

[loki100]

I am assuming the game does not spontaneously disband units so it would be scripted, such as by an event, or the result of some player action - I don't believe there was any action that could be related to it.

Would disbanding those two Canadian divisions be from an event in the files (any idea what type of event file that might be?) I did take a look and can't relate this to historical developments and did not find it in the several event files I looked at (it would help to know what term to search for - I tried "Canada" as that was in the name of each division).

Would the disband appear in one of the logs that I might take a look at?

as ever utterly fascinating stuff

about the disband of reserves - I'm pretty sure it happens at the end of June or end of December after wars are concluded. Its not automatic to the end of war, so if you are not expecting it then it can be confusing.

good thing, as I've learnt, if you raise them again, they come back with all the experience they gained in an earlier war.

[bjfagan]

Germany can only respond for herself and for the feedback received from other main powers. We always favored diplomatic discussions and agreements against war (the latter being resorted to when one party refuse to or can''t negotiate). We said to Italy that colonial matters were potentially solvable via a limited war, but we made it clear from start we would not accept Italian conquests over OE main land holdings... When Germany attacked Portugal, it was agreed beforehand with other powers that conquests would be fairly shared. All this was publicly anounced too, and respected in the latest peace agreement.

If Germany had cared to ask before threatening war, Italy would have gladly explained that it only wanted colonial territory, but in order to force a reluctant OE to the peace table, we had to attack main land holdings. Why didn't Germany just state that Italy had to pull out of the Balkans and everything would be okay? Why let the war go on and then silently behind the scenes build up a coalition to jump on Italy? Germany has a funny way of conducting foreign policy and throwing away their friends... or more likely stabbing them in the back. Italy is glad to see that attacking a country and stealing their territories is okay, IF you get other countries to agree on sharing the spoils. So announcing that you are going to rape Portugal beforehand, makes the rape legal? Is that the German way?

Despite many requests from all sides, Italy never made her position clear and refused to talk to her opponent once it had achieved her colonial goal, despite Turkish offerings.

The Ottomans never once offered anything and never once asked to discuss Italian goals. As a matter of fact, the Ottomans did state publicly that they would never agree to any peace deal. So the Germans should refrain from making false accusations.

Later on, when the great powers offer a mediation and suggest a peace that could be a starting point for future agreements resolved peacefully, Italy never participated in the talks and just bluntly rejected the offer the other nations had endeavoured to present.

Italy was never offered anything other than losing territory to France. It is totally preposterous for the Germans to suggest that Italy should sit at the conference table to watch the great powers divide up the world, including the rape of Portugal and then should be happy that we are only threatened with destruction if we don't accept the white peace thrown at our feet. German hospitality can be so cold.

At some point, the Italian government is the only one to be blamed for its predicament because of its permanent and stubborn refusal of discussions and participation in the concert of nations.

Italian stubbornness has no impact on discussions that already have a predetermined outcome. The Germans and their French lap dogs were already planning to ruin Italy, so we are sorry that we did not happily join the discussions that would lead to our demise.

Where are the Italian war goals? Where are the Italian peace demands? Where are the Italian diplomatic counterproposals? Nowhere, because Rome did not care to join the concert of nations for civilized talks and exchanges...so now, the price is to be paid.

These were provided to Great Britain when she asked for them. Presumably these would have been revealed in the Zurich conference discussions that took place behind Italy's back.

All main nations, starting with Germany, Britain, Russia, Austria-Hungary and France, still agree that war can be avoided: Rome just has to immediately accept the Zürich peace offer and then open a separate discussion with OE for future understandings that they can negotiate between themselves (with or without a third-party arbitrator, your mutual choice).

And submit to German domination! Just like Great Britain and Russia? Italy maintained friendly relations with Germany and never did anything to provoke this harsh reaction. We do not believe in running scared at the sight of a German shadow, as the others powers do. It is obvious that Germany's dominance has caused it to get power hungry and force other countries to submit to its will... or suffer the fate of Portugal.

[PhilThib]

All these points are quite interesting... Italy still does not answer to the question about HER goals, proposals or demands and continuous silence (the victim's posture is a a posteriori justification)... To make offers and receive ones, a discussion must go both ways...No one ever knew what Italy wanted, or the public posting of it was missed by all powers... And if a negotiation has to take place, one party has to communicate with the other(s) beyond mere insults (saying other powers are lapdogs or lackeys won't make them look Italy positively for sure)

Similarly, If something was (ever) provided to Britain, Her Majesty's government either never received it or failed to communicate it to us when we jointly prepared the conference agenda.

So now, there are only 2 possible outcomes: either Italy publicly states her war goals and proposals and asks them to be openly and equitably discussed AFTER she has accepted the white peace offer setup by the concert of nations (after which a new conference about the OE-Italian conflict could be held)... or she continues to follow the current path of alienating all other powers and face the consequences and there won't be further comments from us.

[coolbean]

I'm back.

Thanks to Sir Garnet for helping me along while I moved cities/jobs.

Sorry if I missed anything.

I will be able to submit turns, but will be busy with the new job, so am still willing to hand over RUS should a player come along that wants to take over more dutifully.

[Ech Heftag]

I'll be in Vienna this weekend and might be unable to submit turns until Tuesday.

[PhilThib]

Will, AI will take over, no problem

[Lindi]

Just for Know bjfagan you continue to play Italy or not?

Because if is not, maybe do a white peace now....

(In next week end if no playeur do that I try to post All country are free now, for watch if new playeur are motived for play )

[PhilThib]

I am up to my neck with CW2 release this week. I'll do some summary of game state early next week (or durig the weekend)

[Lindi]

I know, is not obligation is you... I post here for see the opinion of the other playeur...

For list I try do that in this week-end, I watch all turn in this years, who play, and who not play and I post here the list of country no play.

If a country are playeur but not play in this time he can said that here... xD

and after a week I create a other post in forum for find new playeur with this list

[bjfagan]

Now that Germany has shown the world that they can destroy a 7th place power, for no good reason than just for the fun of it, I am not sure what Germany and Austria want. This war was pointless and really groundless. If those two only want a white peace then I will send it. However, I was under the impression they were enjoying their chance to totally destroy a country and I would hate to deprive them of their only fun.

[Soulstrider]

I have to announce I will have to abandon all my PoN games. I arrived in Belgium recently but I came to discover I have a very small internet limit, so I can't afford having the dropbox constantly download stuff every day. (Hell by only watching youtube videos, in 3 days I used 20% of it)

[Jim-NC]

I (USA) will be with the BSA this weekend. My son will be taking over for a few turns. He will not be posting on the forum.

[Leibst]

Now that Germany has shown the world that they can destroy a 7th place power, for no good reason than just for the fun of it, I am not sure what Germany and Austria want. This war was pointless and really groundless. If those two only want a white peace then I will send it. However, I was under the impression they were enjoying their chance to totally destroy a country and I would hate to deprive them of their only fun.

Not fun at all for Austria. Let wait for Germany to talk about peace terms. We are just doing what is expected from an ally.

@JIM, what is a BSA?

[PhilThib]

The peace terms have been demanded and expressed all over the place since weeks: Italy must accept white peace with Ottoman Empire, as required by Zürich treaties...that's all what the civilized community wanted and asks. Germany wants nothing out of this. But it seemed easier to the Italian government to ignore it, then abandon the fate of the country to unknown leadership (= AI) after having created all the mess in the first place. The pointlessness and goundlessness was in Rome with the failure to acknowledge international demands which were quite reasonable, as nothing was asked more than swallowing ill-placed pride and accept the situation when faced with a deadlock... it was probably easier to just do nothing and blame Athena for the poor final showing in the end...not counting the devastation and loss of investment that resulted.