Finnish Civil War

[marcusjm]

I think you guys should leave this game open for a Finnish Civil War expansion/addon as well. The Finnish Civil War was directly tied to the events in Russia.

A large part of my own relatives took part in the War(mostly white side) so it would certainly be interesting.

At least leave some parameters open for it.

Also, one should not forget the events in Latvia and Estonia.

Ok, I just found the least bulletpoint but let's change this topic to be about the facts about this war instead . Now I know I will buy this at least.

[Rafiki]

From the announcement:

Find out unique campaigns covering each one of the years of the war in Russia, as well as the Finnish Civil War (1918) or the Russian-Polish war (1920). Or rewrite history with an ambitious « what if » scenario.

So you don't need to wait for an add-on or expansion

[marcusjm]

From the announcement:

So you don't need to wait for an add-on or expansion

I was faster than you though (see edit) .

I will gladly take part in any discussion about the Finnish Civil War though. My grandfather was one of those who recieved a medal from Mannerheim personally but I had others who were part of it too.

The events in Latvia that took part before the Russian Revolution does not seem to be modeled though. Maybe more scenario material than expansion though.

[Xornox]

I thought first that why I would like to play Russian revolution, but then I understood that this would be great opportunity to learn something new and then there is even Finnish civil war scenario! This is clear Must buy game! Thanks for creating something different. That does not happen too often nowadays.

[Ardie]

Would it be possible for Finnish players to check the Finnish language in the upcoming game?

Meaning city, town, province, area and unit names.

I already spotted the river "Vuoksi" is written as "Vuoski".

[PhilThib]

We don't have Finns on the board, but you are welcome to provide information

At the present time, we are looking for pictures of Finnish uniforms 1918-1920, could you find some?

[tagwyn]

Arne: Perhaps the infamous war between the Kenyans and the Goobie doobies? At least there would be no kibbitzing on this game!! HOOPY Dooby? t

[Rafiki]

Tag, I have no idea what your problem with this game really is; we've long since understood that it won't be your cup of tea, but if you have read what other people have been posting about it, you'll see that it has garnered a good amount of interest already, both here and at other forums.

[Carnium]

Tag, I have no idea what your problem with this game really is; we've long since understood that it won't be your cup of tea, but if you have read what other people have been posting about it, you'll see that it has garnered a good amount of interest already, both here and at other forums.

[Rafiki]

[color="Blue"]Carnium, if you have any views on forum moderation policies, I would very much like to hear them, but in private, i.e. PM or chat. Name-calling in public has no place hereabouts.[/color]

[marcusjm]

What tagwyn fails to understand due to lack of education is this. If Finland had been red then obviously they would have been on the other side of the war, making invasion of Norway much less likely and so forth.

Learn to use the gray mass between the ears.

Here you can find some intersting multimedia:
http://www.vapaussota.com/multimedia/index.html

I have uniforms in the form of photos of my own relatives, my grandfather took part in all the important battles like Tampere, Viipuri and some others.

[PhilThib]

Excellent, I'd like to get those uniforms if the photos are not too "confidential". You can send them by mail to pthibaut@ageod.net

[J P Falcon]

Is Rüdiger Graf von der Goltz and the Freikorp represented in the game?

[PhilThib]

Yes, of course

[Rafiki]

Learn to use the gray mass between the ears.

[color="Blue"]Marcus, make sure to stick to the high road; no need for more people to try derailing this trhead [/color]

[Jarkko]

The link marcusjm gives above is quite nice, however as it is a Flash site in Finnish, it is not that easy for a non-Finnish person to navigate there (and because it is a Flash site, direct links to relevant pages/pictures can't be given; or at least I don't know how to do that).

For an informative site (with pictures ) in English about Finnish uniforms, surf to:
http://mosinnagant.net/finland/FinnishTunicsectionrevised.asp

The thing about Finnish Civil War is that it was pretty much a civil war. People fought in what ever clothes they happened to have. The first official "white" uniform was issued in 1918, but very few men actually got to wear it. Old Russian, Swedish and German uniforms were used, but most of the time just plain civil clothes with either a white or red piece of cloth attached to the outfit; on white side around the left arm, on red side around either arm or as a bandana (only during summer time according to anecdotal evidence) or attached to the hat.

Some pictures from other sites:



A band of reds from Jämsä



A few members of the whites from near Jyväskylä



Members of the white guard on churh stairs in Nummi (between Helsinki, Tampere and Turku (Åbo)). Notice the different uniforms, there are at least two types of german uniforms, swedish uniforms and a couple men in old russian uniforms too



A squad of red women from near Tampere. There were many women fighting on the red side, usually not in the frontline (although there were women fighting in the frontlines too), but usually acting as guards, messengers etc



A member of the red guard from Helsinki

[PhilThib]

Wonderful

[marcusjm]

They are not confidential by any means but I need a scanner, but those pictures above seem very nice.

[Baris]

Great pictures thanks I looked at that web adress marcusjm gave but unfortunately Finnish . I could't understand a word. History can be learned from some books and internet but nothing to compare to stories told by grandfathers or who had experience in the war. No doubt it is more honest and detailed. Thats why I looked at the adress.

"The thing about Finnish Civil War is that it was pretty much a civil war. People fought in what ever clothes they happened to have. The first official "white" uniform was issued in 1918, but very few men actually got to wear it" by Jarkko

It should be true. Main enemy is winter. In the Ottoman-Russia war, it is told that winter protection from well-made uniforms was crucial for victory. Also effected the morale of armies, Maybe can be implemented in the game



Edit: Thank you and thank you I remembered I have read somewhere but couldnt find the link again. Engine is evolving to a more complex and a historical way. excellent and thanks for your efforts.

[PhilThib]

Well...this is in the game .... we have developped a new attribute for units, called *winterized*, that protects units from winter effects...totally or partially

[Ardie]

Well...this is in the game .... we have developped a new attribute for units, called *winterized*, that protects units from winter effects...totally or partially

That's good to know if you're ever going to do the Winter War... (cough, cough)

Here's some more links to pics and videos...

http://www.kansanarkisto.fi/kanssota/

http://www.kansanarkisto.fi/kanssota/pansjuna.htm (armored train and more)

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Suomen+sis%C3%A4llisota&aq=f (videos in youtube)

http://www.palasuomenhistoriaa.net/kuvat/puvut/ (uniforms used by the Finnish army from 1918 - 1945)

http://www.artista.fi/tpa2trailer/tpa2.html (movie trailer - Here under the northern star)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUfXos1_3R0 (movie excerpt and trailer -Border 1918)

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During the early war the protagonists wore mostly civilian clothes with a arm band which showed their allegiance (red for rebels and white for government forces).

The Army of the Republic of Finland was born during this war...the nucleus was the 27th Royal Prussian Jaeger Battalion composed of Finnish volunteers.

The Civic Guards formed the bulk of the rank and file for the whites.

The reds had russian revolutionary officers and some 20000 Russian soldiers.

The whites had the Swedish Volunteer Brigade and later the German Baltic Division.

[Nikel]

Another link, with multimedia, video, pics. Just a guess as I have no idea of finnish or of the finnish civil war Perhaps a native finnish can comment?


http://www.vapaussota.com/

[Jarkko]

Another link, with multimedia, video, pics. Just a guess as I have no idea of finnish or of the finnish civil war Perhaps a native finnish can comment?


http://www.vapaussota.com/

Check post #11 from marcusjm in this thread

[Nikel]

Check post #11 from marcusjm in this thread

Oops, sorry, missed that one


In the wikipedia the article is called sisällissota, so what is vapaussota?

Sota has to be war, in spanish we have that word and of course has a different meaning

[Jarkko]

During the early war the protagonists wore mostly civilian clothes with a arm band which showed their allegiance (red for rebels and white for government forces).

The first uniform of Finnish Army which was issued to all conscripts was the model 1922 uniform (and thus well after the Finnish civil war), and during the FCW civil clothes was the norm (not just early in the war ). In fact even during the Winter War (in 1939-1940) thousands of reservists still fought in civil clothes, they were just given a cockade to be attached to the hat, and a gun with which to shoot.

The arm band was a thing on the white side. According to the regulation the white arm band was to be tied on the left arm. On the red side there was no formal code, but a red piece of cloth had to be attached somewhere visibly on the clothes (not necessarily on the arm, in fact many pictures of reds show the red cloth being on the hat).

[Jarkko]

In the wikipedia the article is called sisällissota, so what is vapaussota?

It is still debated what the incidents of 1918 should be called. Finlands biggest newspaper (Helsingin Sanomat, aka "The Helsinki Messages" freely translated) has a weekly magazine and there is every week a celebrity from who various questions are asked (like for example "How do you call the incidents of 1918 in Finland?", "On a a scale of 1 - 10, how hairy is your butt?"; the most funny answers are from those international celebrities who don't actually know what on earth the questions are about ).

Anyway, here are a few terms people might use:

Sisällissota - Civil War
Vapaussota - Freedom War
Veljessota - War between brothers
Itsenäisyyssota - War of Independence
Kansalaissota - War of the People
Luokkasota - War between classes
Torpparisota - War of the Crofters
Murrossota - War of Change (literally, "War of Breaking")
Lahtarisota - War of Slaughter
Punakapina - The Red Rebellion
Punainen Vallankumous - The Red Coup
Vuoden 1918 tapahtumat - The incidents of 1918


Right after the war it was usually called by moderates (both by left and right politicians) Vapaussota, aka Freedom War. The intention was to prove that Finns actually fought against Russia, and a few Finns had just been led astray by Russian bolsheviks, and the war (and all the horrors that happened during the war) was in fact the fault of the Russian bolsheviks. The term and explanation was chosen so as to cure the bad-blood between those who lost the civil war.


In 2008 one of the leading newspapers (Aamulehti) in Finland made a gallup to which thousands of people answered. The question was "How do you call the incidents of 1918?" and the answers were as follows:
Civil War 29 %, War of the People 25 %, War between Classes 13 %, Freedom War 11 %, Red Rebellion 5 %, Red Coup 1 %, Something else 2 %, Don't know what they should be called 14 %

[Nikel]

lol

Thanks for the detailed answer

Before this I had only heard about Talvisota, that by the way has its own game based on Blitzkrieg engine

http://talvisota.net/

[Carnium]

lol

Thanks for the detailed answer

Before this I had only heard about Talvisota, that by the way has its own game based on Blitzkrieg engine

http://talvisota.net/

The movie with the same name is also GREAT.
Finnish war movies are the best IMHO

[Cat Lord]

Anyway, here are a few terms people might use:

Sisällissota - Civil War
Vapaussota - Freedom War
Veljessota - War between brothers
Itsenäisyyssota - War of Independence
Kansalaissota - War of the People
Luokkasota - War between classes
Torpparisota - War of the Crofters
Murrossota - War of Change (literally, "War of Breaking")
Lahtarisota - War of Slaughter
Punakapina - The Red Rebellion
Punainen Vallankumous - The Red Coup
Vuoden 1918 tapahtumat - The incidents of 1918

Very interesting, I didn't know that.

Thanks,

Cat