Empire Total War is coming... and an expansion too?

[dooya]

Johan from paradoxplaza vs Kieran from Creative Assembly:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=407726

AFAIK, Empire: Total War uses this concept (not just F.E.A.R. :P) to great success (haven't played it, so I wouldn't know how well it works in strategy games,

Sorry, I don't have time to talk about our AI atm, but I was not aware of there being an AI in Empire Total War.

But yeah, we've been using goal-oriented plans driving our ai's since eu1. You can't determine hiw the AI in the older engine works by the cripple-scripts that it has to make the AI just do historical things.

@Johan:

Hi there Johan. This is Kieran from the Creative Assembly, the chaps behind Empire.

Forgive me if I cut to the chase, It's not particularly sporting (Or accurate) to suggest Empire 'has no AI'.

I appreciate I may have misread your remark, but I note several other readers have taken it the same way and in two subsequent posts you havn't bothered to correct them, so I can only assume it was your intention to take a swipe at Empire.

If I'm wrong, please do let me know. Otherwise meet me on Hang Man's Hill at midday, the weapon is swords.

Yours,
Kieran

Sorry.

Just was irritated after paying for the game at releasedate and basically winning every single battle first try.

Then having the AI being unable to build armies that were challenging (even if you had no clue about the gamemechanics, which the manual did not explain.)

Basically I was able to knock out denmark in 1 year as Sweden by just marching the troops i had at start to christiania and kobenhavn.

It felt like "build something random, and move armies randomly at weak positions". The AI in eu1 was a bigger challenge and that one could not handle more than 2 targets per country.

We've been slaughtered for bad ai in games as well, but I'd expect that if you got a budget over 1M USD you'd be able to have at least 1 guy at AI for a year

First, thanks for buying Empire.

Second, if I may, as we know the fans will have their say and are the last, and most critical line of judgement. Rightly so as they're our customers.

So, as a player, we appreciated your feedback and interest in Empire.

Hopefully you'll feel more challenged with the upcoming release of the new Multiplayer Campaign beta. I'm sure one of our many AI programmers would be up for a game if you're looking for opposition...

[Rafiki]

[Stwa]

I quit the Total War series after I got Rome. I loved the game, once I downloaded the hack that let me play without the CD being in my drive. The game plays out nicely, but I really, really hate game companies that use copy-protection and require me to have the CD in the drive to play.

I think it's just a part of my grumpy nature, and I have made a promise to myself to avoid such companies ever again.

This means I'm pretty much restricted to Paradox, Stardock and AGEod at the moment. All the others are now a part of a self-imposed off-limits. It's not always easy to hold to this. Sometimes the temptation grows strong, but then I remember how much trouble I had playing CivIV before I downloaded the no-CD hack. The game was unplayable for me because the copy-protection caused my CD to get into some sort of read loop that never quit (yes, I have the latest CD drivers for my laptop). Every time I remember that incident, my resolve stays strong.

So, stay the course people. I'm really looking forward to VGN!

I agree with pretty much all of this. I liked Rome too, for the same reasons, but also after I found the mod that slowed game play down. In the end, its widescreen support didn't quite match my monitor resolution of 1360 x 768.

So, I have been looking to pick up the Ageod ACW game. Currently I have BoA and have been messing with it for 2 years or more.

[Generalisimo]

Well, I must say that I felt the same way as Johan when I played the game for the first time...
The game was soooo easy in the beginning that I just had to quit.

It is sad that this happened to such a big game.

Anyway, I have heard that they are adding a lot of new stuff to the game and changing everything (AI, costs, maintendance, etc, etc, etc).
Also, they will change uniforms to the historical ones (a horrible mistake on the release date :wacko and will add new units to most of the factions.
For example, the CORRECT spanish grenadiers...


Then, people complain about small companies releasing "unfinished" games...

I really expected a bit more from a big company like CA...

[runyan99]

To expect more is to totally ignore the history of their releases. The only rational thing to do is to expect incomplete or buggy games, and not buy them until six months after release. I've learned to do that in many cases.

[Stwa]

To expect more is to totally ignore the history of their releases. The only rational thing to do is to expect incomplete or buggy games, and not buy them until six months after release. I've learned to do that in many cases.

Agreed,

They stuck to their release dates, and when they fixed all the bugs they sold them to you in an addon. Its been going on since Shogun.

[RELee]

Johan having a complaint against another company's game AI?

That just gets a "Wow! Just wow!"

[Greybriar]

I quit the Total War series after I got Rome. I loved the game, once I downloaded the hack that let me play without the CD being in my drive. The game plays out nicely, but I really, really hate game companies that use copy-protection and require me to have the CD in the drive to play....

Being required to have the CD in the drive would not bother me nearly so much as being forced to play it on Steam. That latter requirement was the reason I did not purchase Empire: Total War.

But after reading what Johan posted, perhaps it's just as well that I did not purchase Empire: Total War.

[Generalisimo]

And here we go... apart from releasing a MAJOR patch that fixes a LOT of problematic stuff and adds new content (a good thing! ), CA is releasing a new expansion for ETW:

Expand your Empire with downloadable content! The Elite Units of the West Downloadable Content for Empire: Total War™ introduces 14 completely unique brand new units from all the major Western factions. Featuring all new infantry and cavalry units, equipped with the best weapons and having undergone the most rigorous of training, the Elite Units of the West DLC is the perfect addition to your Empire's army and will bring even more options on the battlefield to all tacticians seeking to defeat their enemies.

Once you've purchased the content, you will unlock all new 14 Elite Units of the West in the single player campaign under the conditions below. They will also be available in multiplayer and single player battle modes, when playing with the appropriate faction.

For just $3.49 on Steam...

[Franciscus]

Here we go again... So, would you prefer that CA did not patch ETW ? (like for example AGEOD did with NCP ? :cool . At least CA is working to improve a flawed game... and I do not know if it is because of Steam or not but at least ETW has already more patches than all the previous TW games combined .
As to the "expansion", everybody is free to do what they want with their money

[Generalisimo]

Here we go again... So, would you prefer that CA did not patch ETW ? (like for example AGEOD did with NCP ? :cool . At least CA is working to improve a flawed game... and I do not know if it is because of Steam or not but at least ETW has already more patches than all the previous TW games combined .

Please, read again what I have just said...
[SIZE="4"]...apart from releasing a MAJOR patch that fixes a LOT of problematic stuff and adds new content [color="Red"](a good thing! )[/color]...[/size]
Do I need to say it more clearly? or that's enough?

Everyone is free to buy or not that patch, ehem, expansion unit pack (it doesn't download any new content, it just activates the units that are INCLUDED in the patch you download )...but its like giving you the entire game for "small fees"...

As to the "expansion", everybody is free to do what they want with their money

Of course, I do not need to say that I will not buy that... just like I did not buy the special units pack.
I think I NEVER said people should NOT buy this new unit pack with 14 units that are activated... so, I do not see your point, really. Actually, I am advertising it here!! and for free!!

[Franciscus]

...but its like giving you the entire game for "small fees"...

Well, at least they are not charging a monthly fee. That would be of course unthinkable and intolerable... Wait ! I think there is an obscure gaming genre, MMORPG, I think they call it, that do just that. I even here that a couple of people even P(l)ay that kind of game ...

[arsan]

IMHO, that kind of mini expansions are a sad way to milk ones costumers
Its like if AACW gave you all the lousy USA leaders for free but you will have to pay an extra fee for Sherman and Grant... something like the "Bluebelly Elite generals expansion pack"
And maybe you will also have to pay to unlock Lee and put him on at teh head of the ANV. How good does it sound the "Lee takes command" mini expansion pack"?? Hey its Lee, and just for x,xx euros!
Its ludicrous!

So, would you prefer that CA did not patch ETW ? (like for example AGEOD did with NCP ? :cool . :

Yeah, sure... like if CA continued to patch their previous games
They keep pumping Rome TW or Medieval 2 TW patches all day long.. don''t they??

[Franciscus]

Relax, my dear iberian fanb... I mean, friend . I was just being ironic, and Generalisimo knows that

[arsan]

Relax, my dear iberian fanb... I mean, friend . I was just being ironic, and Generalisimo knows that

It didn't looked "ironic" at all
But if now you wanna say you were just joking i will do as if i believe you

[Generalisimo]

Well, at least they are not charging a monthly fee. That would be of course unthinkable and intolerable... Wait ! I think there is an obscure gaming genre, MMORPG, I think they call it, that do just that. I even here that a couple of people even P(l)ay that kind of game ...

I must say that I do not like the idea of MMORPG and "pay a fee to play"... I preffer the idea of "onwing a game" and playing whenever I want, even if that means 10 years later after I bought the game.
That's why I stay out of them...

By the way, being myself a huge fan of Star Wars, I had a hard time to stay away of Star Wars Galaxies... but I managed to do it until now...

[Sol Invictus]

It does appear a bit unseemly to attempt to pry a few more dollars out of their fans before the game is working as advertised. I am sure 1.3 will improve Empire, but until CA patches the game up to a acceptable standard, they should have held off on the extra buyable units. After the fiasco of the release they should have bundled all 28 new units into the patch and surprised their fans with an extra 14 units in addition to the announced 14 for the patch. That would have generated alot of goodwill. I figure the game will need one more big patch before I play my first game for more than a few years in.

[Rafiki]

Here we go again... So, would you prefer that CA did not patch ETW ? (like for example AGEOD did with NCP ? :cool .

Heh, you're comparing CA's patching policies with AGEOD's? That's funny

Don't get me wrong, I've had hours and hours of enjoyment with various incarnations of the Total Wars, but you're basically comparing fruit with some other fruit that isn't easily compared with the first fruit.

NCP has seen a number of patches. However, what has been the major snag for quite some time in NCP's patching process is the much smaller community support we've seen it, compared to e.g. WIA and AACW. I'm not saying this as an excuse, patching AGEOD games has always been and will always be AGEOD's responsibility, but I offer it as an explanation as to why the process has been made much easier for AGEOD in AACW's and WIA's case than it has been in NCP's case, which in turn has benefited the community of those games.

Of course, you may have meant this in an entirely inflammatory manner, as your calling other forumites for "fanboys" suggests, in which case I shall make sure I have my firefighter's gear prepped and ready

[Franciscus]

Well, let me stop here for a minute, if you please. My posts in this thread have been mostly made in an half-joking, ironic tone, but now I will be as serious as possible.

First:
@ arsan
If I offended you, it was not my intention, but let me publicly apologize. The only excuse I can offer is that sometimes one can be unfortunate when typing.

@ Rafiki
The problem, if there is one, is the existence of this thread in Ageod's forums. I consider in bad taste repeatedly thrashing (or something similar) another company's games in this company's forums. That's just my opinion, which in the end is only important to me, and even I admit that a bit of bad taste is sometimes necessary. That's why I continued to post in this thread.
And yes, the mere existence of this thread invites comparisons between Ageod and CA. And you know what ? it's possible to compare them . Why ? They both are companies that make games. And EVERY PC game is unfinished at release game. They can be more or less buggy but they are ALL works in progress. One important difference is the time and effort that gets to be dedicated to this work after release. Even Ageod's crown jewel, AACW, when I bought it, had serious problems and yes, was almost unplayable in my PC due to graphic memory problems to which solution I made a very small contribution. The continuing development of Ageod's games after release are dependent on the efforts of the Phillipes and their small, probably part-time team and of the fan base, and it is mainly due to the fan based, voluntary, free work that AACW (and WIA) continue to this date being improved. But this "model", sometimes almost described as virtuous (probably in comparison with some other company's ways of doing things, which by itself is debatable - one must not forget that we, as paying customers, have no obligation whatsoever to the developers after our money reaches their bank account), can also be a source of problems. The lack of the "right" fan base was the cause of the premature stopping of NCP development. This can happen again (I hope not), with RoP and even VGN, if Ageod does not hit the right nail at release time, or if the "coordinators" quit their "jobs" or do not have the adequate skills for the job.

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[Generalisimo]

The problem, if there is one, is the existence of this thread in Ageod's forums. I consider in bad taste repeatedly thrashing (or something similar) another company's games in this company's forums. That's just my opinion, which in the end is only important to me, and even I admit that a bit of bad taste is sometimes necessary. That's why I continued to post in this thread.

Obviously, we do not share the same opinion.
As a customer of Empire Total War, that I almost bought it on the same day of release, I think I can express my opinion on the game freely.
I have repeated many times that the game is fun... and as an example, you have this post inside this thread from myself from March:
http://www.ageod-forum.com/showpost.php?p=137214&postcount=70

So, no, really... I am buying their games... so I will not trash or bash CA... I have repeated many times that I am customer of their games... I have been buying them since Shogun!!!
BUT, that doesn't mean that I can't say that I think that "selling" 14 units is not a "wise" decision ... but of course, it is JUST my opinion.
Of course, other people have been more "hard" against CA... but that's was not my case.

I know... now you will say to me that you are not telling me that I "should not speak against CA"... but you are actually criticizing this thread... so, indirectly, you are doing that.

[Carnium]

I too have bought E:TW and it seems that the latest patch will finally be good enough to valid a full campaign. Yesterday I have spent a few hours removing mods and reinstalling the damn game to work again after the new patch.
A hint to other players : remove all mods, let the Stream validate your files and then only use the mods via mod manager. Also be sure to re-check every single mod as some are known to be causing CTDs and various problems with the new patch.

But CA just don't have luck as now this just happened to them :
http://shoguntotalwar.yuku.com/topic/58738/t/Not-seeing-the-new-units-have-dlc.html?page=1
Apparently they also have some little problems with screen capturing the right (payable) unit:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=271552

AGEOD patching process is WAY ahead of the the CA one. Keep on the good work boys

[Rafiki]

@ Rafiki
The problem, if there is one, is the existence of this thread in Ageod's forums. I consider in bad taste repeatedly thrashing (or something similar) another company's games in this company's forums. That's just my opinion, which in the end is only important to me, and even I admit that a bit of bad taste is sometimes necessary. That's why I continued to post in this thread.

If you consider specific postings to be in bad taste, you are welcome to say so (in fact, I encourage it). If the taste in them is really bad, point them out to me, and I'll see if it needs addressing (or let you know why I think addressing isn't warranted).

In general, I tend to agree that it is unfortunate if things start to boil down to "Total War devs are stoopid" or "CA execs are braindead". I can't remember seeing this here, and trust I won't either.

The people of the forums have expressed an interest in being able to discuss other companies' computer games here, which is one of the purposes of this particular subforum. I imagine that most people that frequent these forums like AGEOD games, and since we/you/they have comparable tastes in that area, it becomes interesting what we/you/they think of other games on the market, both comparable (Paradox and Matrix games come to mind) and even not so comparable (Warhammer, Wii Sports etc)

It is also of benefit to AGEOD to see through the eyes of the people playing our games how we compare to other companies, both to know what we do well (and should keep on doing and emphasize in our efforts) and to see what others are doing better than us and that we might want to look into.

To round off; I see what you mean and understand the point you wish to make. We (AGEOD) consider ourselves to be on friendly terms with all our competitors, and we do not want to see our forums used for outright badmouthing of others. If someone is out of line, point it out and call them on it. We're grown-ups (most of us, at least ), and we should be able to discuss what is on our minds with rational, slander-free discourse

[RELee]

I will be resisting efforts to force me to purchase games through STEAM for as long as possible. I've already had one bad experience with a similar service, which I will not get into here. I just hope that folks will still continue to offer games on CD and DVD for a while yet. If I decide to purchase E:TW, it will probably be once it hits the discount shelf at one of my local superstores or game boutiques.

VGN, on the other hand, is a horse of a different color.

[Generalisimo]

It is a bit calm around here, so I will do a bit of thread necromancy...

Today, it has been confirmed that a new expansion pack will be available in October for EmpireTW.
So, we are talking about these in less than a year:
EmpireTW Special Units Edition (full game) $69.99
EmpireTW (normal game) $49.99 [color="Gray"]<-THE normal game, the one I bought[/color]
EmpireTW Elite Units of the West (add-on) $3.49
EmpireTW The Warpath Campaign (expansion) $9.99
NapoleonTW (normal game) $49.99

The last one, is the new game announced for 2010 based on the same engine.

Really, if this works... it is really THE business model to follow...

[Franciscus]

Must...resist...the urge... No...flame...wars...

(...)
Really, if this works... it is really THE business model to follow...

Your words, not mine

If they make good money out of it, it will be because lots of people will buy and enjoy their games and expansions. And if so they will have another success, and continue in business, doing games that their customers enjoy.
...and no, I am not talking about CA. I am sure that Ageod guys would fully endorse this sentence

[TiFlo]

As much as I'd like not to mention it, it doesn't seem very far from what PI does. And they've managed to develop as faithful a fan base as can be. To use a polite term.

[Generalisimo]

Must...resist...the urge... No...flame...wars...

No flame intented from my part... really.

Your words, not mine

If they make good money out of it, it will be because lots of people will buy and enjoy their games and expansions. And if so they will have another success, and continue in business, doing games that their customers enjoy.
...and no, I am not talking about CA. I am sure that Ageod guys would fully endorse this sentence

I was being serious about that last sentence... even if it doesn't look like.
If that proves to be successful (and I think it will, because I do not see CA closing their doors in the short/middle term), then that's probably the *new* business model to follow to be successful in the gaming industry.
It is all about Marketing...

And also, it is NOT the only *BIG* company doing that... most of the already "positioned" companies that already got their market share defined have implemented something "similar".

I think the whole discussion/argument resides on defining where to draw the line between what is a *real* expansion/addon and what is not...

[Stwa]

CA games were great down through the years. I don't play them anymore.

But, I do have fond memories. With RTW, it was the gigantic trees that made the game. With MTW, it was unloading every princess on some unsuspecting dweeb. And who can forget the "Throne Room" in Shogun.

[Generalisimo]

CA games were great down through the years. I don't play them anymore.

But, I do have fond memories. With RTW, it was the gigantic trees that made the game. With MTW, it was unloading every princess on some unsuspecting dweeb. And who can forget the "Throne Room" in Shogun.

Shogun... what memories!!