Another newb stares defeat in the face

[Cromagnonman]

I've been reading these fora since deciding to order the game, and I figured I knew what to do. No doubt my recent experience with Sumter to Appomattox has poisoned my strategic thinking.
Anyhow, my first full game from April '61 in 1.15 as the Union, and it's early September. Athena left McDowell largely unchecked and I was able to quickly take Manassas and Fredricksburg once he activated. I held Harpers Ferry and used Patterson's force to secure the B&O. Ben Butler repulsed Beauregard at Fort Monroe with heavy losses, while an ad hoc amphib force took Suffolk. I've driven all enemy forces out of Missouri, and Lil' Mac turned back a cavalry raid in western Virginia. Kentucky is up in the air, but I seem to be prevailing there.

But I've run into some problems. My first mistake seems to have been to show restraint in raising money and men. The CSA has partially mobilized and raised exceptional taxes at every opportunity; I mereley paid $1k bounties, and issued bonds and minimal taxes. I'm pretty sure I've fallen well behind, amd yet the CSA continues to have better NM & VP. Is it too late to begin mobilizing and raising taxes, or continue my conservative approach and allow the secesh economy to collapse?

Due to my financial and manpower constraints, I've raised very little non-volunteer infantry. I expected these to upgrade relatively quickly to conscript infantry, but only one (of dozens) has done so. Now I'm left with all these volunteer demi-brigades facing down large stacks of regulars. I've been recruiting regulars since I didcovered the disparity, but is there anything I can do to help these militia to upgrade? Same deal for all the light artillery.

Having read about the dangers of hiding inside structures, I've moved almost all my fixed garrison forces out of the cities and into the countryside. Has anyone done any testing to determine whether this affects loyalty, prevents partisans from rising, or diminishes the effectiveness of raiders? If beaten outside the city, will these troops withdraw into the city or to another region?

I thought that my best course of action regarding the West Coast would be to garrison the mountain passes with militia and bring the regulars East by ship. Has anyone found these elite regiments to be more useful in the Transmississippi?

[Chaplain Lovejoy]

My first mistake seems to have been to show restraint in raising money and men. The CSA has partially mobilized and raised exceptional taxes at every opportunity; I mereley paid $1k bounties, and issued bonds and minimal taxes.

You need to keep a close eye on how CSA is raising men and money. If CSA is going full mobilization, you will be in for a nasty surprise if you try to stick will all volunteers.

[enf91]

Raising militia is OK in 1861 because you need troops fast. Plus, I think experienced militia convert faster. But by Nov/Dec 1861, winter sets in and it's more effective to recruit regulars. They take another turn to raise, but they're much stronger. If possible or convenient, try to raise artillery separately because they take yet another turn or two to raise, pinning the rest of the brigade with them to be destroyed if attacked. Remember: the CSA starts out with much higher NM than you and gets a +10 NM boost with the Confiscation Act, so he'll raise more troops than you at any opportunity. But you have a massive advantage in biweekly money and WS production. Use that.

[Cromagnonman]

You need to keep a close eye on how CSA is raising men and money. If CSA is going full mobilization, you will be in for a nasty surprise if you try to stick will all volunteers.

Fortunately I realized what they were doing and am only one recruiting cycle behind. But I did waste a lot of money paying volunteer bounties. I'm surprised that they've spent so much political capital and still lead me in VP and NM

[Courtenay]

I am also a new player, playing my first game (its up to March '62), and it is going very well. Based on my experiences, three things:

1) Immediately go for full Mobilization. You will need those men. I would have gone for exceptional taxes, as well, but too late.

2) Militia does not seem to upgrade at all the first few months of the war. I had none do so until Late July '61. After that, they start to train up. However, the rate is not fast.

3) 6 ldrs turn into 12 ldrs very quickly. The regular brigades with six pounders in them are very good.

I am curious as to what settings you are using. In my game (passive, low AI detect bonus, all else normal) Athena keeps making suicidal deep raids any time she gets a reasonable force together. Have you seen this behavior? I would really like to know how to stop it.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Cromagnonman]

I am curious as to what settings you are using. In my game (passive, low AI detect bonus, all else normal) Athena keeps making suicidal deep raids any time she gets a reasonable force together. Have you seen this behavior? I would really like to know how to stop it.

She did try a raid through WV, driving back my militia & cavalry screen in Beverly upon their supports in Grafton under MacClellan. That force slipped past and made it to the Pittsburg area and on-board transports in Ohio Forks. I had just completed a monitor in Pitt, which I sent to massacre them. Instead, I found nothing. Turns out they had fled South from Grafton, but Lil Mac's detection malus caused a big scare. Frankly, I'm impressed that this program could create so large and convincing an intelligence failure. My hat is off to the programmers

[enf91]

There are whole threads dedicated to stopping AI suicide. Try giving the AI a +1 detection bonus.

[Chaplain Lovejoy]

By all means, put CSA/AI on "passive." I have much experience with this.

[MikeV]

I've been reading these fora since deciding to order the game, and I figured I knew what to do. No doubt my recent experience with Sumter to Appomattox has poisoned my strategic thinking.

The one thing I miss from RFSTA is a tactical battle system. In this game, battles are infrequent enough to be the high-stakes events they were IRL, and it would be nice to have tactical control.

Anyhow, my first full game from April '61 in 1.15 as the Union, and it's early September. Athena left McDowell largely unchecked and I was able to quickly take Manassas and Fredricksburg once he activated. I held Harpers Ferry and used Patterson's force to secure the B&O. Ben Butler repulsed Beauregard at Fort Monroe with heavy losses, while an ad hoc amphib force took Suffolk. I've driven all enemy forces out of Missouri, and Lil' Mac turned back a cavalry raid in western Virginia. Kentucky is up in the air, but I seem to be prevailing there.

What I do is review the objectives view, where the darker-colored regions indicate the higher-VP objectives, and reveals how Athena prioritizes reagions. One reason she goes through WVa is to get to Pittsburgh. It's also why she keeps going after Norfolk, if you remember to reinforce it early.

But I've run into some problems. My first mistake seems to have been to show restraint in raising money and men. The CSA has partially mobilized and raised exceptional taxes at every opportunity; I mereley paid $1k bounties, and issued bonds and minimal taxes. I'm pretty sure I've fallen well behind, amd yet the CSA continues to have better NM & VP. Is it too late to begin mobilizing and raising taxes, or continue my conservative approach and allow the secesh economy to collapse?

I go for Volunteers, Measured Exceptional Taxes, and Full Blockade every chance it's available (~6 months). I haven't yet tried draining the $$$ for bounties, since I usually need it for other things ...

I also have the North invest (a little) in RR and River transport each turn, and focus (i.e. up to 3 factory icons) industrial WS development in NY and (if the $$$ is available) IL -- they start high, and each increase is proportionally more useful.

Due to my financial and manpower constraints, I've raised very little non-volunteer infantry. I expected these to upgrade relatively quickly to conscript infantry, but only one (of dozens) has done so. Now I'm left with all these volunteer demi-brigades facing down large stacks of regulars. I've been recruiting regulars since I didcovered the disparity, but is there anything I can do to help these militia to upgrade? Same deal for all the light artillery.

Since the scripted events supply so many units early on, I usually just raise militia units in pairs. I immediately join them into demi-brigades, as you do, and just wait for them to train up to regular status. The key thing is to leave them inside structures, as garrisons -- Athena goes for empty cities in a heartbeat.

On the other hand, I gather all non-militia forces into stacks with leaders (at start, all you can do is join each leader to one Brigade). When the appropriate events fire, these are organized into Divisions and Corps, to minimize the command penalties. I don't depend on the militia to do any serious defense, but use these mobile forces to defeat the enemy stacks in the field.

Having read about the dangers of hiding inside structures, I've moved almost all my fixed garrison forces out of the cities and into the countryside.

I tend to leave the militia inside, and have mobile forces outside. If you leave the latter alone, they increase their entrenchment level.

Has anyone done any testing to determine whether this affects loyalty, prevents partisans from rising, or diminishes the effectiveness of raiders? If beaten outside the city, will these troops withdraw into the city or to another region?

The raiders tend to act as scouts, and give you some early warning as to where she's planning to send her mobile forces. When defeated, forces retreat to adjacent regions and surrender the objective to the victor.

I thought that my best course of action regarding the West Coast would be to garrison the mountain passes with militia and bring the regulars East by ship. Has anyone found these elite regiments to be more useful in the Transmississippi?

Yes, I move them east. But via IA and AZ, rather than by sea. She likes to raid Denver and Tucson, and there's an event that fires an uprising in the Great Plains. The East gets enough units via other events ...

[MikeV]

Some other observations:

• Rivers are highways. Control both banks, and use riverine gunboats as "plugs," to deny their use by the enemy. As was the case IRL, these are your strategic axes of advance.
• Controlled regions are your eyes. They reveal (usually) enemy activity in adjacent regions. You can't be everywhere, so that's the main reason for expending the effort to flip regional control across a broad front, and advance it away from your objective regions.
• Cavalry are pickets. Supplement the above with well-posted cav units to act as your early warning system. Set them to retreat if engaged -- as IRL, they're too expensive to waste in a stand-up fight.

Hope this helps ...

[enf91]

The one thing I miss from RFSTA is a tactical battle system. In this game, battles are infrequent enough to be the high-stakes events they were IRL, and it would be nice to have tactical control.

Might I suggest TC2M? And what's RFSTA? The tactical engine has been brought up before, but only jokingly; this game is so huge that if you included a tactical engine, playing one campaign would take months of daily play.

[Cromagnonman]

Thanks all. I switched to a partial draft with regular volunteers and more taxes have been fine since. My militia are still turning over slowly, thankfully the 6-pounders are going more quickly. A couple flanking landings combined with Athena running low on supplies has put me on Richmond's doorstep with overwhelming force in April '62.

For history's sake. I put together a division with some heavy artillery and sent them off to capture forts in the Outer Banks. My force has 2 Napoleons, and one each of horse, 10-lb & 20-lb Parrot, and siege artillery. This should give me a siege power around +7, yet the forts are laughing it off. Any reason why they should be so resistant?

[MikeV]

Might I suggest TC2M?

Thanks for the suggestion. The "Take Command" series, like other primarily tactical sims, are OK. I just prefer a larger-scale, more open-ended sim.

And what's RFSTA?

Road from Sumter to Appomattox, an early ACW (primarily) strategic-level sim.

this game is so huge that if you included a tactical engine, playing one campaign would take months of daily play.

Yes, that would be Fun.

[kwhitehead]

I think a tactical engine would put this game length on the order of lifetimes. Maybe even millenia.

[Cromagnonman]

I'd love a tactical engine. Having limited experience with ACW tactical games, I enjoyed the visual appeal of Sid Meiers Antietam. Thus far the battle resolution system seems to be fairly bland.
My experience has not involved a ghastly number of battles so far, the largest involving less than 50k men total. Athena has been able to raise some fierce-appearing armies, but was not able to keep them supplied. I thus was able to capture most Southern troops in Virginia as they sat starving in Tappahannock and Williamsburg. I understand that for many the appeal of the game is in multiplayer, where Athena's shortcomings are not a factor. Still, I doubt that a tactical element would lengthen the game more than would be desirable. Anyhow, this is not really relevant to the topic.

[enf91]

If you really want tactical engines, Forge of Freedom has one. Be warned: the game is really, really weird. Then again, I've played it exactly once since buying it a few weeks ago.

[mjw]

If you really want tactical engines, Forge of Freedom has one. Be warned: the game is really, really weird. Then again, I've played it exactly once since buying it a few weeks ago.

Funny...thats how I would describe it as well.."weird". Could never put my finger on it.

Anyway, the problem with tactics is it ruins strategy. What I mean is...you have an army that is completely outgunned and outmanned and commanded by a general who is completely outclassed...no way you can win IRL. Now, if you are able to fight tactical battles against the AI...you can now win that battle because, generally, tactical AI systems are fairly weak. Just takes the fun out of it I think. Even TC2M is pretty easy to beat and that AI isnt bad at all.

[Cromagnonman]

Yeah, I compared this to FoF before making my purchase decision. The lack of demo and poorer reviews led me to pick Ageod, and I think it's a good thing. I'd actually somewhat prefer a tactical game, or at least just battle movies, but I like to be able to choose what forces come to the battlefield, and that requires a strategic level of play.

[tagwyn]

Newbies: Be warned!! Athena has teeth!! In MO I divived my army in the face of a smaller but dangerous CSA force!! WOW!! A beat both of my armys in detail and drove them off into the boonies!! Be more careful guys. t apy:

[enf91]

Common misconception: "boonies" = boondocks does not equal "middle of nowhere". "Boondocks" means "slums". And if you like battle movies, "Robert E. Lee: Civil War General" and its successor (I suppose; I haven't played it) "Sherman, Grant, Lee: Civil War Generals 2" or something have little movies with each battle. They are really, really old, though, and Vista won't run them. Windows 7 might; I have 64-bit Vista, the worst game OS ever made.

[Cromagnonman]

Well, Athena might have outraised me at first; I'll never know. I do know that she had a devil of a time supplying them, and I managed to smash the hell out of the secesh hordes in quick order. I passed 200 NM in Dec '62. It's not the most rapid of victories, nor the most stunning in light of being on the easy level. But my initial fears did turn out to be misplaced.

Civil War General was an okay series, but it had a number of drawbacks. It was fun to capture weapons and use them to upgrade your own forces. However, the AI did not seem to be bound by similar supply restraints, meaning that it was difficult to get appreciably ahead even after a string of stupendous victories. It also often resulted in new forces to your command (such as XII Corps at Gettysburg) showing up with 1830's-era muskets.

Agreed re Vista, am looking forward to upgrading.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Cromagnonman]

I wasn't referring to FoF when talking about not being able to choose what forces come to battle; I couldn't find a demo of FoF, so never tried it. I referred more to games like Civil War General & Sid Meiers Antietam, in which you generally only have the option to fight historic battles with historic OOBs.

[Pat "Stonewall" Cleburne]

You can in fact play Civil War Generals 2 on Vista 64. I think you just need to play with the compatibility settings. I still play it from time to time, but much less than I did before I bought this game.

As for play style against the AI, I don't even call the draft in the majority of my games at all. 1000$ bounty bonus volunteers is all you need (as CSA anyway, I can never get into a Union game). I think I wanna try the game on hard sometime soon so I have to push myself into doing new things.

[hgilmer]

I really like Forge of Freedom and still play it a lot. I rarely play the tactical battles, though, because they make the game last forever.

I've just recently gone back to this game. I had shelved it for awhile, but after buying Rise of Prussia, I found that I wanted to play AACW instead of Rise of Prussia, at least for now. I know the ACW and know a fair amount about it. Rise of Prussia seems to me all over the place and I have a hard time following the ebb and flow and am having a hard time figuring out what to do.

[Cromagnonman]

If 2 posts count after a year.

Anyhow, right now I'm drafting and taxing to beat the band. I am playing as Union but attempting to trigger FI (and still win), meaning I have to allow the CSA to survive in good shape but at bay while building a superior navy. Plus I got the Sam Houston event, which I am trying to honor, so that's a whole 'nother front to manage. So I just might need those 1500k dollars and 1500h conscripts.