Money Puzzle

[PeterMac]

Have often had suspicions about money handling, having left enough for expected end of turn costs, Divisions, Ecconomics etc, found some divisions not paid for at end of turn. Have usually put this down to repairs on Warships Rail lines etc. But one game I had left around 270 money at end of turn three. Only expected expense was one Division 10 money, Start of turn four, game said I had only around 90 money left ??? Went back to previous turn and changed options to leave only around 50 money at end of turn - turn four now says I have only 2 money left, and division is not paid for. Can anyone explain where this money is going 170,000 is a lot to just dissappear ??? As far as I can tell it didn't try to take the rest (other 120) after turn four.

Playing CSA running straight out of Box, I think Version 1.2.

[77NY]

Hi Peter,

Do you have ongoing industrialization? It isn't a one-time cost and is assessed every turn.

[PeterMac]

No no other expenses at all, Just one division to be paid for. Don't normally spend anything on Industrialisation, or Rail/River until much later in game, concentrate first on Troops, and Ships as CSA.

[cmurphy625]

so would it be a good idea to not have as much industrialization? I find myself running out of money all the time, yet I have an over abundance of War Supplies.. think I built too many industries at the beginning.. Can I 'delete' industries if this is the case?

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[PeterMac]

Just tried a quick test last night

Turn one went maximum on both Money and Drafts, all options, did nothing else, no industry, no rail transport, no river transport, just hit next turn.
Ran through same way for first four turns.

Differences between predicted balances, and actual balances next turn were different by upto plus, and minus 70K on Money, and 30 companies on Manpower. WS had no variation. What is going on in background to cause this ?? With turn increases at only around 30 on Money, and manpower a variation of 70 both ways is too much for just random changes due to loyalty changes in provinces ?? Is it just the version I am running, or is this a general problem. Surprised no-one else has picked up on this if it is a general problem.

[77NY]

By the way, there are more than a few things in the game that mouse "right-clicking" adjusts, another example is the "text" of the "Political" choices. A few of them can be changed by left/right clicking on their text. This is missed by quite a few new players, including myself 18 months ago.

I have a suspicion that is how you get to Full Conscription and Enlistment Bonuses, which I've read about here but haven't seen in the Politics screen. I'll have to check it out later.

[Update: Yep, there they were. Great -- thanks Gray.]

Peter: those variances seem high to me. I see some fluctuations, which I also assume are due to loyalty changes, but have never noticed anything that pronounced.

Division formation also costs money and conscription and I think maybe WSu. You can see the costs using the tool tip over the division formation button. Have you started forming divisions?

[Mickey3D]

Just tried a quick test last night

Turn one went maximum on both Money and Drafts, all options, did nothing else, no industry, no rail transport, no river transport, just hit next turn.
Ran through same way for first four turns.

Differences between predicted balances, and actual balances next turn were different by upto plus, and minus 70K on Money, and 30 companies on Manpower. WS had no variation. What is going on in background to cause this ?? With turn increases at only around 30 on Money, and manpower a variation of 70 both ways is too much for just random changes due to loyalty changes in provinces ?? Is it just the version I am running, or is this a general problem. Surprised no-one else has picked up on this if it is a general problem.

It's because when you go on Money and Draft you loose national moral. This loss if not reflected when you sign for an option but is taken into account when the actual amount of money and conscripts is computed.

[PeterMac]

Deliberately did absolutely nothing during these turns.
No Industrialisation
No River transport
No Rail Transport
No replacements
No reinforcements
No Division creation
After first turn No Draft, Financial, or Political options
Did not even move units
Turn2-3 ended up with ~70K money less than expected
Turn 3-4 ended up with ~70K money more than expected
Had wondered if Hits on NM, and VP would affect things, but that should only have been Turn1-2 and while there were differences between expected, and actual they were relatively small.

Will try same thing again tonight, and report on findings

[Major Tom]

Hi Peter -

I've also been running a test game to track economics, and your post has made me realize that I'm not tracking something extremely important -- the actual balances of money and WS at the start of each turn. Such a stupid thing to miss! I've been tracking what is supposedly produced by each state, and tracking the "expected income" (these two actually match -- the expected income displayed in the finance screen does match the $ and WS displayed for each state in the economics screen -- which is why I didn't dig any deeper).

It did not occur to me that what is actually coming in might be different! Damn -- I'm already tracking 90- different data points for each turn, and it's taken forever just to track all of that and dump it into spreadsheets for the 18 tuirns of 1861. Now I have to start tracking actual $ and WS income too.

I can tell you this -- there are some odd money events in the game. In my test game, Virginia went from producing $1 per turn on turns 1-6 to $65 per turn starting turn 7. That's huge, and represents an overall 150% income increase for CSA. After that, VA was producing 60% of CSA $ every turn. I assume this some sort of hidden event, as it wasn't tied to taking Norfolk, which I did on turn 1. I did not observe anything else of this magnitude during my 18-turn test.

But I can tell you that the displayed numbers in the game do not always agree with each other. I was also testing out industrialization, and every time I got a WS increase of +1-4, the WS production displayed on the econ screen for the state actually went up by one or two MORE than the turn resolution message (usually it was +1 more). I assumed that WS from industrialization was increased in a patch, but the increase didn't get reflected in the messages. Now I need to do what you've been doing and look at the actual WS and $ production each turn.

As I write this I've ralized something else. The expected income in WS and $ on the finance screen EXACTLY matches the production level shown for each state. So, it's not showing any expected income from blockade runners -- I guess that makes sense because blockade runner income is technically unpredictable (actually, it's very predictable).

[Major Tom]

It's because when you go on Money and Draft you loose national moral. This loss if not reflected when you sign for an option but is taken into account when the actual amount of money and conscripts is computed.

Is that right? Same for VP? The reason I ask is that I always try to do multiple options at the same time, to lock in the current VP rate for computing the results. I don't think I've ever checked to see if I got the amount of money I was expecting.

[Major Tom]

Peter -

I might have found at least a partial explanation for you, but it's in one of the database files that I don't know how to read correctly.

From the Events_Scripts tab on the AACW_Setup1861_April_Campaign_v1.12a file, I find these as part of the events that bring scripted renifrocements:

May 1, 1861 (Turn 3)

ChangeWSUPool 10
ChangeConscriptPool 50
ChangeMoneyPool 75
ChangeRailPool 15
ChangeRiverPool 5

June 1, 1861 (Turn 5)

ChangeWSUPool 15
ChangeConscriptPool 75
ChangeMoneyPool 75
ChangeRailPool 10
ChangeRiverPool 3

July 1, 1861 (Turn 7)

ChangeWSUPool 5
ChangeConscriptPool 25
ChangeMoneyPool 50
ChangeRailPool 5
ChangeRiverPool 2

So it looks like on each of these turns, the game is giving the CSA free war supply, conscripts, money, rail, and river. But, like I said, I have no idea if I'm reading this correctly.

There are similar additions on the US side, but in different amounts.

I don't see any of these after July 1, 1861. I'm pretty certain that these amounts don't show up in the expected income line on the finance screen.

[Major Tom]

Deliberately did absolutely nothing during these turns.
No Industrialisation
No River transport
No Rail Transport
No replacements
No reinforcements
No Division creation
After first turn No Draft, Financial, or Political options
Did not even move units
Turn2-3 ended up with ~70K money less than expected
Turn 3-4 ended up with ~70K money more than expected
Had wondered if Hits on NM, and VP would affect things, but that should only have been Turn1-2 and while there were differences between expected, and actual they were relatively small.

Will try same thing again tonight, and report on findings

Peter - I don't see how you could get $70K less than expected on turn 2-3 if you didn't make any financial moves. In my test game, with no financial moves, expected CSA revenue form the finance screen was only $44K.

[Clovis]

Hi Peter -




I can tell you this -- there are some odd money events in the game. In my test game, Virginia went from producing $1 per turn on turns 1-6 to $65 per turn starting turn 7. That's huge, and represents an overall 150% income increase for CSA. After that, VA was producing 60% of CSA $ every turn. I assume this some sort of hidden event, as it wasn't tied to taking Norfolk, which I did on turn 1. I did not observe anything else of this magnitude during my 18-turn test.

Tied to Richmond becoming CSA Capital. the Capital Region output is multiplied by 5.

[Major Tom]

Tied to Richmond becoming CSA Capital. the Capital Region output is multiplied by 5.

Thanks, Clovis. I thought it must have something to do with the Capital. I just did not realize that RIchmond doesnt become Capital until turn 7.

Also, that must mean another event gave Richmond +12 in $ production on the same turn: ($1 + 12)*5 = $65. Because up until turn 7 Virginia was only producing $1.

The $ increase on turn 7 happens only in Richmond, although there seem to be scripted events on turn 3 and turn 9 that increase WSu and $ production in some states.

[PeterMac]

Have done some further testing, figures agree with scripted values Major Tom has found. Was aware of effects of Capital move, and Steel Mill In Richmond, and had discounted these.

Main discrepancy downwards appears to be associated with Bond Income. Had not thought to check actual income reported from this, against Expected.

Ran through to T5, with absolutely nothing done, and differences are anly those in scripts found.

Ran through to turn 7 after taking 5% Bond turn 1, Base Volunteers, and base taxation.

Expected Bonds 97, Tax 109, Vol 153
Actual Bomds 88, Tax 108 Vol 150

Discrepancy Expected Money to Actual Money was 10, and Manpower 3

Why does Bond income deteriorate so much ? Both Tax, and Bond income are supposed to be based on VP, so hit on this should affect both equally.

Obviously effect will be magnified if heavier options are used

Noted figures where I took all max options at turn 1

Predicted Money 1039, Manpower 845
Actual Money 974, Manpower 821
Sorry did not check reported actual income from Bonds, but now sure most of Money difference would be found there.

Still convinced I have seen significant shortfalls at other times, but now wondering if this is due to carryover effect. e.g. spend all of predicted income after taking these options, Due to shortfall would drive current Money negative. But only reported as Zero. Next turn claws back overspend ??

What happens when overspend occurs - do some units not get produced? - are some units queued for future production when income allows??

Now wondering what would happen if you simply went on massive overspend, driving everything very negative ?? Would obviously prevent Repairs, and Division creation as these only take place if you have spare cash, but would you care if you already had massive transport, and every available unit ??

[Coregonas]

Hi boys here is your explanation causing these differences EXPECTED / REAL.

INFLATION caused by OPTIONS CLICKED is not COUNTED on the EXPECTED costs, but is COUNTED before paying NEXT turn costs.

An Example.
1st TURN. 0% inflation

I click a PRINT PAPER OPTION -> Inflation will go up to 4%.

I Pay, for instance 2.000 thousand $ in several units.

EXPECTED costs is just -2.000

REAL costs are going to be a 4% extra, so - 80 th. $

Beware there is ROUNDING to an integer number involved in every single unit, so this value is not exactly counted this way.

[Coregonas]

Regarding your BONDS question, the same inflation affair happens, but taking into account VPs.

Bonds cost VP, and bring money thanks to VP.

Example

500 VPs starting turn. Bonds Expect to obtain 500 $ (with 500 VPs)

Bonds -> -75 Vps BEFORE getting the money, so
425 VPs -> then 425 $ obtainbed, NOT 500 expected.

The game WORKS WAD. Its Just difficult to know all the math behind.
I believe an important part of the flavour of this game is exactly searching for all these little questions...

[soloswolf]

What happens when overspend occurs - do some units not get produced? - are some units queued for future production when income allows??

Now wondering what would happen if you simply went on massive overspend, driving everything very negative ?? Would obviously prevent Repairs, and Division creation as these only take place if you have spare cash, but would you care if you already had massive transport, and every available unit ??

There is no queue, they do not get produced. I am not sure how it decides what does not get produced. (Last one produced, most expensive, ?) I think the massive overspend idea would not have much effect. You would not be in a negative, as I would imagine that as soon as you ran out of resources you'd stop spending and should stay above zero.

[PeterMac]

Thanks for the replies Coregonas, and Soloswolf.
Starting to get a much better idea of how these things work now.
Is not a problem once you understand it, but with very little information given during game, and what there is is easy to miss, it can really screw up your plans if you are not expecting it.

If you go for all Max options, early in game, as I was when I picked up on this, I can see it is very easy to end up trying to overspend by 200K or more.
Large Militia buy at 8K rather than 7K (actually 14% inflation) Plus reduced income expected, VP at ~100 rather than ~250, ouch!!

[Major Tom]

Hi boys here is your explanation causing these differences EXPECTED / REAL.

INFLATION caused by OPTIONS CLICKED is not COUNTED on the EXPECTED costs, but is COUNTED before paying NEXT turn costs.

An Example.
1st TURN. 0% inflation

I click a PRINT PAPER OPTION -> Inflation will go up to 4%.

I Pay, for instance 2.000 thousand $ in several units.

EXPECTED costs is just -2.000

REAL costs are going to be a 4% extra, so - 80 th. $

Beware there is ROUNDING to an integer number involved in every single unit, so this value is not exactly counted this way.

Coregonas - this answer, and your answer about bond yields, are both very clear. Thank you for the information. I have also tended to do what Peter was doing -- making a lot of financial and conscript movements early on and at the same time. I though I could minimize the impact of the VP hit by picking two options at the same time that cost VP, so take the hit all at once without having an impact on the yield. This was kind of a gamey cheat, so I'm atually pleased that it doesn't work the way I expected.

Your comment on rounding makes me realize something else -- at low inflation rates, inflation is only going to be seen in the cost of more expensive things. Some big brigades cost $50 or more. These will see the effect of inflation immediately at the 1% level. But militia only cost $7. Considering rounding, inflation would have ot hit 7% before the cost of militia rises to $8. So, inflation under 7% makes militia even cheaper relative to larger units, and if you are anticipating making a move that would raise inflation to 7% or above, it would make sense to buy a lot of militia on the prior turn.

[Injun]

Here is something to think about when those figures do not come out the way ya figure.
I understand that the game takes things like graft and corruption in to account. I can't seem to recall in which thread I read this. Can anyone confirm this?