Banks vs Soundoff discussion thread

[xpyre]

It appears that there are many of us following along with this intriguing AAR.

I find it very hard to comment on those threads without letting something slip. So I thought I'd open up a new thread to be able to discuss the situation.

I'd love to know the thoughts and opinions of all those reading along.

Obviously I've stuck "keep out" notices on both Banks and Soundoff threads to warn them of what I've done.

It appears to my novice eyes to be very nicely poised at the moment. Obviously the early ZOC heavy loss for Banks was a real setback. However, Kentucky going CSA evened it up quite nicely.

I think this one could well go the whole distance.
I'm not sure Soundoff can land a knockout blow in the east and Banks will have plenty of counter play in the centre. In terms of the far west, the blowing of all the depots makes it almost a wasteland.

I've realised that one of the big differences between my play and both of these vastly more experienced players is their positioning of armies outside of city areas.

I'm always terrified of supply problems so tend to only put armies in locations with excellent supply. It is obvious that Banks in particular has an ability to keep the supply coming even in places I would have thought were suicidal.

How do other people think it is going?

Who do you think is winning/ going to win?

I'm still learning the game but, my money is slightly on Banks, even though he is CSA and even with that horrendous early defeat. Soundoff seems a little too respectful of Banks to press home his advantage and I'm not sure about using Grant in the east before he has had chance for some victories (and promotion) in the west.

I guess we will just have to see how it turns out.

X

[Stonewall_matt]

I agree its a great AAR!

I've stated somewhere on one of the threads but I am new to this game and war games so i'm finding the whole thing VERY complicated, but this AAR has really helped me get a better understanding, escpecially when it comes to stragegy as I don't really know about the actual history of the Civil War fighting wise

Both are making it easy for beginners to follow and putting in explainations for their actions.

Although Banks has alot less troops in the east, if he can get then entrenched in good positions he should be hard to defeat and hopefully he can gain advantages in other places on the map.

This will run for a loooooong time I think.

[xpyre]

Hi Stonewall_Matt,

I'm new to the game too.

The AARs are a wonderful aid to understanding the game and are actually are easier to follow than the manual and tutorial.

It is very much a game where the defender has the edge. I certaily struggle to press on against any sort of opposition. In my games against Athena I end up trying to starve her into submission. Assaults on similar sized stacks seem to end in disaster. It will be particularly interesting to see how Soundoff conducts an attack in the East.

Bank's attack in the centre is much closer to my advances. (No real battles to speak of just a constant manoeuvring for position). I' m interested in Banks move with AS Johnstone.

X

[Comtedemeighan]

This is a cool idea making a discussion thread for these AAR's I think these are some of the Best AAR's put together here that I have seen, I think SoundOff has a good chance to win but Banks seems to be a wily opponent

[xpyre]

Comtedemeighan

What do you think of Soundoff's Tallahassee move? Opening a new front is essential for USA but Tallahassee is a weird place to start.

Maybe becuase it is so strange Banks will not counter it as aggressively as he would have done and that may make it ultimately more effective.

Time will tell.

X

[Comtedemeighan]

Its a bold move I think but He has no reserves or units to throw in to hold Tallahassee His Command could be Destroyed if Banks has anything Near by but you could be right it could turn into a very bold Stroke that will begin to disrupt the 'soft' underbelly of the CSA. If he sends in more troops it could very well turn into a huge breakthrough

[xpyre]

Comtedemeighan

You are right the CSA does have a huge soft underbelly.
I think the terrain advantage of the USA is even bigger than their material advantage.

The USA can open up as many fronts as it wants... and the Mississippi is like a support super highway straight to the important cities in the confederacy. No wonder they lost in real life...

[biggp07]

Thanks Xpyre for opening this thread! It will only enhance our understanding of the actions from each of these great players and help us to improve our game. I've only been playing for a couple months myself. I love this game and love the AAR's section to learn more all the time.

I think its hard to say who has a real advantage at this point. It appears that soundoff does, but his move into Florida (Woods) and depending on what he does in Kentucky (McClellen vs A.S. Johnston) are both toss ups at this point and could go either way. I'm trying to decide for myself (if it were me) where would I concentrate the effort to gain the biggest advantage.

The Florida invasion was definately a distractor to Banks! But unless Soundoff has another force to "push the breach" and open yet another front his gain won't last for long and it will be in the end pointless I think. He (Soundoff) needs to make an attempt into Georgia or Alabama and it could be done from here (I think) but can it be done effectively and quickly. Woods cannot hold out there through the winter, so it needs to be exploited now! I think he stands to gain the biggest progress here and pull Banks from other fronts, the idea being to try and overwhelm Banks with too many possible breaches into his "soft underbelly"! Just my 2 cents worth!

The A.S. Johnston dillema is one that I would wait and see what kind of move Banks will make before I make any move, other than to cover flanks, plug holes and hold position. Soundoff doesn't have enough troops yet there to make a effective advance towards the key positions IMHO. The key positions being Nashville, FT Henry Donelson and Island 10. If he (soundoff) does make a move now it will open up the back door for Banks and Banks will certainly exploit that! And with Van Dorn and Watie hooking up and sitting tight its not likely Soundoff would be able to hold that theater for long.

So I would like to see Soundoff try and exploit the Florida invasion. I think thats where he will make his most progress by continuing to distract Banks there to pull him from other places is the best strategy at this point. Soundoff will need to counter Banks with political and financial decisions in order to keep that edge as well. Should not be too hard for the Union since they have this advantage from the start anyway but it can't be overlooked. Soundoff could make some gains here in NM and VP if anticipated correctly.

As far as the East goes, I think it was a good move by Soundoff to bring in Grant. Although Grant does not have the "rank" yet it shoudln't take him long in the position he is at. This definately should draw the attention of Banks and Banks has to respect him. So there will be plenty of opportunity for Grant to increase his worth so to speak by battling in this theater. And if Grant gets there quickly he could be redeployed to another theater (Kentucky his old stomping grounds) and do some more campaigning there. I guess I see ALOT of potential here and will watch it in the hopes that Grant does gain some "quick wins".

Well, this is only my humble opinion of course and I am far from being an expert on this game. BTW, I have never played a PBEM game so if either of you are interested please PM and lets discuss a possible game.

[bburns9]

Thanks again for the thread xpyre! I've also been following along, keeping my comments to myself, but have been anxiously wanting to share. I've had the game for about 1 month now, but am a relatively frequent wargamer, so I picked this one up (at least the basics) pretty quick. I won my first campaign as the USA in Oct of 1862, but this AAR has demonstrated how a human opponent is nothing like the AI, let alone two seasoned gamers like Soundoff and Banks. I can safely say, I'd be getting my a** handed to me right now by either one of them.

So on to my thoughts. I think it is telling how you have to treat a campaign game for it is, a campaign that will be full of victories and defeats. Banks' defeat at Annapolis might have caused players playing the AI to just hit the "Reset" button. But as you can see, he's regrouped and will certainly not be a push over in Virginia. In fact, if he has one major victory in VA, that theatre could change significantly.

I initially questioned Soundoff's move with Wood in Tallahasee. Though now that he is reinforcing the position, it could make it interesting. I look at it this way.

1. If you are just going to raid (destroy the depot and some rail), you don't need a full division (especially this early in the game with the lack of commanders and troops)

2. If you are doing a raid in force with intent on remaining, one division isn't enough. IMHO, you want at least 2 full divisions with several small independent brigades to act as a garrison for any major conquests. With the long term intent being that you would reinforce this front regularly as the Union #'s advantage begins to show. Possibly even putting an Army HQ in the region when they become available later.

But I got to thinking about a General Patton quote, " L'audace, L'audace, Tou jour L'audace (any French contributors feel free to correct the spelling and interpretation, it's been many years since my high school French classes). Which loosely means "Audacity, Audacity, more Audacity". I don't think Banks ever considered this a potential move, and has to be scratching his head as to what the implications might be. Any time you can get the other side thinking about and reacting to what you're doing, so much the better. I'm really curious to see how Banks reacts to the arrival of the next division from the Peninsula. And further, if he recognizes that that division came from the Peninsula, will he press Milroy there?

Frankly, if it was me and I knew where the new division came (another piece of valuable insight I pulled from this AAR is how to look for such things) from, I'd probably leave a token force around FL to contain Wood & Co. Then make a move against Milroy in force.

Anyway, thanks again for the thread!

BB

[cobraII]

This has been a very good aar so far.
Now if i was in Banks position i would go on the defense in Virginia, unless soundoff moves a portion of his troops into a position that they could be destroyed, however that will probably not happen, so if i was Banks i would try and build a division sized force to launch from knoxville to hit Lexington then move on cincinnati. A move like this would keep any offensive plans for moving on tennasee or bowling green, unattainable because soundoffs supply line would be wrecked pretty good. Thats the move i would do if i was banks, put pressure in the west and maneuver Mcclellens command to move into a position where it can be destroyed. Soundoff would have to send troops West if that happened. Which would improve Banks situation in Virginia

[slimey.rock]

An assault on Cincinnati would certainly ease up pressure in the East for Banks and maybe, if he's lucky, draw away Grant's attention. But I don't think Banks has the resources to raise such a force. Even if he could Raise a substantial force, doing so in the deep Appalachian mountiains is no easy task.

I think if Soundoff is currently in a good position if he's patient. With a turn in the weather and a little luck from activation, he might be able to launch a dual assualt on Charlottesville and have an unfortified path to Richmond. And until the corps formation event fires, Banks can't defend the Army of the Potomic from both Fredricksburg and the road to Charlottesville at the same time.

I'm not sure what turn the corps formation event fires, but once it does, Banks can have a corps stationed at Culpepper and Fredricksburg that mutually protect each other.

Anyways, that's my two cents. I can't wait to see what happens when the snow melts and the mud dries.

[cobraII]

At Knoxville is fastes route through appalachian mountains, if he waits till late march or early april most of the weather will be fair so he could march forced march that is all the way to lexington in one turn then next turn rail to place just south of cincinnnate and march the across and take it. Usualy takes enemy by surprise because they dont expect a force to come out of the appalachians like that, usualy when i do that i send four cav units one to each of the railspots south of lousiville and then to the spot between louivile and lexington, this plan works best if enemy is at bowling green, but if they are at louiville it works still because you have rails cut, so enemy will have to march to stop you.

[xpyre]

Cobra II
That would certainly be a bold move. I like it! I'd love to see how that would turn out. I might even try it against Athena in my current game just to see the issues. I'd never thought you could get from Knoxville to Lexington KY that quickly!

My worry would be getting there and then not winning the battle - leaving me short on supply and a long way from home. Supply problems almost have to be experienced before you know what you can get away with!

Given Soundoff's tentative approach it would rattle him for sure. I notice that he hasn't done a map of that area for many turns... a sure sign that he has currently decided that nothing can/will happen there!

[cobraII]

Cobra II
That would certainly be a bold move. I like it! I'd love to see how that would turn out. I might even try it against Athena in my current game just to see the issues. I'd never thought you could get from Knoxville to Lexington KY that quickly!

My worry would be getting there and then not winning the battle - leaving me short on supply and a long way from home. Supply problems almost have to be experienced before you know what you can get away with!

Given Soundoff's tentative approach it would rattle him for sure. I notice that he hasn't done a map of that area for many turns... a sure sign that he has currently decided that nothing can/will happen there!

Well if kentucky has suceeded you can see the area you, i know that does not show how many troops are there, but if the person has a leader there and you use information you have from what your opponenets moves have been like in that area you can tell wheter or not its a safe choice to attack.

[xpyre]

The great thing about these AARs is being able to see both sides thoughts simultaneously.

Soundoff's advance in Kentucky is going as he planned (granted he has probably called off the attack at Bowling Green) but Banks thinks he is in trouble.
Banks is of the same opinion as me that US Grant is not in a good position and could easily become unstuck.

Will be interesting to see the result of the next turn. It could be a big one.
Still feel that the situation is very evenly balanced and could certainly go either way.

[slimey.rock]

So what do you guys think of the recent movements?

[ncuman]

So what do you guys think of the recent movements?

I like the moves by Soundoff in the West taking Paducah. This puts him in good position to either head south and take Island 10 (what I would do) or else he could combine Foster's Corps and Pope's Corps and make a strong advance on Forts Donelson and Lee. Lots of options available to him at this point.

On a side note, I think it is kind of wierd that Soundoff is having supply problems in Florida. Does anyone have an idea what is going on with that?

[ncuman]

Forgot to mention that this is a new tactic that Banks is trying in Virginia. It will be interesting to see how it works for him.

[xpyre]

Slowly but surely the extra resources are beginning to count.
For Banks to keep his head above water much longer he needs to have luck and skill in Virginia.
Soundoff has his strength split. He will just swallow each objective in turn unless Banks can knock some of the stacks out of the game.
Very interesting move down the peninsular by Banks... looks like if Soundoff gets lucky he will be able to get to Richmond before Lee gets back... but will he go for it?
I've no idea what happened to the supply in Florida but there do appear to be some black holes where supply just doesn't seem to go... maybe Woods is in one?

[gchristie]

This AAR is now in the top 20 of most viewed.

Really enjoying it. Like a couple of boxers circling for the TKO. Something big is going to break in the next move or two.

While Soundoff's resources are coming to bear, Banks will have him out in the open in Fredricksburg.

[bburns9]

I think the action is really going to get going this summer. I can't help but wonder what Soundoff and Banks will think after they are done and can review each other's thread as well as this one. In some cases it's like they're reading each other's minds (as a good general should always attempt to do):

Case in point:

Banks:[color="Red"] The only move I'm very concerned that Soundoff might make is a flanking march with Grant to take Petersburg. If I lose that rail hub. Lee's army will starve in a matter of a month...maybe more. I think the only thing stopping Soundoff from making that move is the fact that it would open Grant up to being completely cut-off.[/color]

Soundoff: For US Grant though I propose a much more daring move. An incisive thrust at Petersburg. In planning the advance the first requirement was to try to sidestep Johnstons force. Unfortunately this slows me down but I cannot afford to take the chance of engaging Johnstons troops and then having Lee, Jackson and Longstreet marching to the guns. So a shimmy to the right it is.

Banks: [color="red"]Huger is ordered to continue to Burkeville and set up a defense there. If he is approached by Grant's army...Huger will retreat.[/color]

Soundoff: That puts Burkeville directly in front of the route of march. I would not be surprised to discover Huger's division digging in on the outskirts. Now the trouble is under normal circumstances the march I'm envisaging for Grant, even with these decent weather conditions, takes 16 days. So he's been ordered to force march his troops. If it works it cuts the time down to 13 days. Just enough to reach Petersburg. Its so much on the limit though that whist Grant has Red assault posture orders I've only feel comfortable in giving him Blue conservative attack orders. If I'm right about Huger entrenching at Burkeville I might not get through his defences.

The result of the next turn could very well tilt the balance of power in this theatre.

[Jim-NC]

I have noted that in this game, the big risks have turned into big oopsies. Take Banks 2 risky attacks (once with Joe Johnston, and once with AS Johnston). The other side seems to guess/divine the attack (see Grant's attack this turn, Banks figured out that soundoff would attack there). This has been very informative.

[gchristie]

Seems like Soundoff is asking a lot of Grant's command, to fight all the way to Norfolk, and then to carry the town, all without the supply and combat benefits of supply wagons. This will be interesting to see if his gamble pays off.

Because they both have such a keen understanding of the map, and the mechanics of the game, they can anticipate so well what the other is planning. But it is amusing when they assume incorrectly.

Banks has made the interpretation of the battle results screen into an art form. I need to pay better attention to those screens and start "seeing what I'm looking at."

Hope this lasts for many more turns.

[xpyre]

Fabulously entertaining though it is, I think that Soundoff is getting into quite a lead.

The AS Johnston attack was poorly orchestrated by Banks (by his high standards)... the CSA can't really make a single mistake to keep parity and that is the second one Banks has made.

Unless Soundoff makes a big mistake in Virginia in the next couple of moves then I think it is all over.

It will still be interesting to see if Banks can pull it out of the fire...

[MVDH]

Just got back from reading Soundoffs Early June orders. Interesting move to send Grant on to Petersburg. I am very interested to see how Banks reacts to that dangerous move.

However, I do wonder if Grant does make it all the way to Norfolk, the 2 wings of the army will then be widely separated with Lee squarely in the middle. Will Lee bottle up Grant at Norfolk and then strike the Union Corps to the west? As Banks likes to say, stay tuned.... And I think we all will!

Mark

[slimey.rock]

Mark, I think you're right. There are so many different results that could happen at this point. For all we know Grant won't even make it past burkeville.

[biggp07]

Yep!...I am watching this like my life depended on it!!! I'm on the edge of my seat and can hardly wait for the next turn posting! I just completed a turn in my own game where Grant assaulted in a blizzard and took the town with ease! I expect a showdown between Grant and Lee, winner take all!

[gchristie]

A close look at the map, and their planned moves, indicates that the next turn should result in anything but "A Stillness at Appomattox."

[MVDH]

A close look at the map, and their planned moves, indicates that the next turn should result in anything but "A Stillness at Appomattox."

Quite right, the stillness was indeed broken at Appomattox...

My take on the battle is a big victory for Grant. While it is indeed true that the rebels blocked Grant from occupying Petersburg they only did so at a great cost. Getting the rebels out of their trenches and out in the open where Grant can pommel them is just the kind of attrition battle the Union wants to fight in the East. 2 or three more battles with losses of 8 -9,000 men will leave Lee without an army at all. This battle more resembled the conflict in the summer of 64 not 62.

Should be interesting to see if Soundoff keeps moving forward after Lee's Army seeking its destruction as Grant did in that fateful summer of 64...

"I will defeat Lee's Army even if it takes all summer" Grant.

Mark

[dublish]

Is anyone else still chuckling over the historically disastrous attempt to combine Van Dorn and McCulloch in Arkansas?

@MDVH: The quote is actually something along the lines of: "I propose to fight it out on this line if it takes all summer." Which is kind of amusing, since it took a fall, winter and spring after that, and he didn't even fight it out on that line (Spotsylvania, IIRC). But I agree- that's the kind of battle Banks can't afford to fight, and I was surprised to see him mention it as a strategic victory when all it did was open the door to Fredericksburg as wide as it could possibly get.