Pbem

[poweraxe]

Fair enough; if we do this, Altaris should share his .sav and .map for the rest to edit and use.

[poweraxe]

On an unrelated matter: Mitra, what software do you use to record?

[Mitra]

zd soft screen recorder

[powcarrot27]

In my game, I still control Koenigsberg and Lemberg. I can't remember who won the battle at bruxells. I had the bug the previous turn also and downloaded the patch with q replaced in the address. In the diplomatic phase I saw Germany fail with Turkey, but saw nothing about Italy.

[Mitra]

Yes probably you go out of sync one of october phase, perhaps before the bug. Anyway just to remember to all people: when you finish your move, save the turn (with the button save) and close the game.

Never:

1 - press the "mail" icon button for generate the ord file and go out without save the turn
2 - modify a save turn file after have sent the ord file, the sav file must be the same of the moment you generate the ord file when you press the change turn button.

Altaris please can you clear the actual directory from the ord file now present, and insert 4 versions of your events october 1914 sav file (with map file also). Do you know how change the players from AI to Human in the .sav file?

After Altaris insert the files: take your, open it with the game, play the turn and generate the ord file to place in the directory.

[Altaris]

Probably better for one of you guys to do it that are more familiar with how to modify the files. I posted the turn and map file on Dropbox, let me know if you need anything else from me.

[Mitra]

Ok, done everyone takes his sav and map file. Run the turn, save, get out and send the ord file like usual

[poweraxe]

The files dont work for me; when loading it doesnt start but instead seems to go back to the main menu (and is locked up)

[Altaris]

Try downloading the files again and see if they work now. When I opened it up, I notice there's a line towards the top that references the original save file name, I changed this to match the new file names, think that will work. Won't hurt to at least give it a try.

[calvinus]

Hello, I hope you're enjoying this 4p pbem game, mainly after the latest fix (1.08q).

For the synch stuff, I'm working on a new feature that will allow you PBEMers to load re-synched games without having to tweak the .SAV file.

My idea is that the game creates a .PBM text file for each PBEM game, each player has his own .PBM file, one per each PBEM game. This file contains the faction actually played by the player, so this file is not to be shared with other opponents (like done for .ORD files), it's personal.
Thus, every time the game loads the save file, the faction informations stored in .PBM file take precedence over those stored in .SAV file. That means all PBEM players can share the .SAV file and are requested to have a personal .PBM file. Provided the .SAV is shared, when an out-of-synch occurs, there's no need for each player to modify the .SAV file, because the important assets are in the .PBM file.

[poweraxe]

The files worked, thanks Altaris.

I have posted the orders file for the new events turn now. Mitra/powcarrot, Let us know if it works on your machines too.

Hello, I hope you're enjoying this 4p pbem game, mainly after the latest fix (1.08q).

For the synch stuff, I'm working on a new feature that will allow you PBEMers to load re-synched games without having to tweak the .SAV file.

My idea is that the game creates a .PBM text file for each PBEM game, each player has his own .PBM file, one per each PBEM game. This file contains the faction actually played by the player, so this file is not to be shared with other opponents (like done for .ORD files), it's personal.
Thus, every time the game loads the save file, the faction informations stored in .PBM file take precedence over those stored in .SAV file. That means all PBEM players can share the .SAV file and are requested to have a personal .PBM file. Provided the .SAV is shared, when an out-of-synch occurs, there's no need for each player to modify the .SAV file, because the important assets are in the .PBM file.

Sounds like a good idea, thanks calvinus!

[Mitra]

ok, sent. It was completly out of sync the troops position is very different from what I had in my files.

Calvinus, non è che hai una documentazione sul formato e struttura del file sav. Volevo provare a fare appena ho un pò di tempo in VB o Java un parser che permettesse di verificare la consistenza dei vari sav files tra loro. Ma non ho idea di qualche pezzi del file siano rilevanti per farlo.

[calvinus]

Calvinus, non è che hai una documentazione sul formato e struttura del file sav. Volevo provare a fare appena ho un pò di tempo in VB o Java un parser che permettesse di verificare la consistenza dei vari sav files tra loro. Ma non ho idea di qualche pezzi del file siano rilevanti per farlo.

Sfortunatamente no. Posso passarti i sorgenti delle classi di dominio usate per gestire gli oggetti che rappresentano le entità del gioco, ma è "un pò" complesso...

In ogni caso, a meno che ho frainteso, questo tool non riuscirebbe a risolvere il problema. La perdita di sincronia è dovuta a qualche forse imperscrutabile problema insito nel PBEM di WW1. Bachi del PBEM ne ho risolti davvero tanti, ma evidentemente c'è ancora qualcosa che è sfuggito alle verifiche e che non riesco a riprodurre. La causa non è nel salvataggio della partita, ma nel protocollo di risoluzione delle battaglie, delle ritirate e delle procedure di aggiornamento di fine turno. Per quanto la generazione dei numeri casuali sia sincronizzata, c'è ancora qualcosa che sfugge al controllo. E man mano che si va avanti senza sincronia, la de-sincronizzazione va aggravandosi sempre più, come è facile intuire...

[Mitra]

Capisco, in effetti i fattori calcolati ogni volta devono essere un'infinità. Anche creare un exe con generazione di log dev'essere un problema ci sarebbe troppe variabili da salvare e confrontare. Ma a questo punto non è meglio passare su uno schema host->client? Nel senso che l'elaborazione viene fatta da un singolo PC, che passa poi indietro i fattori casuali già calcolati o direttamente la situazione di fine turno, in quest'ultimo caso si perderebbe il replay, ma meglio che il desync

Il programma che avevo in mente doveva solo confrontare le chiavi rilevanti dei quattro sav per vedere se davano gli stessi valori, però in effetti lo scambio sarebbe da fare subito dopo l'inizio del turno, prima che si inseriscano nuovi ordini, altrimenti comunque risulterebbero diversi, poco pratico direi.

[poweraxe]

If these posts are also meant for the rest of us, be aware that I don't speak Italian (dont know about the others).

[Mitra]

Sorry Axe, are mainly technical discussions about how reduce the desync; I asked about the possibility of different technical solutions. Like it is now, according to Calvinus explication of what cause the desync, it should be better exchange the sav and map file after every military turn.

[Mitra]

Calvinus but if the PBM will contains information which have the priority over the SAV file, i suppose it will contains data not subject to desync, like at example the unit's positions? Correct?

[powcarrot27]

Did AH beat my Serb 1st army at Belgrade in September turn? I never recall them doing so.

[calvinus]

Calvinus but if the PBM will contains information which have the priority over the SAV file, i suppose it will contains data not subject to desync, like at example the unit's positions? Correct?

Not exactly. My purpose is to put in the PBM file the informations about the identity of the player. Indeed every time you modify the .SAV file received by another player, in order to synch again the game, you always change the informations about you players. That's my purpose, make you are no more requested to do such job, because these infos are to be found in the PBM file that is yours, that does not change nor modified and is not shared with your opponents.

So in simple words, every time you receive the .SAV file by an opponent to synch the game, you just paste it into the SaveGame folder and nothing more is to be done.

[calvinus]

Sorry Axe, are mainly technical discussions about how reduce the desync; I asked about the possibility of different technical solutions. Like it is now, according to Calvinus explication of what cause the desync, it should be better exchange the sav and map file after every military turn.

Yes, quoted. Indeed this is the procedure done for AgeOD engined games... The bad result is however that you cannot see the resolution procedure of end turn. Only the "host" can do that...

Also, every player should be asked to modify the .SAV, that's why I'm planning to add the .PBM file feature (see above).

[Mitra]

Ma non è fattibile eliminare la parte random? Mi spiego meglio: l'host riceve gli ord, processa il turno, invece e manda indietro agli avversari i files contenenti i fattori di generazione casuale che adesso causano il desync. Praticamente la registrazione di cosa il PC client deve fare a fronte di una scelta dove prima sceglieva l'AI locale. Assumendo l'host fisso sul giocatore che tiene la Germania. Altrimenti generare un log file testo che esperto il log che adesso c'è sulle schermate di battaglia, che mi sembra molto completo.

Different game options in the player settings can have a impact on the desync (like AI aggressivity at example)?

[Mitra]

Did AH beat my Serb 1st army at Belgrade in September turn? I never recall them doing so.

Is the effect of desync. Guys the choice are only two: or we proceed from october 1914 or we restart exchange every turn the sav file from one of us we choice as "host", the other three will use the ord files only for have a similar (not necessary) identical idea of clashes.

[calvinus]

Ma non è fattibile eliminare la parte random? Mi spiego meglio: l'host riceve gli ord, processa il turno, invece e manda indietro agli avversari i files contenenti i fattori di generazione casuale che adesso causano il desync. Praticamente la registrazione di cosa il PC client deve fare a fronte di una scelta dove prima sceglieva l'AI locale. Assumendo l'host fisso sul giocatore che tiene la Germania. Altrimenti generare un log file testo che esperto il log che adesso c'è sulle schermate di battaglia, che mi sembra molto completo.

Che significherebbe implementare un motore come i giochi AgeOD. In WW1 è tutto molto più complicato perché ci sono diversi livelli di giocabilità (attivazione armata per armata, gioco a turni, WEGO) e in più le battaglie permettono l'interazione di scelte tattiche, tutta roba che nei giochi AgeOD non è nemmeno prevista. Che significherebbe riscrivere completamente il 70-80% del gioco...

Different game options in the player settings can have a impact on the desync (like AI aggressivity at example)?

These options are always synchronized as soon the end turn procedure is executed. All ORD files contains the settings of each players, so allowing the game engine to set them properly (differences in settings are resolved taking the proper precedences).

[Mitra]

Che significherebbe implementare un motore come i giochi AgeOD. In WW1 è tutto molto più complicato perché ci sono diversi livelli di giocabilità (attivazione armata per armata, gioco a turni, WEGO) e in più le battaglie permettono l'interazione di scelte tattiche, tutta roba che nei giochi AgeOD non è nemmeno prevista. Che significherebbe riscrivere completamente il 70-80% del gioco...

Tutto qua?! basta poco che ci vuole?

[Mitra]

Something doesn't work with my diplomatic phase: first I conquested Liege during the event phase processing, I don't think is it possible normally, usually you saw a replay if battle of previous military turn. Second in the diplomatic phase I cannot move my ambassador, two of them result already as "in mission" and the others cannot be placed.

Calvinus ti volevo segnalare questa cosa: provando questo turno ho visto che se ricaricavo il file di salvataggio senza prima uscire dal gioco (insomma passando subito dal menu principale), per un paio di secondi vedevo l'interfaccia del gioco "sporca" con i dati della fase da cui ero uscito (insomma ho visto i pulsanti diplomazia, mentre avevo ricaricato il file eventi).
Dato che può essere successo durante la partita che qualcuno di noi giocasse due turni consecutivi in questa maniera, può essere che nel gioco rimanga qualche variabile sporca dal turno precedente?

Guys during the match did happen to someone of you to play two turns consecutive without go out from the game before? (you process two ord series without close the game between the two).

[Altaris]

I think I've done some consecutive turns without exiting fully... didn't realize that was a bad thing. Gotta say, after trying out a TCP/IP game with Poweraxe last night and largely banging our heads in futility at constant issues, I'm seriously doubtful of the feasibility of a full MP game of this. It's a great concept behind the game, but the bugs are tough to deal with in MP.

[calvinus]

Something doesn't work with my diplomatic phase: first I conquested Liege during the event phase processing, I don't think is it possible normally, usually you saw a replay if battle of previous military turn.

Siege resolution at the end of Events phase is quite normal.

Second in the diplomatic phase I cannot move my ambassador, two of them result already as "in mission" and the others cannot be placed.

You should see a tooltip saying what is the reason or a red (error) message when you click the move buttons. What does the tooltip or message says?

Calvinus ti volevo segnalare questa cosa: provando questo turno ho visto che se ricaricavo il file di salvataggio senza prima uscire dal gioco (insomma passando subito dal menu principale), per un paio di secondi vedevo l'interfaccia del gioco "sporca" con i dati della fase da cui ero uscito (insomma ho visto i pulsanti diplomazia, mentre avevo ricaricato il file eventi).
Dato che può essere successo durante la partita che qualcuno di noi giocasse due turni consecutivi in questa maniera, può essere che nel gioco rimanga qualche variabile sporca dal turno precedente?

Guys during the match did happen to someone of you to play two turns consecutive without go out from the game before? (you process two ord series without close the game between the two).

Known issue, quitting the game before loading a new save is strongly suggested.

[calvinus]

I think I've done some consecutive turns without exiting fully... didn't realize that was a bad thing. Gotta say, after trying out a TCP/IP game with Poweraxe last night and largely banging our heads in futility at constant issues, I'm seriously doubtful of the feasibility of a full MP game of this. It's a great concept behind the game, but the bugs are tough to deal with in MP.

Quoted, quickest solution is to move towards a AgeOD-like PBEM engine. A "host" executes the end-turn operation and sends the .SAV & .MAP files to all "clients". On my side I'm going to develop the PBM feature described above, that will allow you to play the shared save files without having to tweak its content every time...

[Mitra]

I think I've done some consecutive turns without exiting fully... didn't realize that was a bad thing. Gotta say, after trying out a TCP/IP game with Poweraxe last night and largely banging our heads in futility at constant issues, I'm seriously doubtful of the feasibility of a full MP game of this. It's a great concept behind the game, but the bugs are tough to deal with in MP.

Don't worry, me too I don't know this, I only had the doubt casually. Perhaps for the PBEM version after the pressing the save button it should be better force the closing of game.

[Mitra]

You should see a tooltip saying what is the reason or a red (error) message when you click the move buttons. What does the tooltip or message says?

No, no messages or tooltips, simply he doesn't move.