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rickd79
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Joseph E. Johnston

Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:18 pm

It looks like we haven't gotten to Joe Johnston yet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_E._Johnston

137 CSA Joe Johnston ldr_CSA_JJohnston3 $Skirmisher $Indian_Fighter NULL NULL 15 20 3 4 General 1 NULL 3 1 2

I like the 3 for strategic rating, based on what people are saying about how much that hurts movement around the map.
I also like the 1 for Offense, but should we bump him up to a 3 for Defense (Kennesaw Mountain)?

"Skirmisher" seems very appropriate. I'm wondering if "OverCautious" might be a good fit as well. After all, that's what got him removed in 1864.

Chris0827
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Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:38 pm

137 CSA Joe Johnston ldr_CSA_JJohnston3 $Skirmisher $Indian_Fighter $Charismatic NULL 15 20 3 4 General 1 NULL 3 2 4

Is my proposal. Johnston understood that the confederate armies were more inportant than confederate cities. He was careful about spending the lives of his men because he knew they couldn't afford heavy losses. Only Lee was more highly regarded by the men than Johnston. He restored the morale of the Army of Tennessee after Bragg's removal. Sherman was very happy when Johnston was replaced by Hood.

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rickd79
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Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:00 pm

I wonder if a future patch could accomodate something like these traits (The names of the traits are kind of a joke, but what the heck, I'll throw it out there for scrutiny):
"Humanitarian" - Commander more likely to keep his Army intact, keep casualties lower (Johnston)
"Butcher" - (Grant 1864, Hood 1664/1865) - Commander more willing to accept higher casualties during an offensive operation before an assault is called off.

(Coding-wise, this may not even be possible....just an idea)

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rickd79
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Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:04 pm

Actually, regarding my previous post, I guess "Skirmisher" and "Reckless" cover these ideas.

frank7350
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Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:10 pm

i think i like 3-1-4 better, but can see 3-2-4. i like the traits listed. also, johnston is a candidate for a lower pol rating due to his tension with davis

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Spharv2
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Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:37 pm

Johnston's seniority should be high (I believe he was the 4th ranking officer at the start, behind only Cooper, AS Johnston, and Beauregard, And it was this last one that really poisoned his relationship to Davis, they were friendly prior to that). His POL value lower. I've always been a Johnston supporter, so take this with a grain of salt. His initial attack plan against McClellan at Seven Pines was actually a well laid out plan, but failed in the execution. I think a 2 rating for offense would be good, with the lowered Strat rating, this would simulate the "good plan, poor coordination" part. He rarely had the chance to go on the offensive, aside from Seven Pines. Defensively, I think he was superb. The Atlanta campaign gets a lot of flack because he never tried to attack Sherman, but I think Hood showed why that was.

Sherman's army was simply better at this point. Better trained, better supplied, better led at the lower levels. Johnston's strategy was the perfect example of a delaying action, and worked well, frustrating Sherman quite a bit. This campaign is a near perfect duplicate of Grant's Overland campaign, going on at the same time. Lee gets tons of credit for his great movement and blocking, while Johnston gets very little. One difference is that the Atlanta campaign began with an embarassing CS defeat around Chattanooga, while the Overland campaign began with what was, by the standards of the day, a US defeat in the Wilderness. Johnston pulled that army back together and gave ground quite slowly to a superior force. I think that is well worth a 4 defensive rating.

I would consider giving him an administrator or morale boosting trait too, seeing as how he was the one that was always turned to to try and rebuild a demoralized or defeated army. And he usually did a pretty good job of it considering what he had to work with.

Chris0827
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Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:09 pm

Joe Johnston outranked Beauregard. Cooper, AS Johnston, and Lee were ahead of him. He was the highest ranked officer in the US army to join the confederacy yet Davis put three men ahead of him. Unlike Lincoln, Davis couldn't put his personal feelings aside. The Davis- Johnston feud started at West point. They had a fist fight over a girl and Johnston won.

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Korrigan
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Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:05 pm

137 CSA Joseph E. Johnston ldr_CSA_JJohnston3 $Skirmisher
$Good_Administrator_Army $OverCautious NULL 15 15 3 4 General 1 NULL 4 2 4

Rational: I agree with Sharpv2, Johnston was not THAT bad, but he was always in the worst conditions. I think he was a very good commander in Defense and he did a good job at keeping his army as a fighting unit.

Comments?
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Chris0827
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Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:08 am

Johnston should get Charismatic. Here are some quotes from confederate soldiers about Johnston courtesy of Shelby Foote.

"At every Bivouac in the field, at every fireside in the rear, the joyous dawn of day seemed to have arisen from the night." On hearing that Johnston had been named commander of the Army of Tennessee.

"He restored the soldier's pride; he brought the manhood back to the private's bosom; he changed the order of roll-call, standing guard, drill, and such nonsense as that. The revolution was complete. He was loved, respected, admired; yea, almost worshipped by his troops. I do not believe there was a soldier in his army but would gladly have died for him."

"I never saw troops happier or more certain of success, A sort of grand halo illuminated every soldier's face... We were going to whip and rout the Yankees." After a letter from Johnston to the troops was read.

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Korrigan
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Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:14 am

Charismatic If the commander, provides +5 Maximum Cohesion and a +25% increase in the fatigue recovery rate of units under his command.
Good_Administrator_Army If the commander, provides a +15% increase in the fatigue recovery rate of units under his command.

Well, Good_Administror_Army was supposed to make for this, and we have already a lot of "charismatic" generals, some far more charismatic then Johnston IMHO...
"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference." Mark Twain



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frank7350
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Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:03 am

we do have alot of charismatic generals....

perhaps that spreadsheet that marecone was advocating will help. we may be able to make some of the charismatic leaders into administrators.

until then, i'm ok with either trait for johnston.. we have so many more to go!!! :niark:

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Spharv2
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Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:38 am

Chris0827 wrote:Johnston should get Charismatic. Here are some quotes from confederate soldiers about Johnston courtesy of Shelby Foote.


Johnston supporter that I am, you have to take that with a small boulder of salt, considering exactly who he was following. :niark:

That said, it was pretty much the same in most of his commands, he took care of his men, and they did love him for it.

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Korrigan
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Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:34 pm

[color="SeaGreen"]137 CSA Joseph E. Johnston ldr_CSA_JJohnston3 $Skirmisher $Good_Administrator_Army $OverCautious NULL 15 15 3 4 General 1 NULL 4 2 4[/color]


Validate, we'll look at the Charismatic issue as a whole.

I propose the following distinction:

Charismatic: The General has a true leadership aura. Ex: Grant
Good_Admin_Army: The soldiers love you because they know you care
"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference." Mark Twain



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frank7350
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Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:40 pm

i like the distinction...

part of the problem that ppl aren't using good admin i think is that what immediately pops to mind...atleast mine, is a preeminent paper pusher/desk jockey... but, if you realize that it can be read as a caring leader...well, shucks.

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Korrigan
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Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:48 pm

I don't know if Pocus can easily change some names
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Pocus
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Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:04 am

Change the names to your liking, they are just labels.
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Shabaka
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Tue May 20, 2008 6:49 am

I would actually lobby for a change in Joe Johnston's ratings. I believe a 5-1-6 or a 4-2-6 is more appropriate. His defensive skills were at least the equal of Lee's. He gave up similar amount of territory in the Atlanta campaign to Sherman as Lee gave up to Grant in the Overland campaign. Both campaigns covered approximately the same time period as well. Sherman had 80K to
120K troops while Johnston had 50K to 70K. These numbers are similar to the Grant to Lee ratio in the Overland campaign and Lee did no better than Johnston.

nytram01
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Fri May 22, 2009 3:47 am

I know I'm dragging up an old thread here but I'd like to say somethings on Joe Johnston. Unlikely to change anything in the game I suppose but he is my favorite at the moment and I came here a little late to get involved in the prior discussions.

Joe Johnston was a very good army builder and trainer. He exhibited this talent in the Shenandoah prior to 1st Manassas/Bull Run when he created a strong (for the time) Army of the Shenandoah and brought it up to be arguably the most professional force in North America. He was helped in this by Edmund Kirby Smith, Thomas J. Jackson, A.P. Hill, JEB Stuart and William N. Pendleton but this doesn't diminsh his contribution it only shows his ability to delegate responsibilities to his subordinates.

He also showed his ability to organize an Army following the battle of 1st Manassas/Bull Run when he had to sort through the chaos that victory brought that mostly volunteer army. His frequents arguements with Jeff Davis and Judah P. Benjamin would hamper his progress in this and the fact that power in Virginia was split between him and Lee didn't help either.

He showed his ability to organize and train Armies in the Vicksburg Campaign but the poor state of Confederate transport made progress there slow. He showed this ability again when in command of the Army of Tennessee when he had to not only bring order to the chaos Bragg's purges had brought but restore morale to a beaten and demoralized force.

The most impressive moment that Johnston exhibited this skill was when he was returned to command in the Carolinas and in the space of about a month created a strong viable army that not only stood between the Army of the Tennessee and Sherman's final victory but almost routed Slocum's wing at Bentonville.

Politically Joe was supported by all of Davis' opposition. This opposition, led by Louis T. Wigfall from Texas, used Johnston as their chief weapon against Davis and his running of the War from about the point of Johnston's wounding at Seven Pine/Fair Oak's right to the end of the War. Joe went to them because they were a sympathetic ear to his problems when Davis' didn't want to listen to him (which it turned out was most of the time) and he was prepared to overlook the discord he was causing in Confederate Politics and pretend that he didn't know anything about that just so he could play to that sympathetic audience.

This left the Confederacy split in high politics about 50/50 with only the fact that Johnston main detracter and the man who he was involved in a heavy feud with being the President being the deciding factor.

Strategically Johnston's view rested on the ideas of Concentration of Manpower, use of interior lines for wuick distribution and chiefly on the idea that territory lost can be retaken later but manpower lost is lost forever.

Tactically Johnston was certainly good. He was not prepared to attempt something he felt hi Army wasn't capable of (as seen in his refusal to advance into the North following 1st Manassas/Bull Run, his refusal to launch into a suicide mission against Grant at the Big Black River and Vicksburg and when he turned down the offensive for the Army of Tennessee proposed by Davis and Bragg where by the AoT would march up to Knoxville and try to get behind Sherman's positions but leave Atlanta defenseless and the AoT in a logistically usustainable position).

His battle plans usually involved some kind of flanking move (having been heavilly influenced and impressed by such things by Winfield Scott). At 1st Manassas/Bull Run it was Johnston he distributed the troops to the field and brought about eventual victory by leading the reinforcement to attack the Federal Flank. At Seven Pines/Fair Oak his plan called for Huger's division to succor the right flank, D.H. Hill's division to attack the Federal centre and attract their atention while Longstreet's enlargedd Division would stike at the weakened and exposed Federal Right Flank. AT Cassville his plan was for Hardee to draw the Army of the Tennessee and the Army of the Cumberland down towards Rome then double back toward Cassville to link up with the AoT again while Polk's Corps engaged the Army of the Ohio as it approached Cassville seperately from the other to Federal Armies and while the AotO was engaged Hood's Corps was to strike at it's flank. AT Bentonville the plan was for Braxton Bragg to engaged and halt the enemies advance while Hardee and D.H. Hill struck at the flank.

Joe's problem was in his execution.

At Seven Pines/ Fair Oaks he left the battle to begin on its own, fully believing that everyone understood the roles they had to play and leaving them to do as they were expected to. Only, not everyone knew their roles. Despite going over the plan in detail with Johnston the night before Longstreet didn't understand what he was supposed to be doing and got the deployment of the forces totally wrong, got in Hugers way and blamed him for it afterwards. The truth was that Johnston was to blame for not making sure his plan was being followed but Longstreet was to blame for getting such a simple plan so totally wrong.

At Cassville Johnston left the battle to begin on its own, again fully expecting everyone to know their roles. He had given each of his three subordinates the roles that suited them. Ever reliable Hardee was to demonstrate against the bulk of the Federal forces and withdraw, tricking them into thinking he was the rearguard for the whole Army. Polk, of average ability and better for morale than anything else, was given the simplest of tasks, engaging them Army of the Ohio and getting it to stay in position long enough for Hood to arrive. And the overly offensive Hood was to be the sword, to strike down on the enemy and do as much damage as possible. These plans were ruined when Hood move much to early and was not in the position he was expected to be in then withdrew following reports of federal presence at his rear without confirming if there was any presence there or not.

At Bentonville Johnston made sure the battle began but delegated much of the fighting to Bragg. Bragg crucially called for reinforcements and got Lafayette McLaw's division when it would have been better used in the flanking attack.

So while Lee's delegation to subordinate paid off Johnston's delegation to sbordinates didn't.

It is often overlooked just how much Johnston was loved by his men. When he was removed from command of the Army of Tennessee many Colonels and lower rnaking General's feared that a mutiney in the Army was imminent and went to great lengths to quiet the ranks. Some men deserted when news of Johnston's removal reached them but most of them remained though their morale was weakened.

When Joe Johnston returned to Georgia years after the war, when he was more well known for his feud with Davis than anything he had done during the war and was not all that popular with the people at large, he was going to a Confederate Memorial service with Edmunfd Kirby Smith in an open topped carridge when someone from the crowd spooted him and called out "that's Johnston! That's Joe Johnston!" doxens of men burst from the crowd and surrounded him, stretching their hands out to him in glee. Someone uncoupled the horses from the carridge and men took their place and pulled the old General the lenght of the parade ground cheering loudly as they went.

Sam Watkins probably summed up the common soldiers view of Old Joe Johnston when he learned of Johnston's death in 1891 when he said "Farewell old fellow! We privates loved you because you made us love ourselves."

So that was my general overview of Joe Johnston. A good builder and organizer of Armies, a general who liked to delegate responsibilities to subordinates but had little luck in doing so, a good logistician who always stayed within the bounderies of what was possible for his Army to achieve, a good tactician with a tendency toward flanking moves, a strategist who's philosphy rested on "manpower is more important than territory" and "manpower should be concentrated into large armies where it is needed most", a great morale builder, a major player politically who allowed himself to be used by the Davis-Opposition just so he could have a sympathetic audience, not a very original general nor all than naturally talented (he owed his succes to hard work mostly - good connections as well) but also not very lucky in independent command.

How this would translate to game stats I dont know. I've only recently gotten the game in truth, but that's my assement of Joe Johnston none the less.

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Colonel Dreux
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Fri May 29, 2009 8:51 pm

I'm with all the Joe Johnston supporters. He was very good. 4-2-4 is acceptable, I think. His numbers could be tweeked a little bit higher to separate him from Beauregard.
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kalamimau
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Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:28 am

Provided that
it is now 2013, perhaps in an update Johnston can recieve higher ratings. Not on his Offensive ratings very much, but other ratings. I suggest ratings of 5-3-6
Johnston was regarded in the era of Reconstruction by fellow officers, particularly Lee, whose genius and skills were poorly used by the Confederacy. He was a bitter subordinate who believed he should have been the most senior. However, Johnston was an utter master of defense and leadership of an army. Had he been sufficently supplied, the Carolina campaign would have been his. Bentonville was a beautifully planned attack that failed because of insufficent ammunition, and the skill of Sherman. No flaw was found in Johnston. Only because of Davis and a personal quarrel was Johnston regarded as inferior. Keep the anilities.

wsatterwhite
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Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:06 am

kalamimau wrote:Provided that
it is now 2013, perhaps in an update Johnston can recieve higher ratings. Not on his Offensive ratings very much, but other ratings. I suggest ratings of 5-3-6
Johnston was regarded in the era of Reconstruction by fellow officers, particularly Lee, whose genius and skills were poorly used by the Confederacy. He was a bitter subordinate who believed he should have been the most senior. However, Johnston was an utter master of defense and leadership of an army. Had he been sufficently supplied, the Carolina campaign would have been his. Bentonville was a beautifully planned attack that failed because of insufficent ammunition, and the skill of Sherman. No flaw was found in Johnston. Only because of Davis and a personal quarrel was Johnston regarded as inferior. Keep the anilities.


Much like Bragg and McClellan, any boost to Johnston's rankings should be coupled with a negative trait or two added that helps to represent why the officer failed to live up to those numbers. On at least one occasion (Seven Pines) and I believe a few during the Atlanta Campaign, a solid battle plan by Johnston was fouled up by communication problems with his wing/corps commanders- perhaps there is a trait that can be used to represent this?

Also, regarding the controversy surrounding Johnston's rank, Davis and Johnston amazingly both had legitimate arguments- Johnston's Brigadier rank in the US Army was a staff rank and Davis had a legitimate right to regard Johnston as still ranking behind AS Johnston and Lee in regards to line rank since all the Generals except Cooper received their ranks as field officers.

Aflemaor
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Joseph E Johnston

Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:00 pm

Twyx are you jealous of this kid that no one on here has any clue to who he is. Why the fuck would you even post this unless you wanted clarification on your own opinion on this random dude?

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Pocus
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Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:36 am

Message deleted because of foul word usage, this is a family board.

Saying that Johnston is also a random dude seems to indicate that you are also trolling these boards, which is not good for the life expectancy of your account here...
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