About the AACW patching policy and the integration of mods into official patches

[pasternakski]

That one could be "broke". The TransLink(s) are there, which is what I've been working on and correcting, however within the scenario files (.scn), the TransportLvl for 143 might still be set to =2. This was supposed to be corrected in v1.07f, however, since there were several iterations of v1.07f, it's possible, you don't have the latest one, which supposedly fixed 143 Amherst VA TransportLvl. This is one reason not to use the same version number for any update release whether preliminary or not.

Well, that certainly clarifies things.

You can check this by using Notepad to "Find" UID=143, six lines below it will be the TransportLvl for that region. Make sure it is =3, if not you can do a temporary fix by changing it to =3, then save the scenario. I'm not sure if this would fix a game in progress however.

Do you think we could ever get to a point where the current version of the game is controlled by the company that published it and the modders are rodding around in their own separate threads? I thought this was stated to be how things were going to be at one point, but here we are again with the "miasma" effect.

I stopped playing this game a couple of months ago while waiting for a definitive, solid patch to be published that would correct what was wrong, add what was needed, and have some longevity so that I could play a campaign game all the way through without having to start over or modify my style of play due to changes that inexorably come with bug fixes (and fixes of bugs introduced by interim patches). I'm still waiting (and for BoA Gold, btw, another game I would like to get back to enjoying if AGEod would finish the thing).

Howzabout we stop screwing around and let the customers play the final version of the game they paid for?

[runyan99]

Howzabout we stop screwing around and let the customers play the final version of the game they paid for?

Pasternakski, would you be happiest if AGEOD dropped support for AACW, and stopped patching it completely?

I think you would, but most of us feel differently.

Again, I urge you to play whatever version you choose, and to update, or not update the game, at your own discretion.

[Aurelin]

Pasternakski, would you be happiest if AGEOD dropped support for AACW, and stopped patching it completely?

I think you would, but most of us feel differently.

Again, I urge you to play whatever version you choose, and to update, or not update the game, at your own discretion.

I agree. There is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from playing the game right out of the box.

If one misses Div HQs, by all means, play whatever version has it. If you like 1.05, enjoy it.

No one is sticking any guns to anyone's head to update any game they own.

I like the fact that this company updates their games. Unlike some, like CA, who update their games maybe once, then sell an expansion, them move on. Or the guys who made Cossacks. I don't even want to get into the days updates didn't even exsist. (Games like USAAF, or when they came on a casette tape.)

The same with modding. No one is forcing anyone to use a mod. People, and you know who you are, are putting the time and effort into fleshing the game out. Sure, the game stands on its own, but who says it can't be improved in some ways.

And modding does something else. It extends the hard disk life. Cavedog's TA stayed on my drive for years, thanks to mods. Long past the demise of the company. SW:EAW is back on the HD due to mods.

AGEOD made their games moddable for a reason.

[Rafiki]

I have a feel that we've been down this road before...

If I may put words in pasternakski's mouth (at my own peril, I know), i think his point is that he'd like to see a patch that fixes all outstanding issues and leaves it at that, rather than having things partially fixed in one patch and then tweaked further in the next and so forth. Kinda a call for a "One Patch to Fix Them All!"

I understand the frustration and respect the opinion, though I don't feel it myself. Given the complexity of the game, I think it's unrealistic to reach a point where one can say that this game no longer has any bugs, whatsoever. Instead, it becomes a question of finding the balance between the effort and resources needed to fix given bugs and the benefit from fixing them. I.e. if the game crashes upon startup, it's worth a huge effort to fix it; if a pixel is out of place in one of the British unit icons, the impact of fixing it isn't quite the same.

Luckily for us, AGEOD has a policy and history of going an extra mile (or more ) to fix problems players are having. I'd hate for that to change.

[pasternakski]

Pasternakski, would you be happiest if AGEOD dropped support for AACW, and stopped patching it completely?

Of course not. What I want is stability and the feeling that the game I just started playing is a solid product that may be capable of improvement, but is also worth my investment of time and money in its current form. AACW has disappointed me in this regard.

I think you would, but most of us feel differently.

Thank you for being most of us. I always thought that took more than a majority of one (unless, of course, you are Pervaez Musharraf).

Again, I urge you to play whatever version you choose, and to update, or not update the game, at your own discretion.

If the game is the game I bought, and what I update to is a manufacturer's enhancement to that product, fine. If, however, I am asked to subordinate my desires to your urges, I would prefer that AGEod address what my discretion ought to be, not you.

[pasternakski]

I think it's unrealistic to reach a point where one can say that this game no longer has any bugs, whatsoever.

Never asked for this. Merely requested that order be restored. Used to be a company-run development process. Modders and people who want to run the show have overrun the joint.

Luckily for us, AGEOD has a policy and history of going an extra mile (or more ) to fix problems players are having. I'd hate for that to change.

I want the game to be controlled by the company I bought it from, not by a company of strangers who are just diddling around with it.

Used to be good here. Now, interlopers I don't recognize assert ownership whenever I post comments that may be thought of as critical of their new-found influence with AGEod.

You're losing me, people, and I am a valuable customer.

[GShock]

As Rafiki said, i think we've been down this road before.

I personally think from 1.05 to 1.07f the game has improved and improved a lot.

Everyone is free to give any kind of comment but i think constructive feedback is important while critics for the sake of criticizing is absolutely useless bytes.

I understand Pasternaski's concern on this development schedule with so many patches that makes you feel like the product u bought was incomplete at the time of its launch...it makes you feel like you never know what you're exactly playing as player, as guinea pig and where the game will go.

Questionable, but legit.

I urge you to reconsider the magnitude of this project, Pasternaski.

Economy, Politics, Strategy, Supplies, Morale, History...why do u think Matrix took 8 years (and still counting) to dev World in Flames on PC?

You can stick to the general public's opinion (we're all enthusiast and concur in submitting feedback to help improvements) or to a negativistic, cold and ultimately useless critic but you can't syndicate the DEV choices.

The game is their product and the object of the product is to be sold. Numbers talk better than words and i think they prove so far this policy was the right one to follow.

Would you rather have a game which after 2 patches is over...for examples the EA-Sports series? 2 Patches and then if your game is still bugged all you can do is REBUY the same game coming out next year?

[Guru80]

pasternakski, I have to politely disagree with your opinion. You are completely wrong if you think that any moddable game doesn't take from the community and add to their project....hell, one very famous game was a mod of the original which the the company packaged and sold for full retail price. Any idea what game that was?

As fo the incremental patches, I say keep them coming. We are talking about a small development team who have to make games to make money and they don't have to support past games the way they have and most companies don't. A community of loyal fans who are capable of fixing things shouldn't be a bad thing. Like I said, look in the forums of any moddable game and tell me the same thing doesn't happen (quite often on a larger scale by having the mod sold or included in the actual game).

[pasternakski]

I personally think from 1.05 to 1.07f the game has improved and improved a lot.

Where have I disagreed with this statement?

I did not suggest that AGEod should stop supporting the product. I merely asked for some certitude in what is official and what is not.

My concern is (and I have tried to be consistent and constructive about this) that developer oversight and control have been increasingly lost in an abject and disorganized rush to accommodate the modding community.

Look at it this way. What percentage of the buyers of this game care about (or even know about) unofficial modifications to it? For that matter, the vast majority of AACW buyers have never even downloaded a patch.

I merely ask that the people ultimately responsible for integrity of the game - AGEod - re-assume control over its development for the sake of the casual buyers.

Without those customers, this noble effort will not survive. For every modder, there are hundreds of "I bought it, I wanna play it, and if it don't work, I ain't buying any more from you" consumers.

[pasternakski]

You are completely wrong if you think that any moddable game doesn't take from the community and add to their project....

Modders and those interested in modding make up a desperately thin sliver of the computer wargaming market. The vast majority of buyers would only be confused and irritated if they thought they had to wade through all this crapola to get a decently satisfying amount of fun out of their wargame purchase.

By the way, "respectful disagreement" does not start with assertions that the recipient of your kind condescension is completely full of sh1t.

[Guru80]

Modders and those interested in modding make up a desperately thin sliver of the computer wargaming market. The vast majority of buyers would only be confused and irritated if they thought they had to wade through all this crapola to get a decently satisfying amount of fun out of their wargame purchase.

By the way, "respectful disagreement" does not start with assertions that the recipient of your kind condescension is completely full of sh1t.

You seem to have some sort of problem. If you read into it that I think you are full of sh!t that was definitely not intended so lets just end this right now.

What is wrong with just installing the updates Pocus puts out? By no means do you have to download anything else if you don't choose to. I suppose it is that I think the updates by AGEOD are a good thing. How many games have you bought and pray for a patch to be released to fix an issue that is an actual game breaker and have to wait months for it or it never shows up at all? I think the quick response that AGEOD has devoted to their products when an issue is brought up is a fantastic thing.

[marecone]

You seem to have some sort of problem. If you read into it that I think you are full of sh!t that was definitely not intended so lets just end this right now.

What is wrong with just installing the updates Pocus puts out? By no means do you have to download anything else if you don't choose to. I suppose it is that I think the updates by AGEOD are a good thing. How many games have you bought and pray for a patch to be released to fix an issue that is an actual game breaker and have to wait months for it or it never shows up at all? I think the quick response that AGEOD has devoted to their products when an issue is brought up is a fantastic thing.

I second this.

[GShock]

I did not suggest that AGEod should stop supporting the product. I merely asked for some certitude in what is official and what is not.

Devving 1.07f : released 1.07f quickpatch (RC to beta, to let all of us participate in tests and speed up procedure), 1.07f -> official (error in mirror file upload) 1.07f -> official.

If you follow the boards you'll know they are certifying what is official and what is not.

My concern is (and I have tried to be consistent and constructive about this) that developer oversight and control have been increasingly lost in an abject and disorganized rush to accommodate the modding community.

I expressed this concern too, but in private.
However, the changelog shows the bulk of patching regards AI issues, map issues, engine issues and, only marginally, modding issues.

Look at it this way. What percentage of the buyers of this game care about (or even know about) unofficial modifications to it? For that matter, the vast majority of AACW buyers have never even downloaded a patch.

It is a long-term perspective no dev can ever ignore. Mods increase game longevities...for example, i bought UE3 and almost never played it. Next day i was already using Magna Mundi mod, now i use Terranova Mod. Even though i launch it once every 15 days i don't even know about Vanilla Napoleon's Ambition.

I merely ask that the people ultimately responsible for integrity of the game - AGEod - re-assume control over its development for the sake of the casual buyers.

The people who influence with feedback, submit bugs, work on mods, do this ultimately for the community, casual buyers included. Whatever discovery or fix (for example gray's mapfixes) helps the community. I see that it's a bit chaotic and i agree with you, especially the casual gamer would find it hard at the beginning, but in the long run, even the casual buyer would benefit.

Without those customers, this noble effort will not survive. For every modder, there are hundreds of "I bought it, I wanna play it, and if it don't work, I ain't buying any more from you" consumers.

This is true but don't forget from 1.05 to 1.07f more peeps have bought the game and i think it has improved (and you concur) so if the casual buyer reads the boards, or just sees the link in the forums for the latest patch he will reap the benefits even though he's never even subscribed to the forums

[Rafiki]

[color="Red"]People, let's keep the discussion about the subject at hand and refrain from personal characterizations of the other posters.[/color]

Also, since this has little to do with the 1.07f quick patch, I have taken the liberty of separating the posts related to this discussion into a thread of their own.

[marecone]

You can always decide not to download mods. I love them as they improve game even further.
AGEOD boys did a great job on AI, maps and everything. Moders are just fine tuning this game to be even more historical. If somebody offers me to download a mod with accurate RR of the time or mod that will show me list of battles or ingame generals history I simply can't say no.
I enjoy every new mod that is published here and I hope there will be even more of them.
And to conclude, nobody is asking you to download them. Just ignore them if you don't like it.

[Joseignacio]

Of course not. What I want is stability and the feeling that the game I just started playing is a solid product that may be capable of improvement, but is also worth my investment of time and money in its current form. AACW has disappointed me in this regard.

To this I must heartily applaude. I think AGEOD is running down towards becoming a new Patchesdox (Paradox) which is a pity. I waited for 6 months to buy ACW until I thought it was throughly tested (also with a complete manual) and it seems it's too soon, and what is worst, Pocus (whose work capacity I honestly admire) does what he can but he is too envolved in the new game and the manual not only doesn't grow but is scarcely updated.

With BoA the game was 99% much earlier than ACW in my opinion, so it's going worse quality of product. It means that for the Napoleonic game I will wait one or two years to buy leure: until I really know it has the final patch with no possible doubt. It's a pity because AGEOD is the company who makes the games the way I always wanted them to be, but I cannot stand this quality standards.

[Joseignacio]

I think it's unrealistic to reach a point where one can say that this game no longer has any bugs, whatsoever.

Wow. I cannot believe what I read. It was not like this in the videogames industries in the past and I think it's the only industry (software) that could have this accepted by some of their users.

[Gray_Lensman]

pasternakski:

I am not directly associated with AGEod, but I have well over 750 hours just "diddling around with AACW" in order to find and fix RR and various other linkage errors. As a result, I have not had time to actually play the game since the first of August. For your information, there are well over 10000 links in this game. If you think AGEod was going to methodically check each link, you're seriously mistaken. I'm doing this for my own enjoyment and for those others who want them fixed and if I may say so, I imagine you want them fixed also. I have only recently begun to post what I would call MODs and they're over in the AACW Mods thread. Since I have some small amount of experience working with the linkage system, when I see a post concerning the in-game RR linkage system and that poster needs an explanation for it, I would like to be able to give that poster an answer and a possible fix for it without having someone jump down my throat for it or use my "Fix" answer to justify their own personal vendetta concerning AGEod's update policy.

I intend to continue refining the historical accuracy of the Rail system because I happen to enjoy doing this type of work and others gamers will benefit from the work I am doing as a result.

Regards

[Clovis]

To this I must heartily applaude. I think AGEOD is running down towards becoming a new Patchesdox (Paradox) which is a pity. I waited for 6 months to buy ACW until I thought it was throughly tested (also with a complete manual) and it seems it's too soon, and what is worst, Pocus (whose work capacity I honestly admire) does what he can but he is too envolved in the new game and the manual not only doesn't grow but is scarcely updated.

With BoA the game was 99% much earlier than ACW in my opinion, so it's going worse quality of product. It means that for the Napoleonic game I will wait one or two years to buy leure: until I really know it has the final patch with no possible doubt. It's a pity because AGEOD is the company who makes the games the way I always wanted them to be, but I cannot stand this quality standards.

To put up simply: if patches are upsetting you, uninstall AACW then install it again. Apply no patches and play.

With your method, the solution is even simpler: if no one buys AGEOD games, AGEOD will close its doors. So there will be no new game ....and so no patches.

[marecone]

I can't belive that there are people that don't want this great game to be even better .
Amazing

[Gray_Lensman]

Wow. I cannot believe what I read. It was not like this in the videogames industries in the past and I think it's the only industry (software) that could have this accepted by some of their users.

Joseignacio:

The gaming companies used to be big budget also, and when they occasionally turned out wargames, in the mix with their other releases, they could afford to be much more thorough. Now the wargaming market has shrunk and it is considered a "niche" market, so it is mostly ignored by larger budget companies. Luckily, we still have some fine small companies still trying to fill this "niche" market.

WCS, AGEod, and HPS games just to name a few, are all good examples of small companies trying to fill this niche, but their budget and manpower size just doesn't allow them to linger on their products. Also Matrix, as an online publisher for their games, helps to keep their costs down. If they want to stay in business, they have to move on to the next product, and rely on us to give them the information or do the work to refine their product. I personally enjoy doing this type of work, because I'm a history buff as are most of the others posting in this forum.

Fortunately, there are lots of "modders" who help tweak the games regardless of the "Flak", because of their desire for the games to be completed, otherwise, in a lot of cases, they would not be completed at all.

Regards

[Rafiki]

Wow. I cannot believe what I read. It was not like this in the videogames industries in the past and I think it's the only industry (software) that could have this accepted by some of their users.

You need to see this in connection with the rest of my post. I do think it is realistic to expect this game at one point no longer has any bugs that impact the enjoyment of the game (I'll even say that we might have reached that point already). You also need to see this in relation to how games have had their complexity increased exponentially since the early days of computer gaming. EDIT: and of course, what Gray is saying about available resources for these kinds of development projects

Let there be no doubt, as a customer I do not accept poor quality in games, something I show by which games I buy and not, something which is the prerogative of any customer in any business. What sets AGEOD apart in my eyes, is that they have on all occasions displayed a willingness and ability to ensure the enjoyment the customers get from their games, as shown in the quality of their designs, in their work to stamp out bugs and in the services they provide in relation to their games. Can they be better? Surely. Could they have been worse? Definitely!

(Yes, I know that section reeks of fanboyism, but that's how I see it )

It also becomes a question of how one defines an issue. One man's "bug" is another man's "design choice" which in turn might be a third person's "interpretation of historical data".

[marecone]

Joseignacio:

The gaming companies used to be big budget also, and when they occasionally turned out wargames, in the mix with their other releases, they could afford to be much more thorough. Now the wargaming market has shrunk and it is considered a "niche" market, so it is mostly ignored by larger budget companies. Luckily, we still have some fine small companies still trying to fill this "niche" market.

WCS, AGEod, and HPS games just to name a few, are all good examples of small companies trying to fill this niche, but their budget and manpower size just doesn't allow them to linger on their products. Also Matrix, as an online publisher for their games, helps to keep their costs down. If they want to stay in business, they have to move on to the next product, and rely on us to give them the information or do the work to refine their product. I personally enjoy doing this type of work, because I'm a history buff as are most of the others posting in this forum.

Fortunately, there are lots of "modders" who help tweak the games regardless of the "Flak", because of their desire for the games to be completed. Otherwise, in a lot of cases, they would not be completed at all.

Regards

Very well said. Real wargamers are asking for more and more detailes and especially historical accuracy like correct OOB's and RR links. This is where moders come in. And I thank them once more on that.

Godspeed

[Rafiki]

Very well said. Real wargamers are asking for more and more detailes and especially historical accuracy like correct OOB's and RR links. This is where moders come in. And I thank them once more on that.

Indeed. I too have nothing but respect and admiration for the work done by the modders around here, who on more than one occasion (more like more than fifty occasions) have helped make this game even better than it has been.

[AndrewKurtz]

Thank you for being most of us. I always thought that took more than a majority of one (unless, of course, you are Pervaez Musharraf).

Make it two

[Pocus]

For the peace of mind of some, Pasternakski first, I can assure you that the next patch will contains only: bug fixes, AI improvements and the scenarios re-exported to be sure they are all up to date. No mods integrated, nada

Also Jose Ignacio: Don't forget that games were simpler in the past. You can't really compare the database and details level of No Greater Glory with AACW, this would not be fair.

[AndrewKurtz]

pasternakski:

I am not directly associated with AGEod, but I have well over 750 hours just "diddling around with AACW" in order to find and fix RR and various other linkage errors. As a result, I have not had time to actually play the game since the first of August. For your information, there are well over 10000 links in this game. If you think AGEod was going to methodically check each link, you're seriously mistaken. I'm doing this for my own enjoyment and for those others who want them fixed and if I may say so, I imagine you want them fixed also. I have only recently begun to post what I would call MODs and they're over in the AACW Mods thread. Since I have some small amount of experience working with the linkage system, when I see a post concerning the in-game RR linkage system and that poster needs an explanation for it, I would like to be able to give that poster an answer and a possible fix for it without having someone jump down my throat for it or use my "Fix" answer to justify their own personal vendetta concerning AGEod's update policy.

I intend to continue refining the historical accuracy of the Rail system because I happen to enjoy doing this type of work and others gamers will benefit from the work I am doing as a result.

Regards

And from most of us, although maybe not a majority , many many thanks.

[Ian Coote]

I would just like to say I love reading history books and playing historical wargames and really appreciate all the time and effort you modders put into making great games even better.Thankyou.

[Paul Roberts]

For the peace of mind of some, Pasternakski first, I can assure you that the next patch will contains only: bug fixes, AI improvements and the scenarios re-exported to be sure they are all up to date. No mods integrated, nada

...

Thanks, Pocus!

Any chance we'll see this patch for the weekend?

[Reiryc]

Well, that certainly clarifies things.



Do you think we could ever get to a point where the current version of the game is controlled by the company that published it and the modders are rodding around in their own separate threads? I thought this was stated to be how things were going to be at one point, but here we are again with the "miasma" effect.

I stopped playing this game a couple of months ago while waiting for a definitive, solid patch to be published that would correct what was wrong, add what was needed, and have some longevity so that I could play a campaign game all the way through without having to start over or modify my style of play due to changes that inexorably come with bug fixes (and fixes of bugs introduced by interim patches). I'm still waiting (and for BoA Gold, btw, another game I would like to get back to enjoying if AGEod would finish the thing).

Howzabout we stop screwing around and let the customers play the final version of the game they paid for?

I'm curious who or what is forcing you to patch the game at all?

Just pick a patch, tell yourself it's the last one and enjoy yourself. No need then to, "start over or modify your style of play due to changes that inexorably come with bug fixes."