God bless all your pointed little heads for loving this game and wanting to improve it, but someone needs to step up and regain control of the process before it disintegrates further into chaos.
We've got Willy over here fixin' the Navy, and Wally over there workin' on the cavalry, while Wilbur wrangles with the weather and Wilbury travels with the leader pics, and ... and ... and ...
Now, the infernal informal fixers are posting infernal informal fixes for their original fixin's that I didn't even know existed until somebody fixed 'em.
What is the "official" version of this game as it currently stands? What will be officially sanctioned by the publisher, and what will remain merely a "mod?"
As a customer, I am looking for some definition of the product I bought, so that I may have some chance of understanding and using - and maybe enjoying - it. When you brought your "Ajax Sophistemicated Dowacky" home from the store, you wanted to plug it in and use it, right?
Shoot, I can't even tell any more what voltage this one is supposed to use (did I mention that I miss division HQ units?).
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pasternakski
- Colonel
- Posts: 341
- Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:50 pm
There are a lot of things that need to be fixed or improved, some of which you mentioned, including the weather, the leader pics, the railroads, etc.
Pocus doesn't really have the time or the inclination to address all of these 'details'. The modding community does have the time and the inclination.
When the modding community creates an improvement that Pocus feels is an improvement to the game, he can incorporate it and make it 'official'. Of course, he does not have to do this. It is his call.
I know older people are resistant to change. As such, I recommend you save a copy of the 1.04b patch file, with the original division HQs that you prefer, and you can play that with no changes for all time. If you need a copy of the 1.04 patch, I can email it to you.
Pocus doesn't really have the time or the inclination to address all of these 'details'. The modding community does have the time and the inclination.
When the modding community creates an improvement that Pocus feels is an improvement to the game, he can incorporate it and make it 'official'. Of course, he does not have to do this. It is his call.
I know older people are resistant to change. As such, I recommend you save a copy of the 1.04b patch file, with the original division HQs that you prefer, and you can play that with no changes for all time. If you need a copy of the 1.04 patch, I can email it to you.
pasternakski wrote:God bless all your pointed little heads for loving this game and wanting to improve it, but someone needs to step up and regain control of the process before it disintegrates further into chaos.
We've got Willy over here fixin' the Navy, and Wally over there workin' on the cavalry, while Wilbur wrangles with the weather and Wilbury travels with the leader pics, and ... and ... and ...
Now, the infernal informal fixers are posting infernal informal fixes for their original fixin's that I didn't even know existed until somebody fixed 'em.
What is the "official" version of this game as it currently stands? What will be officially sanctioned by the publisher, and what will remain merely a "mod?"
As a customer, I am looking for some definition of the product I bought, so that I may have some chance of understanding and using - and maybe enjoying - it. When you brought your "Ajax Sophistemicated Dowacky" home from the store, you wanted to plug it in and use it, right?
Shoot, I can't even tell any more what voltage this one is supposed to use (did I mention that I miss division HQ units?).
Step 1 - Install the game
Step 2 - Click on the stickied link entitled "Patch 1.07"
Step 3 - Download and install said patch
The End
Everything else is a mod and is located, not coincidentally, on the mod board. Remarkably straightforward.
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pasternakski
- Colonel
- Posts: 341
- Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:50 pm
runyan99 wrote:I know older people are resistant to change.
Thank you, Runyan, offense duly taken.
As such, I recommend you save a copy of the 1.04b patch file, with the original division HQs that you prefer, and you can play that with no changes for all time. If you need a copy of the 1.04 patch, I can email it to you.
No, no, we derelicts don't need that kind of condescension, sonny, just send me a good dose of something to croak me off without pain and I'll be happy.
the point is (sorry to have to spell it out so particularly for you younger folk) that this game started to suffer when the designers started to depart from its original configuration and made wholesale changes in the mechanics - to my mind, old and decrepit though it may be, dating from the decision to jettison the original command dynamics.
Look what you have now - uncertainty, haphazard "mod" re-design on the basis of poorly thought through personal preferences, various versions of the game that may or may not provide a basis for "improvement" or even a platform for intelligent discussion of what constitutes improvement.
This game, at the hands of the jackals who seem intent on tearing it to shreds to satisfy some odd "I want it my way and I want it now with my name on it" imperative, is rapidly losing my interest.
Oh. I have been authorized to say that this goes unanimously for the other twelve members of my wargaming club who have patiently tried to go along with the changes to this game in hope that they will culminate in bringing it to satisfying maturity, not frustrating failure.
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pasternakski
- Colonel
- Posts: 341
- Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:50 pm
LSSpam wrote:Step 1 - Install the game
Step 2 - Click on the stickied link entitled "Patch 1.07"
Step 3 - Download and install said patch
The End
Everything else is a mod and is located, not coincidentally, on the mod board. Remarkably straightforward.
Real funny. Note the posts from modders that correct matter already incorporated by the designer into a patch, and it gets to be almost hilarious.l
They are working on data Pasternakski, not on code. The code change you disagree on, divisions HQ, were our, will of the team, Philippe Thibaut and I.
Now lets take a look at the data modified, please:
1. Weather patterns. One can say that the original were unfit, with snow in summer in the south and such. Can I call this 'data bug'. What to do with them? Wait for us to find some time (around 3 AM perhaps one night) to fix that, or integrate the work of someone who took the time checking historical weathers patterns and discussing the matter in length with a score of others players?
2. Missing links on the map. No discussion there, either the link is missing or it is not. I checked 1 on 3 of all the 266 changes of Gray_Lensman and each time he was right. I'm not paranoid enough to think the others 2/3 were faulty and did not need addressing.
3. Leaders portraits. Either they are missing or they are not. Why were they missing first time? Because we did not have the budget and Sandra was already overbooked.
4. Regions retouching from PBBoeye. These alter slightly some regions bitmaps, like coasts not correctly cut by the map editor and such. I see no malice in that.
5. Some tweak in the artilleries data. Approved by Philippe Thibaut and I after some discussion, we find the values more historical. I further altered the war supply cost of USA to + 35/+50% depending of the type, so to be plainly satisfied with the data changes. With some time, a book or two on artillery, search on the net, we could have done that. The values for us make perfect sense. But we did not have the time.
The rest is not official. Some want to reduce the Army HQ command range. Some want to prevent drafting before a certain year. Some want an easier foreign entry. etc. This will never be official, because this is not what we want for the game.
Please allow us to decide what we want or not. We want better data (as in 'more historical'). We want improved rules and interfaces. This will stay our vision, rest assured. But it does not means no changes should be accepted by third party, just because they are third parties. Would it makes sense? I don't think so.
I hope you will try our Napoleonic game though. But knows that chances are that some data will be tweaked with the help of modders, as patches appears
Now lets take a look at the data modified, please:
1. Weather patterns. One can say that the original were unfit, with snow in summer in the south and such. Can I call this 'data bug'. What to do with them? Wait for us to find some time (around 3 AM perhaps one night) to fix that, or integrate the work of someone who took the time checking historical weathers patterns and discussing the matter in length with a score of others players?
2. Missing links on the map. No discussion there, either the link is missing or it is not. I checked 1 on 3 of all the 266 changes of Gray_Lensman and each time he was right. I'm not paranoid enough to think the others 2/3 were faulty and did not need addressing.
3. Leaders portraits. Either they are missing or they are not. Why were they missing first time? Because we did not have the budget and Sandra was already overbooked.
4. Regions retouching from PBBoeye. These alter slightly some regions bitmaps, like coasts not correctly cut by the map editor and such. I see no malice in that.
5. Some tweak in the artilleries data. Approved by Philippe Thibaut and I after some discussion, we find the values more historical. I further altered the war supply cost of USA to + 35/+50% depending of the type, so to be plainly satisfied with the data changes. With some time, a book or two on artillery, search on the net, we could have done that. The values for us make perfect sense. But we did not have the time.
The rest is not official. Some want to reduce the Army HQ command range. Some want to prevent drafting before a certain year. Some want an easier foreign entry. etc. This will never be official, because this is not what we want for the game.
Please allow us to decide what we want or not. We want better data (as in 'more historical'). We want improved rules and interfaces. This will stay our vision, rest assured. But it does not means no changes should be accepted by third party, just because they are third parties. Would it makes sense? I don't think so.
I hope you will try our Napoleonic game though. But knows that chances are that some data will be tweaked with the help of modders, as patches appears
Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."
If you allow me to discuss further, I think you get our philosophy wrong there. It is as if you think we see a new mod, and tell ourselves: "hey new stuff to try, lets integrate that and see what happen, this should be fun!".
No. This goes this way:
"Damn, we have problems with weather patterns, who can fix that!"
PhilThib: "Err, not me, I'm checking models 2856 for NCP, I wonder if the Hessian cavalry sub-version 3 should have 8 or 7 in assault"
Pocus: "Not me either, I'm trying to have the Guard commit intelligently during battle"
So we check with volunteers, and so you get a mod gone official.
No. This goes this way:
"Damn, we have problems with weather patterns, who can fix that!"
PhilThib: "Err, not me, I'm checking models 2856 for NCP, I wonder if the Hessian cavalry sub-version 3 should have 8 or 7 in assault"
Pocus: "Not me either, I'm trying to have the Guard commit intelligently during battle"
So we check with volunteers, and so you get a mod gone official.
Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."
pasternakski,
any deity You may or may not believe in bless You, but You do eerily remind me of myself just one favourite developer ago...
Proudly proclaiming myself an old man restistant to change ever since they took away our crayons and forced us to use ink pens in elementary school (which turned out not to be such a bad thing at all, since now we could poke each others eye out AND give each other blood poisioning at the same time, two birds with but one stone and all that), let me assure You, there is no condescension in the below (apart from the inherent [size=84]condescension that always comes for free when being lectured by a German. From early protestantism to late communism and nationalsocialism, whenever You bother to look behind one of any of the most meddlesome -isms ever invented, You'll find a wildeyed german with a threateningly erected index finger truly believing he has found THE ultimate formula that'll make the world a better place if just everybody else would get in line. But I disgress...).[/size]
[size=84]Well, I used to be very adverse to modding in all my favourite games for the very reason You unusually politely only hinted at: because I felt the vast majority of modders were nothing but half-informed semi-educated busybodies with a broad streak of egomania. Hell, it even came to a point where I thought the developers themselves were nothing but half-informed semi-educated busybodies with a broad streak of egomania when they began to patch things that, to me, were not broken at all, just to appeal to the unrefined tastes of the unwashed masses. (I got over this feeling somewhat and continued to patch their games along, because when You are the only one using the third patch before last, multiplayer games tend to be somewhat lonesome affairs, if for no other reason. But it sadly turned out that I was right about the egomania thingy.) [/size]
[size=84]However, with the esteemed community and the fine people working on games for a living here, I do not have this feeling at all. Every single one of them, to me, is extremely well informed on his particular area on expertise, as well as dedicated, which latter never ceases to amaze and awe me, I don't know any other company or game that managed to inspire such a knowledgeable and dedicated following and keep it for such a long amount of time. And even where I don't follow their arguements or solutions on any single issue, I still feel inclined to tip my hat to them for the above reasons. (So far for the praise.)[/size]
[size=84]Sure, some of Your complaints are valid: Everybody has his own "vision" of what the game should really be like (and everybody capable of doing so is modding it to fit his personal ideals), but so Do YOU and ME, too. You want Your Div HQs back, I would want a less efficient spread of supplies, harsher railroad repair and conversion rules (preferably with new USMRR units) and a more balanced bombardment system (possibly with new "river battery" units that block river movement more effectively). If I was not such a lousy modder, You might rightfully bitch about "Henrys goddam turn-the-whole-supply-and-railroad-system-upside-down-and-botch-naval-warfare-for-free-too" mod, by now, too. Everybody works on his own pet peeves first, and things tend to become somewhat confusing for us god ole end users, especially if You're into PBEM with multiple people at the same time who all have taken there own choices of mods.[/size]
[size=84]However, that is were, luckily for us, the developers themselves step in. I have never seen any game developer keeping such a close eye on the modding community of their game before, anywhere. They not only watch and observe the various efforts, but also decide which ones they deem to be developing along the lines of their own vision of THEIR game and include them in a patch, thus making them official and to a great extend countermand the devisive tendencies of "wild modding". They deliver an improved "unified" game that's appealing to the majority of the community with every new patch. Surely their decisions won't and can't please everybody always, but then again, it is THEIR game we are talking about, not ours, and therefore THEIR vision of it that counts. I'd say, instead of incessently grumbling about the few things we don't like and they are still not inclined to change the way WE want for reasons we can't fathom, we'd rather be somewhat grateful that they still go through the hassle to improve their work to everybodies benefit but their own (let's not forget, every minute spent on making a new patch is a minute "wasted" on something they won't make a single buck of in the short run) instead of just tossing out a game, patch the most gruesome bugs and then abandon it to concentrate on making the next game or "Add On", adopting the endearing "love it or leave it!" attitude some certain other publishers have developed over time...[/size]
[size=84]On Preview: Wow, another way to long and incoherent fanboi-sermon, and not at all helpful to the topic, I blame the antibiotics. There is a small and somewhat obscure school of thought among the most wildeyed priapic index fingered german historians that even Hitler would have been a much nicer person if he just hadn't been addicted to antibiotic anti-flatulence pills ever since he was fed beans four weeks straight when attending a military hospital in Pasewalk in 1918, but I disgress again...
Regards, Henry
P.S.: If You are mostly playing singleplayer, runyan99's advice about going back to 1.04 has value, given being talking down on You or not...[/size]
any deity You may or may not believe in bless You, but You do eerily remind me of myself just one favourite developer ago...
Proudly proclaiming myself an old man restistant to change ever since they took away our crayons and forced us to use ink pens in elementary school (which turned out not to be such a bad thing at all, since now we could poke each others eye out AND give each other blood poisioning at the same time, two birds with but one stone and all that), let me assure You, there is no condescension in the below (apart from the inherent [size=84]condescension that always comes for free when being lectured by a German. From early protestantism to late communism and nationalsocialism, whenever You bother to look behind one of any of the most meddlesome -isms ever invented, You'll find a wildeyed german with a threateningly erected index finger truly believing he has found THE ultimate formula that'll make the world a better place if just everybody else would get in line. But I disgress...).[/size][size=84]Well, I used to be very adverse to modding in all my favourite games for the very reason You unusually politely only hinted at: because I felt the vast majority of modders were nothing but half-informed semi-educated busybodies with a broad streak of egomania. Hell, it even came to a point where I thought the developers themselves were nothing but half-informed semi-educated busybodies with a broad streak of egomania when they began to patch things that, to me, were not broken at all, just to appeal to the unrefined tastes of the unwashed masses. (I got over this feeling somewhat and continued to patch their games along, because when You are the only one using the third patch before last, multiplayer games tend to be somewhat lonesome affairs, if for no other reason. But it sadly turned out that I was right about the egomania thingy.) [/size]
[size=84]However, with the esteemed community and the fine people working on games for a living here, I do not have this feeling at all. Every single one of them, to me, is extremely well informed on his particular area on expertise, as well as dedicated, which latter never ceases to amaze and awe me, I don't know any other company or game that managed to inspire such a knowledgeable and dedicated following and keep it for such a long amount of time. And even where I don't follow their arguements or solutions on any single issue, I still feel inclined to tip my hat to them for the above reasons. (So far for the praise.)[/size]
[size=84]Sure, some of Your complaints are valid: Everybody has his own "vision" of what the game should really be like (and everybody capable of doing so is modding it to fit his personal ideals), but so Do YOU and ME, too. You want Your Div HQs back, I would want a less efficient spread of supplies, harsher railroad repair and conversion rules (preferably with new USMRR units) and a more balanced bombardment system (possibly with new "river battery" units that block river movement more effectively). If I was not such a lousy modder, You might rightfully bitch about "Henrys goddam turn-the-whole-supply-and-railroad-system-upside-down-and-botch-naval-warfare-for-free-too" mod, by now, too. Everybody works on his own pet peeves first, and things tend to become somewhat confusing for us god ole end users, especially if You're into PBEM with multiple people at the same time who all have taken there own choices of mods.[/size]
[size=84]However, that is were, luckily for us, the developers themselves step in. I have never seen any game developer keeping such a close eye on the modding community of their game before, anywhere. They not only watch and observe the various efforts, but also decide which ones they deem to be developing along the lines of their own vision of THEIR game and include them in a patch, thus making them official and to a great extend countermand the devisive tendencies of "wild modding". They deliver an improved "unified" game that's appealing to the majority of the community with every new patch. Surely their decisions won't and can't please everybody always, but then again, it is THEIR game we are talking about, not ours, and therefore THEIR vision of it that counts. I'd say, instead of incessently grumbling about the few things we don't like and they are still not inclined to change the way WE want for reasons we can't fathom, we'd rather be somewhat grateful that they still go through the hassle to improve their work to everybodies benefit but their own (let's not forget, every minute spent on making a new patch is a minute "wasted" on something they won't make a single buck of in the short run) instead of just tossing out a game, patch the most gruesome bugs and then abandon it to concentrate on making the next game or "Add On", adopting the endearing "love it or leave it!" attitude some certain other publishers have developed over time...[/size]
[size=84]On Preview: Wow, another way to long and incoherent fanboi-sermon, and not at all helpful to the topic, I blame the antibiotics. There is a small and somewhat obscure school of thought among the most wildeyed priapic index fingered german historians that even Hitler would have been a much nicer person if he just hadn't been addicted to antibiotic anti-flatulence pills ever since he was fed beans four weeks straight when attending a military hospital in Pasewalk in 1918, but I disgress again...
Regards, Henry
P.S.: If You are mostly playing singleplayer, runyan99's advice about going back to 1.04 has value, given being talking down on You or not...[/size]
Henry D, also known as "Stauffenberg" @ Strategycon Interactive and formerly (un)known as "whatasillyname" @ Paradox Forums
"Rackers, wollt Ihr ewig leben?" (Rascals, Do You want to live forever?) - Frederick the Great, cursing at his fleeing Grenadiers at the battle of Kunersdorf
"Nee, Fritze, aber für fuffzehn Pfennije is' heute jenuch!" (No, Freddy, but for 15p let's call it a day!) - Retort of one passing Grenadier to the above
"Rackers, wollt Ihr ewig leben?" (Rascals, Do You want to live forever?) - Frederick the Great, cursing at his fleeing Grenadiers at the battle of Kunersdorf
"Nee, Fritze, aber für fuffzehn Pfennije is' heute jenuch!" (No, Freddy, but for 15p let's call it a day!) - Retort of one passing Grenadier to the above
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AndrewKurtz
- Posts: 1167
- Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:49 am
- Location: Greenville, SC
AndrewKurtz wrote:It really is simple isn't it? Just install the offiial patches. Ignore everything else.
What am I missing?
With the danger of putting words into pasternakski's mouth, I think he is worried that some people here might be hassling Pocus into including stuff in the patches that shouldn't be there (that's how I interpret what he says; any faults in that interpretation are mine)
I am not worried at all about it, because:
- Pocus and PhilThib have shown quite a few times that they have a level-minded approach to it (e.g. requiring mature mods, community consensus, being in line with the design ideas behind the game etc)
- As Henry says, the people involved in the modding are highly knowledgeable.
- Both AGEod and the modders are more than willing to discuss the ways they have done things, and (this is the most important part) don't seem to mind being told they have done something sub-optimal, as long as the telling is done in a constructive way and for the betterment of the game.
That a few things slip through (like the Erie canal getting blocked) is inconvenient, but as long as AGEod are the company they are ((very) few people, no people dedicated to in-house testing), this is something we shall have to live with for the time being, I think. As long as they fix any such glitches in an efficient manner, I won't hold it against them, rather the opposite actually, since it proves the focus they have on customer support
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richfed
- Posts: 902
- Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:50 pm
- Location: Marion, North Carolina, USA
- Contact: Website
AndrewKurtz wrote:It really is simple isn't it? Just install the offiial patches. Ignore everything else.
What am I missing?
That is what i do.
pasternakski, I feel your pain, but I think Pocus answered your concerns -and mine, at times - perfectly.
BTW, 1.07 plays just fine - flavor is more or less the same as previously; lots of good fixes and enhancements.
[color="DarkRed"][SIZE="2"][font="Book Antiqua"]"We've caught them napping!"[/font][/size][/color]
Well, I'll have to agree with Pasternakski...because I haven't been able to play as much as I wanted. So the number of changes made atleast seems to be awe inspiring.
I believe that Pasternakski's opinion is that the rules that we had to learn at first (has everybody already forgotten what a hassle it was to learn the new command system?) have now flown out of the window.
The same thing has happened with BOA with the new supply rules.
I've learned to play the game but now I have to "unlearn" as new patches and modifications come by (which isn't a bad thing IMO).
But I do believe what Pocus wrote and I'm fine with it.
So...you guys think that the new 1.07 is kosher?
I believe that Pasternakski's opinion is that the rules that we had to learn at first (has everybody already forgotten what a hassle it was to learn the new command system?) have now flown out of the window.
The same thing has happened with BOA with the new supply rules.
I've learned to play the game but now I have to "unlearn" as new patches and modifications come by (which isn't a bad thing IMO).
But I do believe what Pocus wrote and I'm fine with it.
So...you guys think that the new 1.07 is kosher?
The things modder needs always to be aware of as well is if the AI will be able to cope with their mods or not.
I have seen a couple of mods intended for changing the Chain of commands and bonuses for example. Not knowing how the AI is designed, it would be very hard to understand if the AI can take sounds decision once the mod is applied or not.
Weather changes is one thing (The AI is supposed to take the weather into account, and whatever the weather pattern, it's as random for it), C3 changes is another, I think.
Cat
I have seen a couple of mods intended for changing the Chain of commands and bonuses for example. Not knowing how the AI is designed, it would be very hard to understand if the AI can take sounds decision once the mod is applied or not.
Weather changes is one thing (The AI is supposed to take the weather into account, and whatever the weather pattern, it's as random for it), C3 changes is another, I think.
Cat
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Flashman007
- Corporal
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 4:54 pm
I also see where the old fellow is comming from (wait, I am over 50 so I am allowed to say that). If one follows the boards it would appear that there is a temendous amount of disarray but in fact it is just a work in progress. Do you want a static or living product? I am sometimes discouraged in what would appear to be careless mistakes on Pocus' part when patching but we are all human and given his willingness to quickly fix things I am not going give him a knock for that.
Like others I wait a few days after the official patch and then go with it. Bottom line is that I also think this is a better product than when if first came out. I, for one, will continue to be a paying customer.
My advice is to stop reading the boards and just go with the official patches.
Now where is that web-based PBEM module?
Like others I wait a few days after the official patch and then go with it. Bottom line is that I also think this is a better product than when if first came out. I, for one, will continue to be a paying customer.
My advice is to stop reading the boards and just go with the official patches.
Now where is that web-based PBEM module?
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gekkoguy82
- Major
- Posts: 205
- Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:58 pm
- Location: Nashville, TN
It would be nice if the modding was managed. By that, a process of community approval.
A mod is put out for approval, managed by a central person and thread.
It gets votes by X date.
If it gets incorporated by Pocus, then it is official.
The rest or the 'meantimes' are rated, by a community voting process, and then agreed upon as to used or not used by those seeking opposition.
Maybe I have ignored it or been plain old blind, but has someone put together a mod swapper for the game?
A mod is put out for approval, managed by a central person and thread.
It gets votes by X date.
If it gets incorporated by Pocus, then it is official.
The rest or the 'meantimes' are rated, by a community voting process, and then agreed upon as to used or not used by those seeking opposition.
Maybe I have ignored it or been plain old blind, but has someone put together a mod swapper for the game?
Wilhammer wrote:It would be nice if the modding was managed. By that, a process of community approval.
It already is.
Mods are incorporated strictly on the basis of developers perogative. That's how it should be. Either Pocus decides this mod is useful and does some of his grunt work for him, or he doesn't like where the mod takes the game. In this way the "original vision" of the game is roughly perserved, whatever people may insinuate, because Pocus is the final/sole authority on what makes it in. I.E. the stuff that makes it in is stuff Pocus agrees needed to be fixed and might have been fixed if he had time.
The rest of the mods are well discussed, often take ideas from the rest of the community, and are generally well-recieved or poorly-recieved based on their merits.
As modder I feel my work to be both essential and optional.
Essential for me because it's the way I want to play AACW. For many reasons, I feel AACW not being right for 1861 and I decided to fix that mainly because I couldn't have played the vanilla version woth sufficient pleasure.
Optional because I don't think changes I've made to be consensual. I upload them because some players may like this version, some modders could want to use them as I used some ideas or other mods. But it remains optional and I wouldn't see these changes to be implemented in the official files simply because I know many players will keep some features like draft from the start.
Essential for me because it's the way I want to play AACW. For many reasons, I feel AACW not being right for 1861 and I decided to fix that mainly because I couldn't have played the vanilla version woth sufficient pleasure.
Optional because I don't think changes I've made to be consensual. I upload them because some players may like this version, some modders could want to use them as I used some ideas or other mods. But it remains optional and I wouldn't see these changes to be implemented in the official files simply because I know many players will keep some features like draft from the start.
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Primasprit
- Posts: 1614
- Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:44 pm
- Location: Germany
Wilhammer wrote:[...]Maybe I have ignored it or been plain old blind, but has someone put together a mod swapper for the game?
I think someone recommended the 'JoneSoft Generic Mod Enabler' as a good tool to exchange mods. (http://www.users.on.net/~jscones/software/products.html)
A few weeks back I could relate to pasternakski's conception of the free-for-all and seemingly haphazard philosophy of the development of AACW. There has been more than a few errors and false starts that were starting to make me believe that AACW was a perpetual beta-WIP.
But I began to realize that the only difference here is that AGEOD has effectively allowed an otherwise 'private' development forum to be available to public scrutiny. The result being the ability to aquire constructive input from the community-at-large, instead of a few hand picked individuals. This method can only succeed if management stays cool and sticks to their vision without getting derailed by public sentiment.
As a member of a private development team for Panther games, I tip my hat to AEGOD for their bravery, patience, and vision in successfully doing this.
But I began to realize that the only difference here is that AGEOD has effectively allowed an otherwise 'private' development forum to be available to public scrutiny. The result being the ability to aquire constructive input from the community-at-large, instead of a few hand picked individuals. This method can only succeed if management stays cool and sticks to their vision without getting derailed by public sentiment.
As a member of a private development team for Panther games, I tip my hat to AEGOD for their bravery, patience, and vision in successfully doing this.
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epaminondas
- Colonel
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- Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:35 pm
LSSpam wrote:Ohhhh. I get it. You don't want it their way. You want it your way.
I don't think that really does justice to the complaint, LS. I figure he wants it as close to the original as possible - because that's what he bought into. I share the sentiment to some degree.
If you come from a boardgaming background you tend to be lumbered with the notion that 'rules is rules' and you play them as you find them. Sure you accept (and expect) addenda to remedy errors in the map or countermix and to address oversights in the sequence of play, but you don't anticipate having the game reconfigured in ways that change substantial elements of its design. Especially if the reconfigurations are in some sense 'arbitrary'.
Case in point: while most of the revisions included in 1.07 are fixes, the artillery mod is not. It's a reworking of a basic game mechanic. Now, personally, I was very pleased to see the initial incarnation of that mod roll out. I thought it added additional realism (and chrome) without changing gameplay at all. But the final version included a reduction of the size of CSA batteries along with manpower adjustments to compensate for this. That does make a difference to the way you need to play the game.
I understand of course that there is an historical basis for that particular change, largely the fact that Bobby Lee didn't have the same affinity for the guns that his northern counterparts did. But that's a doctrinal consideration and Bobby Lee is not running this show - I am. More to the point, if that particular doctrinal result now gets to be reflected in the game, then what about the point raised some time back by Macnaughton regarding the initial resistance to divisional organisation within the PAC. And if that gets in then why not a barrier to the production of USA cavalry early in the war because it wasn't initially fielded in regimental strength. And so on and so on.
I think that's Pasternaksi's point. While there has to be room for bug fixes and linear improvements, these should perhaps be more clearly separated from the mods. That way those attracted to the game as originally conceived can get to play an increasingly refined version of that, while those who want to take advantage of the inventiveness of the talented modders who so unselfishly share their work with the rest of us can do that too.
epaminondas wrote:If you come from a boardgaming background you tend to be lumbered with the notion that 'rules is rules' and you play them as you find them. Sure you accept (and expect) addenda to remedy errors in the map or countermix and to address oversights in the sequence of play, but you don't anticipate having the game reconfigured in ways that change substantial elements of its design. Especially if the reconfigurations are in some sense 'arbitrary'.
As someone who comes from a very strong boardgaming background (and found this game because he was looking for a computer game facsimile of the Victory Games The Civil War) I can tell you that's not entirely true.
Most of my boardgame experiences involved a myriad of house rules and home-made counters. In fact, one of the things I missed most about boardgames when I transitioned to computer games was the "sandbox" quality. I vividly remember expanding the general pool with homemade counters for The Civil War for instance or adding more Italian armor for Third Reich.
Now, finally, with the work by Paradox and it now appears AGEOD, suddenly that's returning. It's a good thing.
LSSpam wrote:Most of my boardgame experiences involved a myriad of house rules and home-made counters. In fact, one of the things I missed most about boardgames when I transitioned to computer games was the "sandbox" quality. I vividly remember expanding the general pool with homemade counters for The Civil War for instance or adding more Italian armor for Third Reich.
I think you may have just given several people a heart attack...or at the very least, sent a few people to the hospital....
Personally, I get tired of games very quickly if I can't do something with them....either mod or create scenarios or something beyond just playing them.
Jagger wrote:Personally, I get tired of games very quickly if I can't do something with them....either mod or create scenarios or something beyond just playing them.
You know the board game companies did a lot of that stuff anyways, they just weren't instant and free. You had "Advanced Third Reich" and a variety of optional "Fantasy" and "Realism" options to make the game more interesting. Some of the games were intentionally sandbox (like Panzer Blitz/Leader) and you could order extra counter sets and make your own scenarios.
Wilhammer wrote:It would be nice if the modding was managed. By that, a process of community approval.
A mod is put out for approval, managed by a central person and thread.
It gets votes by X date.
If it gets incorporated by Pocus, then it is official.
The rest or the 'meantimes' are rated, by a community voting process, and then agreed upon as to used or not used by those seeking opposition.
Maybe I have ignored it or been plain old blind, but has someone put together a mod swapper for the game?
Please tell me you don't want a democratic process to make mods officially part of the game. I get along with people on this board, but I honestly don't know most of you from a box of rusty nails. I definitely don't want everyone else here telling me what mods I will be using. Right now, it's in two pairs of hands, and those are hands I generally trust. Modding should be optional, and a personal decision.
Ardie wrote:The same thing has happened with BOA with the new supply rules.
Yes ... my only grip with BOA (wonderful innovative game btw). The game was getting better and better with each release and now that it is sort of 'finished', I've played it enough and has no more desire to play solo or PBEM. Sort of sad ...
I'm taking it much more slowly with AACW (only playing my second campaign at the moment)
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