User avatar
Stauffenberg
General
Posts: 548
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Montreal
Contact: Website

Cavalry Corps!

Wed May 23, 2012 1:06 pm

I'd like to hear from the grognard cognoscenti about these beasts:

--What specific benefits do you obtain from having a 2 or 3-division CC in close range to other army infantry corps, as opposed to simply having a cavalry division in each corps where possible?

--What defensive and offensive setting are most appropriate for a CC?

I'd also like to hear about any specific situations where a CC was involved in battles.

User avatar
Captain_Orso
Posts: 5766
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:02 pm
Location: Stuttgart, Germany

Wed May 23, 2012 3:16 pm

I think that when it comes to cavalry that the terminology gets confused with the infantry terminology. In reading Foote's The Civil War yesterday he's writing about Hood's Nashville campaign and speaking of Forests cavalry corp containing 3 division. But the total number of troopers is 6000, therefore 2000 per division. Compared to infantry 2000 is a very small brigade or 2 full regiments.

So when talking about a cavalry corp you have to ignore their infantry cousins and think in terms of cavalry. In AACW terms a cavalry division would have 3-4 regiments and a corp 3-4 such divisions.

If you want to think about a cavalry corp with anything near the size of an actual infantry corp, I think that it is a waste of resources unless you have some specific raid with a valuable goal in mind that only a quick, deep strike might achieve. I have done this a couple of times, but I've found that it doesn't use the resources intelligently. Cavalry just doesn't fight as well as infantry, the horse artillery wears out too quickly and in the end, what could you do with them other than break up some railroads?

If your opponent had an unprotected depot whose destruction would put him into a bad position, it might be worth pulling a large cavalry force together. But depots are rarely left unprotected, especially in any proximity to the front, and the time that it would take to siege a lightly protected depot would allow for your opponent to put a force together and hit your sieging cavalry.

Looking at the history most of the raids that Forest and other performed usually had each 'division' hitting a specific target at about 1000-2000 men. These often attacked at the same time to confound the enemy, but the also usually were attacking different targets. I usually stick to this concept unless there is a good reason to do something else; but I can't think of any.

User avatar
Stauffenberg
General
Posts: 548
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Montreal
Contact: Website

Wed May 23, 2012 3:38 pm

Thanks for all that--comprehensive as usual. :gardavou:

No I would not expect a cavalry corps to be anything like an infantry corps in size. The size of a cav division is more like a brigade and the later CCs would often amount to a division as such made up of 2 or three bde-size cavalry units. As you point out, were they were not usually expected to operate as line infantry but there are lots of exceptions. The early cavalry charges and melees against other cavalry units persisted, but Forrest for one trained his men more like dragoons or mounted infantry in ways and employed them effectively. This was a very important factor with Forrest at Chickamauga, or Buford for the union at Gettysburg--the exception proves the rule, what? In game terms Forrest's Corps was often operating as divisons pursuing related tasks.

If I had one tweek available for cavalry in a future patch, I would add a combat stance for cavalry: "Engage (enemy) Cavalry Only" vs "Free Engagement." Probably only then would you see the historical CC's used in the game?

Not completely sure: I'd like to hear from others as I have seen these mythical beasts appear in a few discussions. :dada:

User avatar
Longshanks
AGEod Grognard
Posts: 842
Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:48 pm
Location: Fairfax Virginia

Thu May 24, 2012 3:08 am

Just noticed in Grant's memoirs his description of a "Cavalry Corps" in the Mexican War - it had three companies of dragoons! I think the term "cavalry corps" often was used as just a generic phrase that meant "the detached cavalry of our army" rather than anything else.
Two Rules: 1. The Tournament Director is always right. 2. When the Tournament Director is wrong, see Rule 1.
Image

User avatar
Jim-NC
Posts: 2981
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:21 pm
Location: Near Region 209, North Carolina

Sat May 26, 2012 9:41 pm

IIRC, the CC would be good for destroying routed units. Cav help with destroying routed units, and Lt. Inf help to defend retreating units (read it somewhere on the forum).

I have never used a CC, the best I had was a division of cav (8-12 units) inside a corps. I would use the division as a quick strike/quick response team, and when I need the troops, I move them into the corps. Can't say I remember ever seeing any extra destruction from having a cav division (but I could be forgetful at this point).
Remember - The beatings will continue until morale improves.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

User avatar
yellow ribbon
Posts: 2245
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:42 pm

Sat May 26, 2012 10:14 pm

Stauffenberg wrote:
I'd also like to hear about any specific situations where a CC was involved in battles.


for gameplay: RAIDING, RAIDING, RAIDING and blocking movements in some of Ageods games

for real life:

you have to understand the logic of the American Civil war that days. having no standing chain of command and lot of political influence in the commands/as well as officers got their commission, there was a lack o independent incentives in first years of war.

the cavalry operated on regimental base, attached to brigades, a couple of brigades, not regarding the number of enlisted men, would make up a division, a couple of middle segment officers would split even more brigades up to a couple of divisions, thus a corps.

its like the guns on a contemporary sailship, which were named a division (as well as batteries on land) but simply having htree, four or six guns under the command of a junior oficers

this making concerted actions on targets feasible.

As the fellows write, its not to be confused with numbers, but with ranked officers with independent command.

as example while Antietam all cav were gathered to a single "division" for a planned attack on the rebels center, ON SPOT and named a divisional command

Hooker created a unified overall command after April 1863, giving it the designated term cav corps, but there was the split of commands either.

as example Bufords most famous DIVISIONS was even split up in 2-1 brigade commands, two lead by him, one prowling around.

QUOTING:

Hoofbeats and Cold Steel
Thoughts of Civil War Cavalry Author J. David Petruzzi

ARMY OF THE POTOMAC CAVALRY CORPS

FIRST DIVISION

Brigadier General John Buford

All “strength” numbers denote fighting effectives, taken from the actual June 30, 1863
“Present for Duty” rosters, courtesy of George A. Rummel III.
These numbers, as well as the casualty counts, are much more accurate than any other source commonly available.

combat power:

June 30, 1863 [Stuart] , filled out at Union Mills role call

First Brigade

Colonel William Gamble

8th Illinois
(12 Companies – A through M)
Major John Lourie Beveridge
Strength: 25 Officers, 537 Enlisted
Losses: 1 killed, 5 wounded, 1 missing

12th Illinois
(5 Companies – A, E, F, H, I)
Strength: 12 Officers, 253 Enlisted Men
Losses: 4 killed, 10 wounded, 6 missing
3rd Indiana
(6 Companies – A through F)
Colonel George Henry Chapman
(command of both regiments)
Strength: 17 Officers, 393 Enlisted
Losses: 6 killed, 21 wounded, 5 missing
(Companies G, H, I & K – assigned to Army of the Cumberland;
Companies L & M assigned in Indiana)

8th New York
Lt. Colonel William Lester Markell
Strength: 22 Officers, 685 Enlisted Men
Losses: 2 killed, 22 wounded, 16 missing



Second Brigade

Colonel Thomas Casimer Devin

6th New York
Major William Elliot Beardsley
Strength: 14 Officers, 292 Enlisted
Losses: 1 killed, 3 wounded, 8 missing
(Company A – 3rd Corps Headquarters,
Companies D & K – 2nd Corps Headquarters,
Companies F & H – at Yorktown VA,
Company L – Provost Guard 1st Cav. Div. 2nd Brig.)

9th New York
(10 Companies – A, B, C, E, F, G, H, I, K, M)
Colonel William Sackett
Strength: 31 Officers, 394 Enlisted
Losses: 2 killed, 2 wounded, 7 missing
(Companies D & L – 12th Corps Headquarters)

17th Pennsylvania
Colonel Josiah Holcomb Kellogg
Strength: 464
Losses: 4 missing
(Companies D & H – 5th Corps Headquarters,
Company K – 11th Corps Headquarters)

3rd West Virginia
(2 Companies – A & C)
Captain Seymour Beach Conger
Strength: 5 Officers, 59 Enlisted
Losses: 1 wounded, 1 captured, 2 missing
(Field & Staff, Troops D, E, F, G, H & I assigned to
Department of West Virginia;
Troop B assigned to unknown location;
Troops K, L & M not mustered)







Regulars – Reserve Brigade

Brigadier General Wesley Merritt

1st United States
(10 Companies – A, B, C, E, F, H, I, K, L, M)
Captain Richard S.C. Lord
Number: 15 Officers, 443 Enlisted
Losses: 1 killed, 9 wounded, 5 missing
(Companies D & G were detached and serving at
Fort Larned, Kansas)

2nd United States
Captain Theophilus Francis Rodenbough
Strength: 407
Losses: 3 killed, 7 wounded, 7 missing

5th United States
(11 Companies – No Company L)
Captain Julius Wilmot Mason
Strength: 306
Losses: 4 wounded, 1 missing

6th Pennsylvania
(9 Company Detachment)
Major James Henry Haseltine
Strength: 16 Officers, 337 Enlisted
Losses: 3 killed, 7 wounded, 2 missing
(Companies E & I detached to Army Headquarters)

6th United States
Major Samuel Henry Starr
Strength: 14 Officers, 410 Enlisted
Losses: 6 killed, 28 wounded, 208 captured
(Not on the field, involved in fight at Fairfield, PA on July 3;
Troops D & K temporarily detached to the Provost Marshal at Pleasonton’s Headquarters)
...not paid by AGEOD.
however, prone to throw them into disarray.

PS:

‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘

Clausewitz

User avatar
yellow ribbon
Posts: 2245
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:42 pm

Sat May 26, 2012 10:28 pm

PS:

as someone can see, even in this divisional chain of command, troops and companies were detached and scatter even down to the midwest

George Stoneman was given the command of the three cav DIVISIONS as Corps Commander from Hooker,

but led only two cav Divisions into a series of battles around the Chancellorsville theater, Hooker kept one full division as reserve for all scouting and defending of supply lines


***************

one of the earliest battles of a "cav corps" in the eastern theater

Battle of Brandy Station/ of Fleetwood Hill June 9, 1863, less than 600 killed in action, while 20.000 involved

a typical delaying action engagement. raiding, planed as simple as keeping enemies forward positions on their feets, forcing them to gather reserves etc

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandy_Station_Union_order_of_battle


so Buford had a division with roughly 2000 men, Alfred Pleasonton few days later a understrenght corps of 11.000 men including a infantry brigade of 3,000 men under Brig. Gen. Adelbert Ames (which, history makes fun sometimes, actually was the training officer of J.L: Chamberlain who saved the day at lil round top few days earlier, or not...)

so, one can argue, if there wouldnt be AGEODs "block the enemies movement" the corps of cav would be totally overpowered and unrealistic, but the idea to keep sure larger numbers would take a larger sum of command points minus the fact of combining them to a division/a corps

thats why people like me put in twoe or three brigades and scout or take provinces behind the line to manipulate AIs level of aggressiveness in this area. means, forcing AI t cover the positions while bringing in reserves they dont have in most cases :indien:
...not paid by AGEOD.

however, prone to throw them into disarray.



PS:



‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘



Clausewitz

User avatar
yellow ribbon
Posts: 2245
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:42 pm

Sat May 26, 2012 11:05 pm

see furthermore:

1864 Phillip Sheridan, FOUR Divisions = 1 Corps

1862/63 William S. Rosecrans formed all Army of Cumberland´s cav in ONE single Division as one command

General William T. Sherman had let them operation as flying columns, 4 of them without official divisional command (around the Atlanta theater) not quite successful

late 1864, Brevet Maj. Gen. James H. Wilson had an true operative cav corps in the west, Nashville, later on in April 1865 at Columbus, against Forrest (his single defeat against the yanks)

Pleasonton later had some ad hoc (so called corps commands) in Missouri, 1864, against PRICE´s RAID

http://www.civilwararchive.com/CORPS/cavaop.htm

http://www.civilwararchive.com/CORPS/cavuow.htm
...not paid by AGEOD.

however, prone to throw them into disarray.



PS:



‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘



Clausewitz

User avatar
yellow ribbon
Posts: 2245
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:42 pm

Sat May 26, 2012 11:11 pm

sorry, could not stop myself once digging the nose in books i had not used since 1990s

from a link i found in my notices,

http://www.gdg.org/Research/OOB/Union/gburg_un.html

again, remember most units were far away from 100% manpower and then had troops detached to completely different areas down to Kansas etc

CAVALRY CORPS (Maj. Gen. Alfred Pleasonton)

First Division (Brig. Gen. John Buford)

First Brigade (Col. William Gamble)
8th Illinois (Maj. John L. Beveridge)
12th Illinois (6 cos.) (Col. George H. Chapman)
3rd Indiana (6 cos.) (Col. George H. Chapman)
8th New York (Lieut. Col. William L. Markell)

Second Brigade (Col. Thomas C. Devin)
6th New York (Maj. William E. Beardsley)
9th New York (Col. William Sackett)
17th Pennsylvania (Col. Josiah H. Kellogg)
3rd West Virginia (2 cos.) (Capt. Seymour B. Conger)

Reserve Brigade (Brig. Gen. Wesley Merritt)
6th Pennsylvania (Maj. James H. Heseltine)
1st United States (Capt. Richard S. C. Lord)
2nd United States (Capt. Theophilus F. Rodenbough)
5th United States (Capt. Julius W. Mason)
6th United States (Maj. Samuel H. Starr)
--- (Lieut. Louis H. Carpenter)
--- (Lieut. Nicholas Nolan)
--- (Capt. Ira W. Claflin)

Second Division (Brig. Gen. David McM. Gregg)

First Brigade (Col. John B. McIntosh)
1st Maryland (11 cos.) (Lieut. Col. James M. Deems)
Purnell (Maryland) Legion Co. (A) (Capt. Robert E. Duvall)
1st Massachusetts (Lieut. Col. Greely S. Curtis)
1st New Jersey (Maj. Myron H. Beaumont)
1st Pennsylvania (Col. John P. Taylor)
3rd Pennsylvania (Lieut. Col. Edward S. Jones)
3rd Pennsylvania Artillery Section Battery (H) (Capt. William D. Rank)

Third Brigade (Col. J. Irvin Gregg)
1st Maine (10 cos.) (Lieut. Col. Charles H. Smith)
10th New York (Maj. M. Henry Avery)
4th Pennsylvania (Lieut. Col. William E. Doster)
16th Pennsylvania (Lieut. Col. John K. Robison)

Third Division (Brig. Gen. Judson Kilpatrick)
--- (Col. Nathaniel P. Richmond)

First Brigade (Brig. Gen. Elon J. Farnsworth)
5th New York (Maj. John Hammond)
18th Pennsylvania (Lieut. Col. William P. Brinton)
1st Vermont (Lieut. Col. Addison W. Preston)
1st West Virginia (10 cos.) (Col. Nathaniel P. Richmond)
--- (Maj. Charles E. Capehart)

Second Brigade (Brig. Gen. George A. Custer)
1st Michigan (Col. Charles H. Town)
5th Michigan (Col. Russell A. Alger)
6th Michigan (Col. George Gray)
7th Michigan (10 cos.) (Col. William D. Mann)

Horse Artillery

1st Brigade (Capt. James M. Robertson)
9th Michigan Battery (Capt. Jabez. J. Daniels)
6th New York Battery (Capt. Joseph W. Martin)
2nd United States, Batteries (B & L) (Lieut. Edward Heaton)
2nd United States, Battery (M) (Lieut. A. C. M. Pennington, Jr.)
4th United States, Batterey (E) (Lieut. Samuel S. Elder)

2nd Brigade (Capt. John C. Tidball)
1st United States, Batteries (E & G) (Capt. Alanson M. Randol)
1st United States, Battery (K) (Capt. William M. Graham)
2nd United States, Battery (A) (Lieut. John H. Calef)

ARTILLERY RESERVE (Brig. Gen. Robert O. Tyler)
--- (Capt. James M. Robertson)

1st Brigade (Regular) (Capt. Dunbar R. Ransom)
1st United States, Battery (H) (Lieut. Chandler P. Eakin)
3rd United States, Batteries (F & K) (Lieut. John G. Turnbull)
4th United States, Battery (C) (Lieut. Evan Thomas)
5th United States, Battery (C) (Lieut. Gulian V. Weir)

1st Volunteer Brigade (Lieut. Col. Freeman McGilvery)
Massachusetts Light, 5th Battery (E) (Capt. Charles A. Phillips)
Massachusetts Light, 9th Battery (Capt. John Bigelow)
New York Light, 15th Battery (Capt. Patrick Hart)
Pennsylvania Light, Batteries (C & F) (Capt. James Thompson)

2nd Volunteer Brigade (Capt. Elijah D. Taft)
Connecticut Light, 2nd Battery (Capt. John W. Sterling)
New York Light, 5th Battery (Capt. Elijah D. Taft)

3rd Volunteer Brigade (Capt. James F. Huntington)
New Hampshire Light, 1st Battery (Capt. Frederick M. Edgell)
1st Ohio Light, Battery (H) (Lieut. George W. Norton)
1st Pennsylvania Light, Batteries (F & G) (Capt. R. Bruce Ricketts)
West Virginia Light, Battery (C) (Capt. Wallace Hill)

4th Volunteer Brigade (Capt. Robert H. Fitzhugh)
Maine Light, 6th Battery (F) (Lieut. Edwin B. Dow)
Maryland Light, Battery (A) (Capt. James H. Rigby)
1st New Jersey Light, Battery (A) (Lieut. Agustin N. Parsons)
1st New York Light, Battery (G) (Capt. Nelson Ames)
1st New York Light, Battery (K) (Capt. Robert H. Fitzhugh)
11th New York Battery (Capt. Robert H. Fitzhugh)

TRAIN GUARD 4th New Jersey (4 cos.) (Maj. Charles Ewing)
Sources:
Official Records
Edwin B. Coddington The Gettysburg campaign: a study in command
Blake A. Magner and Michael A. Cavanaugh A photographic guide to Gettysburg battlefield commanders
Author:
Kerry Webb
June 1997
Kerry Webb Canberra Australia kwebb@alianet.alia.org.au (+616) 2301425 http://www.alia.org.au/~kwebb/
...not paid by AGEOD.

however, prone to throw them into disarray.



PS:



‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘



Clausewitz

Return to “AGEod's American Civil War”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 64 guests