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Pocus
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One feature a day serie: #12 structures

Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:01 pm

Screenshots are soon coming, but in the meantime let's talk about 'flavor' and 'aesthetic' :)

The various structures of a region are regrouped in a single sprite in AACW, which has the notable property of showing exactly what is there in the region! This is mostly done for flavor, but it can also be useful to gather quickly some infos, like the presence of a depot, a big stockpile of ammunitions or a high level fortification. (rest assured, you have tooltips and special filters to get more infos on a specific detail).

Pre-war forts have their own sprite, and will only show if there is a stockpile or if an anchorage is there (this is the case most of the time). Teepees show indians village.

Cities are regrouped in something we name 'cityscape'. Here you can see chimneys, showing that the city is producing war supply (heavy materials mostly used for ships and guns), or tents showing that there is a regular 'income' in conscripts from the city (this is seldomly the case, as in AACW you get conscripts by issuing call to volunteers and such, but more later ;) ).

The first board show you some possibles variations of a cityscape (populations level don't change during the war though). It dates a bit and some things have been refined. You can see the final and current version in the second board (comments are in french, but they are not needed to understand what is at hand I think).

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vonkraus
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Feedback on location sprites

Sat Dec 02, 2006 2:12 pm

These location sprites are FANTASTIC!!! :nuts: The bad thing about them is that they are so damn small that all that excellent graphics work is too hard to see for most players. I have excellent vision and have a 19" monitor set to 1024/768 and 24-bit color and the differences in the structures are just too hard to see to be of any real use. :p leure:

Would it be possible to have a small box (like a tool tip) pop up with a larger view of the location in it when the player clicked a certain way on the structure (say ctr-left-click or double left-click or something)?

I love the flag pole idea for indicating units and fleets! :hat: I think that it will be much more visually effective than the little pulsing red boxes.
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saintsup
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Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:30 am

vonkraus wrote:These location sprites are FANTASTIC!!! :nuts: The bad thing about them is that they are so damn small that all that excellent graphics work is too hard to see for most players. I have excellent vision and have a 19" monitor set to 1024/768 and 24-bit color and the differences in the structures are just too hard to see to be of any real use. :p leure:


Second that ... to much information in a too small area.

But I love your graphic 'touch' in general

jelay14
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Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:33 am

Image

Flint...Howell...

I can't help but notice and ask, since I'm from around cities with those names: Is that the map for Michigan? :)

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Pocus
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Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:13 am

Second that ... to much information in a too small area.


this is why for us it's bonus informations, in the sense that we know that they are small, but as we don't really wanted to have the city sprites bigger, we made the conscious choice to have the various buildings that small.

Basically the choice was:

a) have a 128 pixels wide sprite which only show the city level
b) same as (a) plus you get added cosmetic details on the actual building. It's a bonus...
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Hobbes
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Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:25 pm

Without the sky backdrop I think they are terrific!
Cheers, Chris

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Generalisimo
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Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:19 pm

vonkraus wrote:I love the flag pole idea for indicating units and fleets! :hat: I think that it will be much more visually effective than the little pulsing red boxes.

Yep, a great idea to see what you have in just a quick glance at the map. :niark:
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Remise
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Mr. Quibble Strikes Again

Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:41 pm

I know you cannot do everything, and I also know that most of the things hard-core Civil War buffs such as myself might note would not be apparent even to dedicated wargamers.

Having admitted this, maybe you can change the Confederate flags you are showing in this art. The flag you are displaying is not only not the national flag, it is also not the battle flag (carried by many Confederate infantry regiments, after the first year of the war). it is, in fact, the naval jack, i.e., the flag that would be flown on Confederate naval vessels. The naval jack is rectangular -- the battle flag would have been square.

My office-mate -- also a Civil War "nut" like me -- suggests that it might be nice if you could substitute either the Confederate "National Flag," or the "Second National Flag," both of which would have been flown over forts, camps, and government buildings. It should be fairly easy to find depictions of these.

B.C. Milligan

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Pocus
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Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:22 pm

I will post the request to the artists. If they find time, why not.
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Le Ricain
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Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:03 pm

I agree with Remise that the Confederate national flag should be used rather than the Battle flag.

The 1st national flag was adopted in March 1861 and had 7 stars representing the seven states then in the Confederacy.

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The number of stars was increased as more states joined the Confederacy. The most common flag had 11 stars (for the 11 member states), but there were flags with 13 stars (for Kentucky and Missouri which had both Federal and Confederate governments), 14 stars (for Maryland which was prevented from seceding), 15 stars (For Delaware, a slave state that remained in the union) and Standhope Watie had a flag with 16 stars (11 plus 5 for the Indian Nations that joined the South).

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However, the Stars and Bars resembled closely the Stars and Bars and led to confusion in battle. In May 1863, the 2nd national flag, the Stainless Banner, was adopted.

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However, on windless days the flag was often mistaken for a flag of truce. In March 1865 the third national flag was adopted.

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I think that for the game's purposes, the 1st national flag (with 11 stars) would be sufficient.
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Haplo_Patryn
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Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:57 pm

Beautiful sprites, awesome!

I suppose that the sprites are made by Sandra, who made BoA sprites as well. Please, tell her that she is doing a fantastic job. :coeurs:

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Sandra
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:04 am

The 3D sprites (all the cities) are made by Robin. And I agree, I love them too. ;)

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Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:35 am

Remise wrote:Having admitted this, maybe you can change the Confederate flags you are showing in this art. The flag you are displaying is not only not the national flag, it is also not the battle flag (carried by many Confederate infantry regiments, after the first year of the war). it is, in fact, the naval jack, i.e., the flag that would be flown on Confederate naval vessels. The naval jack is rectangular -- the battle flag would have been square.


... but it is the flag that almost everyone associates with the confederacy. Even here in the deep south, I doubt that 10% of the people could tell you that it isn't the 'real' flag. I think I'd leave it for that reason alone.

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Remise
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:03 am

Frank E wrote:... but it is the flag that almost everyone associates with the confederacy. Even here in the deep south, I doubt that 10% of the people could tell you that it isn't the 'real' flag. I think I'd leave it for that reason alone.


I agree with you, save -- and perhaps you missed this point -- the naval jack was most assuredly not the flag most people associated with the Confederacy. This would be the battle flag, which was a perfectly square version of the same thing, and should probably not be difficult to generate.

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jelay14
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:39 am

Whether or not the Naval Jack is the flag most people today associate with the Confederacy, it's still the flag you see on the back of pickup trucks, in people's basements, and flown at white nationalism rallies. The square version, the Battle Flag, is seen, or used to be seen, anyway, in the canton on several Southern state flags. A real common misconception is that people think the Naval Jack and/or the Battle Flag is the Stars and Bars.

Personally I'm not all that bothered by the naval/battle flag being shown in the game over the Stars and Bars. Though it would be interesting if the Stars and Bars was implemented, and then a Federal player could be skimming through the map and move a garrison or unit over to a town he thought was flying the Stars and Stripes, because they look similar out of the corner of the eye.

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Remise
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:36 am

I don't really care, either, as how many people know the battle flag was square? It's going to look good either way. Sometimes people know too much about a subject, when knowing a bit less would make it more enjoyable.

Casse in point -- I am sure not many people were annoyed (as I was) to see General Patton observing German troops in Tunisia moving toward him in Patton (M-48) tanks. Who besides me really cared? Nobody, is my guess! The movie was still good.

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Hobbes
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:41 pm

I cared Remise!

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Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:36 pm

General Patton observing German troops in Tunisia moving toward him in Patton (M-48) tanks.


Tricky those germans, aren't they? :king:
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Sandra
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:56 pm

So, the same flag, but a square one, would be good for everybody ?

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Fouche
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the flag....

Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:02 pm

Hello...aye...aye...

I vote yes on the square shape...

And yes I was bothered by the Patton tanks in the film Patton (as I was bothered by similar use in the film, Battle of the Bulge..oh my! [which was indeed a strange film anyway]). But then if they had CGI graphics back then...or did what was done in A Bridge Too Far...wait...I am getting off the point here..sorry. :siffle:

Anyway...

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Remise
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:22 pm

Well, since you ask, I care, too. Honest, Hobbes! As I posted elsewhere, if it's just as easy to do it right, why not?

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Florent
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:36 pm

Ok for the square battle flag.

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Tue Dec 05, 2006 4:57 pm

Hi everyone - first post here, and I really look forward to the game.

I would prefer one of the Confederate national flags, as posted by Le Ricain. We are talking about buildings and structures, and I think that it is more logical that they would fly some version of the national flag, rather than a battle flag.

Although the square battle flag was the most commonly used in the Army of Northern Virginia, the western Confederate armies flew a variety of battle flags, many of which did not resemble the square battle flag in the least. There was also a version that did resemble it, but was rectangular! - although I don't remember which unit flew it.

Here is a nice link to flags of the Confederacy: http://www.confederateflags.org/

Regards,
DickH

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arsan
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:17 pm

Hi
I would let the flag just as it is right now: the famous, cool and universally known CSA flag.
Maybe it’s not the historically accurate one but it’s the one everybody associates with the south in the civil war.

The real ones, posted above are really difficult to differentiate from the Union ones.

The game will have a very big and busy map and the flags should be easy to tell apart if you want to know who owns and area.
About using the square one: it’s a battle flag so its not going to be historical used in cities and forts…
With this we don’t improve realism and its going to look weird…

Just my two cents
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:34 pm

arsan wrote:Hi
I would let the flag just as it is right now: the famous, cool and universally known CSA flag.
Maybe it’s not the historically accurate one but it’s the one everybody associates with the south in the civil war.

The real ones, posted above are really difficult to differentiate from the Union ones.


I agree.
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:43 pm

I'd leave it as-is.

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Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:48 pm

Sandra has a very tight schedule so every change has to be carefully thought.

I checked the website above. Half of the CSA army had a square battle flag (eastern theater), and the other half had a rectangular battle flag (western theater), not to mention the three national flags...

So if Sandra works on a square one, what can guarantee other won't asking for a rectangular flag (because they are fans of the Army of Tennessee), or for the 3 successice national flags? :nuts:
"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference." Mark Twain



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Florent
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:31 pm

I was looking at Don Troiani artworks and yes there is rectangular battle flag too, not only square ones. Then after all it is perhaps good to leave it as it is since a square battle flag will be a little smaller. I totally agree with Arsan that there is too much confusion between USA and CSA national flag.

jelay14
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:59 pm

Remise wrote:I don't really care, either, as how many people know the battle flag was square? It's going to look good either way. Sometimes people know too much about a subject, when knowing a bit less would make it more enjoyable.

Casse in point -- I am sure not many people were annoyed (as I was) to see General Patton observing German troops in Tunisia moving toward him in Patton (M-48) tanks. Who besides me really cared? Nobody, is my guess! The movie was still good.

B.C. Milligan


Not as annoying as the movie Gods and Generals, which at the very beginning showed the scene between Robert E. Lee and the Union official offering him command of the U.S. Army. Lee was shown with his white beard and mustache, which he did not have at that time in 1861.

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Remise
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Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:12 pm

jelay14 wrote:Not as annoying as the movie Gods and Generals, which at the very beginning showed the scene between Robert E. Lee and the Union official offering him command of the U.S. Army. Lee was shown with his white beard and mustache, which he did not have at that time in 1861.


Gods and Generals! Now the nightmares are going to start again! I have friends who were either paid or unpaid extras in that movie. I sat through it -- once -- for their sake, but what a ponderous affair it was.

As far as the flags go -- and I sort of started that pillow fight, which I regret -- this discussion is making me dizzy. Maybe we can talk about something else, like Professor Lowe and his balloons.

B.C. Milligan
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