Frederick the Great Campaigns

[vicco]

To the AGEOD team, congratulations on a great game system!!

I'd like to add my own 2 cents worth of suggestions for the next game: the campaigns of Frederick the Great.

SPI (that shows you how old I am!! ) published such a game in one of their S&T magazine in the 1970s. Your system would be perfect for it. It is in the same era.

Keep up the good work!

[PDF]

Well, in fact that's an idea PhilThib considered !
Did you keep your antiquated S&T mag ?

[PhilThib]

In fact I own this old SPI one..excellent. I also had the Avalon Hill one, a bit less interesting...

[vicco]

Actually it was my neighbor's. But, we played the heck out of it until he moved away. :-(

If PhilThib still has one, he is one lucky person. I hope that it can be the basis for the next game for the BoA system [hint, hint :-)].

[Dave Logan]

Anyone who wants anything to do with Frederick the Great should go to the Dragoon games (atleast for now). I think we need to be more inventive - The Italian Wars, Huguenot Wars in France, and especially The 30 Years Wars, with the great Lion of the North, Gustavus II Adolphus, who has never had a game made about his polish wars or his campaign in the 30 years war. He was one of the major military minds of history, yet is forgotten for Frederick, who was by far his inferior (which is not an insult at all). The Grecian War of Independence of 1824 is also interesting in a way.
I'm sure I could flesh a European map-based engine into almost any european war. I know the history, but not the technology. If anyone is interested send a message my way.
But as far as mods go The War of 1812 must come first....

[Sol Invictus]

How could anyone be tired of "Old Fritz"? Sure, Dragoon is a fine game but it is completely composed of tactical battles. There has never been a game published that covered the campaigns of Frederick on the pc to my knowledge. Besides, Frederick would sell more copies than Gustavus. I would also like to see a TYW game made using the BOA engine, but only after Frederick is given the AGEOD treatment.

[Dave Logan]

I think if we really come together as a community with this mods could be spun out quick and even wars that have as of yet made it to a video game could be made. I agree about the Dragoon Engine and what is with the load time on their last. Regardless, I think the point is that this engine is more like a game of chess (which is why we should slow down the animation!!!) with the grand dance of armies positioning for a stike at the jugular. I'm a grad student and can help with data from the first classical Greek wars onwards. I study Polybius who stressed geography in war. I like the terrain and weather part of this engine and think that 'zooming' (i.e. making more provinces) the map in more would let a player take more advantage of terrain and of such things as Fabian tactics. Lastly, why can't their be a single strategy game that lets one click on a button and seen bright colourful lines of supply? Why do they always have to be invisible?

[PhilThib]

Well, in BoA there are no supply lines ...but let's keep the suggestion in the back of our mind for a future game that will have one..

[Ardie]

I'll vote for the Thirty Years War also!!!!

It will be a difficult project to simulate the whole war but if someone can pull it they'll get instant recognition from the grognards.

All the different phases, Danish intervention, Swedish intervention and the final French intervention. More or less in the story: the English Civil war and the Dutch war of independence.

Muskets and pikes, shock cavalry (yeaa the Finns!!!), sieges and fortresses, defecting and unreliable allies, Richelieus' money to keep the war going.

Some great & famous generals: Gustav II Adolf, Baner, Tott, Horn, the Great Conde, Turenne, Gallas, Pappenheim, Tilly and Wallenstein.

Never been done so what's not there to like? (Ok, I'm a little biased )

[Pocus]

for a totally new mod you have first to comes with a map and an OOB... Which player will make the first step?

[Dave Logan]

Artie ar du finsk? I think it would be profitable to put a new 'modding' section in the forums and try to work together like the AGEEP for EUII. I still think 1812 should be first, but do agree with all the points Artie made. The Thirty Years war lends itself to the making of a map - just look at a map of what we call Germany around say 1600. If we are to make a map of Europe it would be enormous, but maybe one of just the Holy Roman Empire would be doable.
I know a lot of history and almost nothing about computing. Where do I start with a map, Pocus?
Phil if the computer can 'see' supply, why can't I? I'm guessing it's not something easily fixed. It would completely change war gaming if one could see it.
(I'm editing this thread) Good ideas dinsdale - esp. India - as far as the Penn. War goes have you played Davros' mod of Austerlitz: Napoleon's Greatest Victory - it atleast gives you a number of their battles?
I'd like to complement the development team of BoA on a great game about two wars seldom seen on PC. I don't wan't you guys to feel that we just want your engine and don't enjoy your games. =-)

[dinsdale]

The charm of this game for me is the combination of low unit density, maneuver and the difficulty in forcing deceisive battle. Added problem of having to garrison so many areas to win.

As I've said before, the closest other campaign IMHO is the Peninsular War, but I also love the idea of the 30 Years War.

There are plenty of others which would be candidates: English Civil War, India (although imagine the map size ) Revolutionary France in Italy, maybe even Dutch Independence or the Franco-Spanish wars.

Nothing against Frederick The Great, and such a campaign at the operational scale has never been done that I'm aware of, but the game would be very different due to the relation of army size to the map. Battles would be 4 or 5 times larger than anything in BOA, and maybe most importantly, supply would have to be moddeled a little differently.

But..... if you do Frederick, and have the map, then the dream of mine; playing Struggle Of Nations (Germany 1813) on the PC would be one step closer

[PhilThib]

One of the key factors in making a game adapted from BoA on all these subjects is to have a proper map.

That means finding the right map size and theater of operations, then "cutting" into the map the various regions on a logical scale (compared, say, to turn scale)...

If players / modders are able to supply this, we save 2 months of development and this could mean a difference between selecting one subject versus another in terms of next game project...

A good thing is, in my opinion, that the same map regional cut could be used for most game located in Europe

[rasnell]

Since you have a nice US map, how about modifying the city and region details and modding the Civil War

[Ardie]

Artie ar du finsk?

Yes I am so naturally I would like see some Hakkapeliittas in action

Personally I'm a bit tired of WW2 and the American Civil War besides I don't think that the present map is a correct one for the ACW; just think of the Eastern Theatre as it's quite small for ANV vs. AOP to slug it out.

However the map is fine for action in Kentucky, Tennessee and Georgia.

[blackbellamy]

The Grecian War of Independence of 1824 has been done to death. If I have to assault Mesolongi one more time I think I'm going to puke!

But speaking of Greeks, you know what would be a good conflict for the BoA engine? The Peloponnesian War. Imagine, 360 turns of trireme smashing goodness! You could have Alcibiades as Benedict Arnold, turning his coat three times! And who could play the Hessians better than the Thebans? Sieges would take on a whole new dimension - "Do you wish to slaughter the entire garrison and sell the women into slavery? YES/NO" Oh, the joy!

[pasternakski]

But speaking of Greeks, you know what would be a good conflict for the BoA engine? The Peloponnesian War. Imagine, 360 turns of trireme smashing goodness! You could have Alcibiades as Benedict Arnold, turning his coat three times! And who could play the Hessians better than the Thebans? Sieges would take on a whole new dimension - "Do you wish to slaughter the entire garrison and sell the women into slavery? YES/NO" Oh, the joy!

Once upon a time, a long, long time ago (must have been February), some odd little creature named Poosterhooskie or some other nonsense made this same suggestion.

Met with little approbation and no commentary, by the way.

If this system were used to present the Peloponnesian War, I'd be happier than a hillbilly with a corn liquor jug and a gallon jar of pickled hamhocks.

One place to start might be with perusing Victory Games's old solitaire title of the same name ... the map in particular might be useful. It was point-to-point with defined path types, but it is notable for its completeness and accuracy (for a wargame map) and suggests the pattern of region divisions that would be necessary to accommodate the BoA engine.

[PhilThib]

This is an excellent suggestion. A good way to start evaluating such a project would be to scan the said map

[Dave Logan]

If it has anything to do with the ancients I can fill you in on the data. I'm studying Polybius and his work was long used (especially in Europe after 1600) for tactics. I have a bunch of classical atlases. Any OOB will be guesswork, but could be taken out of the sources in less than a day.
If I had my druthers I would start with 1812 and then turn to Europe. If a fine European Engine is made then any war can be simulated - just stick in the data. I think we should at all costs avoid the American Civil War.

Artie, jag ar amerikansk men bodde i Sverige 2002-2005. Det ar bra att traffa nagon som kan spraket. (forlat inga svensk tangentbord.)

[Sol Invictus]

Since we are throwing out wishes, I would also like a Peloponnesian War or a Second Punic War game. IMO, just forget about anything that happened between 202 B. C.-1618 A. D. That still leaves many great subjects to work with.

[Gallus Sinensis]

Antique wargaming would be great !

Based on existing boardgames, for 2 players, you could do the Peloponesian War (I've got the game, never played it though, do you really want a scan ?), the Punic Wars (Hannibal by AH is still for me the best boardgame I've ever played) and Alexander's campaigns (I've pre-ordered it from GMT for ages).

If multiplayer is contemplated, for sources, you have the famous Imperium Romanum 2 which gives a whopping number of scenarios. The fall of the Western Roman Empire might be fun too. The scale is maybe unadapted to your system because of the map being too large.

Outside of boardgames I know, there are still a lot of antique campaignes that would be fun to see with your BOA engine.

Julius Caesar's conquest of the Gauls comes to my mind. Lots of wilderness, plenty of militia like Gaul warbands popping here and there, lots of siege action...

The Greek-Persian wars might be fun too...

Well, so many things to do and so little time...

[Levis]

While everyone is throwing out wishes, I would like to see scenarios for the other three colonial wars. They could use the same map, but OOB is a real headache. But these earlier wars offer a lot of interesting situations and "what ifs." For example, the attack on Louisbourg in 1745 by a bunch of New England militia (who captured the place!). Or Phips disasterous attack on Quebec in 1690. Or the great "what if" of the colonial wars--what if France had properly fortified Port Royale (Annapolis Royale after the English took it in Queen Anne's War) in 1702. Imagine a fortress stronger than Louisbourg, pointed like a pistol right at Boston.

[pasternakski]

This is an excellent suggestion. A good way to start evaluating such a project would be to scan the said map

"Peruse" is one thing, my dear Philippe. "Scan" is a copyright violation...

[pasternakski]

Well, sportsfans, our individual wishes are near and dear to us, but will they bring revenue to AGEOD's bank account?

As with so many other history lovers here, I would like to see every subject covered by a game. Unfortunately, most of them would only sell about 17 copies.

One place to look for guidance is the development policies being followed by most cardboard-and-paper wargame companies these days (primary case in point being GMT). They "float" a game idea and ask for pledges. When enough people have committed to the purchase, the game goes ahead. In those markets these days, publishers are looking for what once would have been the sad, sad total of 500-1,000 sales (the proceeds from which are used to create a few thousand additional games for retail distribution in shops whose biggest business anymore seems to be going out of business sales).

It seems not much more than a break-even proposition at best anymore. I doubt that a computer wargaming company could survive on such meager sales results.

So, let's suggest game subjects that are real "barn burners," like the Peloponnesian War, which is known, understood, and followed by oh, so many potential customers ...

*sigh* Oh, well. If I had lived in a world where my tastes were popular, I probably would have ended up hating myself.

[Sol Invictus]

So true; economic viability will ultimately drive game developement. As nice as the AGEOD team is, I doubt they are doing all of this just for the fun of it. That is why I think it is not reasonable to cover some of these little known conflicts; even though I and many others who frequent these boards would lap it up. For this reason, I feel that Frederick the Great would be a more profitable venture than Gustavus Adolfus and even the Peloponnesian War. Though I wouldn't enjoy it quite as much as Frederick, from a purely profit motive, the American Civil War would be the safest bet. As I said a few weeks ago, I would lay down the full price for whatever the next game is today, without even knowing the subject. I can't say this about any other developer.

[Henry D.]

...One place to start might be with perusing Victory Games's old solitaire title of the same name ... the map in particular might be useful. It was point-to-point with defined path types, but it is notable for its completeness and accuracy (for a wargame map) and suggests the pattern of region divisions that would be necessary to accommodate the BoA engine.

I think I still own that one, although my copy was published by Avalon Hill. A rare gem, especially because unlike other games with rules for solitary play, it was actually fun to play it against myself. The more successful you played one side, the more likely You were to end up playing the other side in the next term. Whoever came up with this concept was a real genius...

I too agree that it's map with its "city to city via pre-defined movement paths" system would work well with the current BoA engine...

I hereby officially add a Peloponnesian War-Game to my personal AGEOD-wishlist! (Hey, a man can always dream, can't he? )

As I said a few weeks ago, I would lay down the full price for whatever the next game is today, without even knowing the subject. I can't say this about any other developer.

I second that!

[Dave Logan]

I could make a game that sells. I'd bet on it. But if one is talking business mail me and we'll talk, thought about it a lot actually. But if you want my services you have to buy them, it's a simple matter of time.
Here I'm speaking of modding the existing engine.
As far as ancient modding goes, any war is possible and not too complicated to get the OOB for. The scripting would take a little longer. You'll find details to be lacking in many ways, but they can be smoothed over. I have maps that CAN be scanned - if they still have copyrights, they can be paid off for a pittance.
Except for a few river outlets, I think starting from a purely geographical map is best. All ancient battles are dependent on it (ever wonder why there are 2 or 3 battle of so-and-such a place?). If you want a map where you can see mountain passes and move through them, your map is going to be big, but not enormous.
The 2nd Punic is much more dynamic, quite large though. Why not start with something small to test the engine out under the new conditions? How about a 6-10 turn Cleomenic or Social War? Your map would be small and only 3-5 armies are involved (including Ptolemy's as possible 'help' for Cleomenes). Try fighting in the Morea before you start making maps of the Mediterranean. If you guys need help with data I'm in, just make a decision on which war you want to wage and message me.
1812 still really ought to be first, seeing that we have all but scripting and an OOB.
Why not take a poll?

[PhilThib]

We are a small team and can only make one game at a time. Our next game shall attract more attention than this one if we ever want to complete our own wishlist, which is quite big too

We are currently trying to find a publisher who would like to support one of our endeavors.

Just to give you a "clue", all the games subject mentionned are planned, some sooner than others...we even have subjects you never heard of

[pasternakski]

I could make a game that sells. I'd bet on it.

Love to see it. Might not buy it.

But if one is talking business mail me and we'll talk, thought about it a lot actually. But if you want my services you have to buy them, it's a simple matter of time.

Self-aggrandizement might be a good subject for a PM, not a general broadcast.

[Dave Logan]

It wasn't meant like that, it was merely meant as a reality - I'm doing grad work and if you want what little time I have, you have to pay for it. . I do apologize if my words offended you. Everyone sells themselves - just the price varies.

Phil, after Great Invasions and Pax Romana (you were in on both, yes?), two games that had wonderful ideas (my thesis is akin to the premise of aging in the first), but complexity was combined with a horrid interface that even a grognard couldn't grasp (AP's and CP's or whatever), one can see ideas aren't the problem: it's execution. This is even more true if one plans to appeal to a mass audience (and 'mass audience' doesn't mean you have to dumb-down your games - it simply means money).

Another idea is to make a universal european war engine with a fine editor that could easily be applied to any war.