Boxed editions of VgN ?

[Franciscus]

In another thread an important issue has been discussed, namely the (non) availability of boxed editions for future Ageod games (including RoP).
To simplify matters, I think it would be useful to make a poll of the forum sensibilities, focusing our attention on the upcoming VgN. It looks to be an epic game, maybe the best Ageod yet.

Would you, if there was a chance :
1. Order a boxed edition shipped to you no matter the contents ?
2. Order a boxed edition provided it would contain "premium" physical content - namely a printed color manual, map, info cards (eg, units cards, etc), etc, agreeing to pay a premium price for such a "collector's box" ?
3. Only consider digital download ?

Pre-orders could start early (months) pre-release to gauge interest. Boxed editions buyers would have access to DD version also.

I would go with choice number 2. If the content would be good I would consider paying up to twice the price of the DD. But a boxed set with only a CD and a pdf manual or a cheap black and white manual would not interest me at all.

I understand that the investment in doing something like option number 2 would be great.
And no matter what we or the developers want, this is a niche market.

But I also believe that an effort should be made by companies like Ageod to understand what is their target audience: are they the "Steam" kids that could not care less about a manual or middle-age folks with more wide ranging interests, that actually know how to read and love a good manual and other historical oriented material in their hands ?
Another factor, and I am not being pedantic here, is a matter of "prestige": many of us are not rich, but sincerely love our hobby. Many probably do not care that much if a DD game is cheaper, and are willing to pay more to have our interests catered for. Like table-top wargamers, that love to spend hours meticulously painting their lead soldiers and would laugh at the idea of buying pre-painted plastic models.

Regards

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Franciscus]

My dear Gray, it is good to see your marriage has not affected your sense of humor . And I am flattered you think that I have the money to buy 2000 boxes from PhilThib .

Jokes aside, I am not trying to convince anybody. Even more so because the decision to make or not future AGEOD releases available in box format is probably no longer on the hands of the Phils. And let me tell you, it makes me sad to see that I can find in my local FNAC shop shleves both East India Company, Mount&Blade, EUIII, Crusader Kings, etc (also published by Paradox) but not any Ageod's games .

A poll has limited value. Nevertheless, please note that up until now from the people that bothered to vote, more than half would buy a box version of VgN, IF it were made available. You can say that they are just a few "enthusiasts" or "old-timers", or that they will buy VgN in DD in the end. But the fact is that those peolpe are potential buyers whose wants are not being taken appropriate care by the publisher. And believe me, Ageod needs enthusiasts.

2000 left-over boxes are meaningless to me. How many boxes were made and why ? What was the total amount of games sold ? What were the contents of the boxes and their prices ?. IIRC, there never were made available "collector's boxes" from any of Ageod's games. And sorry, an empty box with a CD with the game and a pdf manual is just not enough, at least to me. Some added value is IMHO necessary.

Although I can not buy those 2000 boxes , I am prepared to put my money where my writing is. I assure you that if tomorrow a pre-order of a collector's edition of VgN were made available, I would pay twice the price of the DD version. Just give me the prospect of receiving a beautiful box, with a proper printed and bound color manual, maps and other historic material, game art, and I will do it. To further lure more "enthusiasts", offer a quasi-beta status to those that pre-order: Access to a separate sub-forum, access to game art and music, even access to a beta pre-release version when available, as others do. I may be wrong, of course, but it would only attract more potential buyers.

Regards

[Gray_Lensman]

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[vonRocko]

Do you really think those companies went bust because of boxed games?

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Fastsnake]

Yes, it's sad but true, I agree.
I'm definitely against the dematerialization of the games. But if I can't kick up a real fuss about it concerning Half-Life 2 and Crysis 2, it's obvious that not to produce games in a boxed version is a wise decision for the future og Ageod.

Amen.

[Franciscus]

If the demand for boxes exist (it seems so), then the reason to not produce them is about reducing costs. Completely understandable.

Nevertheless, digital-download only games have, still, less visibility then boxes; many of the folks that would like Ageod games are probably not very internet-friendly and might not ever know they exist; and some still simply do not buy DD games. Collector's boxes give "prestige" and visibility to a game/developer.

So, one of the unavoidable consequences of no boxes is less visibility; probably less sales; and the fulfillment, in the end, of the "inevitable" irrelevance and disappearance of developers and games like Ageod's.

Unavoidable ? Probably

Regards

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Generalisimo]

If the demand for boxes exist (it seems so), then the reason to not produce them is about reducing costs. Completely understandable.

Nevertheless, digital-download only games have, still, less visibility then boxes; many of the folks that would like Ageod games are probably not very internet-friendly and might not ever know they exist; and some still simply do not buy DD games. Collector's boxes give "prestige" and visibility to a game/developer.

So, one of the unavoidable consequences of no boxes is less visibility; probably less sales; and the fulfillment, in the end, of the "inevitable" irrelevance and disappearance of developers and games like Ageod's.

Really, I think this is YOUR opinion (well, obviously ), but not based on facts, just on what you would like to see.
It is completelly understandable and it is your wish... but it is more or less like me trying to see Argentina winning the upcoming World Cup.
Sadly (and not only for you really), the distributors are going another road... and it is not because they love to "ignore the customers" precisely.

AFAIK, creating such a "collector's edition" is not as simple as you suggest... just printing the manual is not a plus nowadays, for nobody.
Actually, many people complain all around the place that a printed manual is worthless with the pace of patches...
Why? well, because by the time you read the printed manual, most of the rules decribed in there have been changed on a patch.
Now, do a simple excercise... take a look at the first version of the AACW manual, pre-release version... and try to play the current game with that.
Many things have changed... so, even if you try to be "as generic as posible" to avoid making the manual void on the first patch... you just can't in some cases.
So, really, you are trying to say that printing a manual is a plus... when it is not nowadays. A new .pdf version of the manual should be released with every patch in the current scenario.

Also, a collectors edition is good for another type of market. There are lot of examples of that... Napoleon Total War, Fallout 3, Batman Arkham Asylum, Resistance 2, Resident Evil 5, Assassins Creed 2, etc, etc. All blockbuster titles that will sell A LOOOOOT more than any AGEOD title in particular.
Are you really trying to compare these titles with AGEOD sales?
If you try to do that, I will hit you with a stick, really... oke:

Just because a bunch of people will like to read the printed manual (and they visit the official forum ), it doesn't mean AGEOD should follow their advice... yes, that's sad, but true.

Unavoidable ? Probably

It is the new trend sadly... you should get on the wave... or the wave will past over you...

[Franciscus]

@Generalisimo:
Do not worry, I am completely in the wave, until the end. It's just it will not be very funny when it will be just you and me riding it...
Regarding manuals and collector's editions: No, I was not referring to NTW
I was thinking, more recently, about HWLG. As long as a lonely guy can produce such an astounding box, it will be hard to convince me it can not be done.
And manuals ? HWLG has, as I said before a 200 pgs bound manual and more 200 pdf pages. The game has bugs and will be patched. Erratas will exist. But said manual has enormous amounts of space dedicated to core rules, that will not change. To strategic teachings and advices. To complete instructions about the OOB, Maps and doctrines editors. To the battles that come with the game. To the various nations armies organizations. That kind of material will not become irrelevant. And as long as a lonely guy does it, it will be hard to convince me it can not be done

@Gray
Regarding boxes and visibility, 2 points:
- In the nearest FNAC store, I can find lots of boxes of games published by Paradox: HOI3, EUIII, EIC, M&B, etc. As long as Ageod's publisher makes them, it will be hard to convince me it can not be done
- Go to Amazon.com. Search for Ageod, and you will find the boxes of all the pre ROP games, some at bargain prices. I bet many of the people that recently bought AACW have bought such a box. So, visibility adn accessibility is not just on the physical shelves. As long as Amazon sells boxes, it will be hard to convince me it can not be done

Regards

[Generalisimo]

@Generalisimo:
Do not worry, I am completely in the wave, until the end. It's just it will not be very funny when it will be just you and me riding it...

Regarding manuals and collector's editions: No, I was not referring to NTW
I was thinking, more recently, about HWLG. As long as a lonely guy can produce such an astounding box, it will be hard to convince me it can not be done.
And manuals ? HWLG has, as I said before a 200 pgs bound manual and more 200 pdf pages. The game has bugs and will be patched. Erratas will exist. But said manual has enormous amounts of space dedicated to core rules, that will not change. To strategic teachings and advices. To complete instructions about the OOB, Maps and doctrines editors. To the battles that come with the game. To the various nations armies organizations. That kind of material will not become irrelevant. And as long as a lonely guy does it, it will be hard to convince me it can not be done

As long as we do not know the outcome of the HWLG story... then it doesn't have sense to discuss it.
I have run myself a "family business" and really, it was not profitable at all if it wasn't for our hard work on it (extra hours, etc). That doesn't mean a serious/big company should copy the same behaviour to do a succesfull business.

@Gray
Regarding boxes and visibility, 2 points:
- In the nearest FNAC store, I can find lots of boxes of games published by Paradox: HOI3, EUIII, EIC, M&B, etc. As long as Ageod's publisher makes them, it will be hard to convince me it can not be done

Again... I will hit with a stick if you tell me HOI3 sold the same than ROP... oke:

- Go to Amazon.com. Search for Ageod, and you will find the boxes of all the pre ROP games, some at bargain prices. I bet many of the people that recently bought AACW have bought such a box. So, visibility adn accessibility is not just on the physical shelves. As long as Amazon sells boxes, it will be hard to convince me it can not be done

Again, your lack of knowledge about the "system" makes you reach the wrong conclusions.
Ask Phil how much money does he see from the Amazon bargain bins... you may get a (bad) surprise...

[Comtedemeighan]

Digital download is the only way to go. The cost of boxes is just too much for a small company like AGEOD. I can print out the manual myself and burn the game onto a DVD thus saving them money that can be used for making more cool games

[Anguille]

If people are willing to pay for the extra cost of a box (like from Matrix), i don't see a problem.

I would be willing to pay.

As far as i know ROP will be published in Germany shortly and i will get that one.

Vainglory should appeal to more people and should be sold in shops as well. The shop where i always go will surely sell it if available.

[Franciscus]

Again, your lack of knowledge about the "system" makes you reach the wrong conclusions.
Ask Phil how much money does he see from the Amazon bargain bins... you may get a (bad) surprise...

Please, do not try to convince me that it is bad for a company to sell items in Amazon. If true, I am partially responsible for the ruin of several game, book and music publishers.

Again... I will hit with a stick if you tell me HOI3 sold the same than ROP...

I do not know what are the sales of RoP. But in Amazon uk I can tell you what is the ranking of HOI3 (1522 in PC games sells- not exactly a block buster :mdr . AACW is 6124 - and Amazon was never a prefered vehicule for Ageod sales.

As long as we do not know the outcome of the HWLG story... then it doesn't have sense to discuss it.
I have run myself a "family business" and really, it was not profitable at all if it wasn't for our hard work on it (extra hours, etc). That doesn't mean a serious/big company should copy the same behaviour to do a succesfull business.

The story of HWLG is pretty much told. It has been (and still is) developed by a small team consisting essentially of JMM and a few volunteers and betas. JMM is 58 years old and does not do this for a living. This has both advantages - he probably does not care that much if HWLG will "make a profit" - and serious disadvantages - he is only able to work in the game in his spare time. That and his perfectionism (some say madness - :neener was the cause for the long development cycle. The game continues to be improved. Knowing JMM, it probably continue so (albeit at his pace) for a long time.
That business model is rather similar to the recent SoW: Gettysburg. Norb also does not make games for a living, he does it in his spare time. The innovation is that the volunteers that helped throughout the development will aparently also get a share of the profits (if any). Maybe that's the future. As long as "niche" developers and/or their publishers need to have "adequate" profits (and adequate for a publisher is not the same thing as to a indie dev), they are probably doomed to fail.

@Comte: Ageod is no longer such a "small" company. Now it is part of Paradox. Let's wait and see what will be Paradox policy regarding Vicky 2 and VgN distribution. I am prepared to bet that Vicky2 will be available in shelves and in Amazon, Play.com, etc. If so, and VgN does not, do you care to tell me which of the 2 games will have more "success" ?

Regards

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Anguille]

Unfortunately, that isn't the way it usually works out.

What usually happens is that Boxed games are produced and sold in bulk to large distributors. The profit is in the "bulk" sale. The game's programmer/developer(s) do not have control of the final retail sale price and the distributors can lower the game price to the point that they wish. At that point, their boxed game price becomes directly competitive with the Download version of the games undercutting the overall profit of the game's sales.

This is not what i am saying (see my example from Matrix). What i mean is that i am willing to buy a boxed version directly from the developper (in this case Ageod) with the cost difference due to have a box and a dvd.

[Generalisimo]

Please, do not try to convince me that it is bad for a company to sell items in Amazon. If true, I am partially responsible for the ruin of several game, book and music publishers.

Well, again, I will just tell you this... ask PhilT how much money he gets when you buy AACW on the Amazon bargain bin...

I do not know what are the sales of RoP. But in Amazon uk I can tell you what is the ranking of HOI3 (1522 in PC games sells- not exactly a block buster :mdr . AACW is 6124 - and Amazon was never a prefered vehicule for Ageod sales.

This is really getting odd... so, we are considering Amazon THE strategy games platform?
Really, when you could buy HOI3 for $10 back in December on Steam... or the 50% discount on GamersGate... I wonder if the majority of the sales where really on Amazon.
I will bet most of the people went to GamersGate and/or Steam to buy this game...
Anyway, I do not have the total sales numbers for HoI3... but again, do you want to compare both forums? the HOI3 forum and the ROP forum?... we can extrapolate a conclusion from there if you want (not necessarily right, obviously).
By the way, I never said HOI3 was a blockbuster title... AC2, Batman, CODMW2, etc are blockbuster titles.

The story of HWLG is pretty much told. It has been (and still is) developed by a small team consisting essentially of JMM and a few volunteers and betas. JMM is 58 years old and does not do this for a living. This has both advantages - he probably does not care that much if HWLG will "make a profit" - and serious disadvantages - he is only able to work in the game in his spare time. That and his perfectionism (some say madness - :neener was the cause for the long development cycle. The game continues to be improved. Knowing JMM, it probably continue so (albeit at his pace) for a long time.
That business model is rather similar to the recent SoW: Gettysburg. Norb also does not make games for a living, he does it in his spare time. The innovation is that the volunteers that helped throughout the development will aparently also get a share of the profits (if any). Maybe that's the future. As long as "niche" developers and/or their publishers need to have "adequate" profits (and adequate for a publisher is not the same thing as to a indie dev), they are probably doomed to fail.

Ah, ok, so we should all follow the steps of JMM, that made 2 games in his entire life... ( I haven't follow his "game developer life", so correct me if I am wrong please )
No, really... although I respect JMM work and dedication on his "masterpiece", I really preffer developers that do this for a living, so they spent most (if not all) of their time working on games.

@Comte: Ageod is no longer such a "small" company. Now it is part of Paradox. Let's wait and see what will be Paradox policy regarding Vicky 2 and VgN distribution. I am prepared to bet that Vicky2 will be available in shelves and in Amazon, Play.com, etc. If so, and VgN does not, do you care to tell me which of the 2 games will have more "success" ?

Vicky2 will SURELLY be sold just like HoI3 was, you can bet on that.
For VGN, we will have to wait and see...

[Tory Whig]

In another thread an important issue has been discussed, namely the (non) availability of boxed editions for future Ageod games (including RoP). Many probably do not care that much if a DD game is cheaper, and are willing to pay more to have our interests catered for.

I would pay twice the price of the DD version. Just give me the prospect of receiving a beautiful box, with a proper printed and bound color manual, maps and other historic material, game art, and I will do it. To further lure more "enthusiasts", offer a quasi-beta status to those that pre-order: Access to a separate sub-forum, access to game art and music, even access to a beta pre-release version when available, as others do. I may be wrong, of course, but it would only attract more potential buyers.

Well Said!

Just as an FYI for the DD lovers the poll is now, at this writing, 16 who would purchase the Box edition and only 14 who would buy the DD version. That is 53% of a potential market versus only 46% for the DD.

Regards,
Tory Whig

[caranorn]

Well Said!

Just as an FYI for the DD lovers the poll is now, at this writing, 16 who would purchase the Box edition and only 14 who would buy the DD version. That is 53% of a potential market versus only 46% for the DD.

Regards,
Tory Whig

Well 30 votes isn't really a representative sample of the market ;-) ...

And the poll doesn't really address the economic issues. That is the added cost and risk for Ageod. Like it or not, direct download is probably going to be the only way to buy VGN...

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Fatboy]

Exactly what is the attraction of a boxed game?
If it is mainly the printed manual it should be possible to print your own using the pdf manual & one of those online printing services.

[Pocus]

Nothing is decided in a way or another for VGN. This will be AGEOD major, biggest title so far, so perhaps a boxed version will be available from the start ... or perhaps not, we really can't say. Personally a riveted, iron-clad box would fits me well

[lodilefty]

Nothing is decided in a way or another for VGN. This will be AGEOD major, biggest title so far, so perhaps a boxed version will be available from the start ... or perhaps not, we really can't say. Personally a riveted, iron-clad box would fits me well

Get the boxes here:
https://shop.usps.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?storeId=10052&parent_category_rn=10000002&categoryId=10000033&top_category=10000002&langId=-1&catalogId=10001

[vonRocko]

Get the boxes here:
https://shop.usps.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?storeId=10052&parent_category_rn=10000002&categoryId=10000033&top_category=10000002&langId=-1&catalogId=10001

I see "no charge" for the boxes. All you need is a 25 cent cd, charge 10-20 dollars extra, how can you lose money?

[lodilefty]

I see "no charge" for the boxes. All you need is a 25 cent cd, charge 10-20 dollars extra, how can you lose money?

And pay the postage. Typically $5 or more.

And print the manual. "Box-ites" want the manual. One-off = $15 or more B&W, $25+ Color (and thats an unbound 8x11)

And a jewel case....

And 'stuffing' to protect it in an oversized box...

And labor to do this. $10/ hour in Mexico I hear. I charge $60/hour....

And order fulfillment management...

And financial processing costs....

And inventory control if we decide to do any 'economy of scale'

And insurance on the inventory.

And benefits, State and Federal mandatory withholding on salary.

So, send me $100, and I'll crank out a boxed set for you....

...or not.

[vonRocko]

And pay the postage. Typically $5 or more.


So, send me $100, and I'll crank out a boxed set for you....

...or not.

The customer pays shipping on all mail order game sights, so don't give me that.
If your serious I have a Ben Franklin waiting to go!

[lodilefty]

The customer pays shipping on all mail order game sights, so don't give me that.
If your serious I have a Ben Franklin waiting to go!

Not serious. Just trying to shed light on "hidden costs".

The business model here likely is best to be DD, with custom-order premium content boxed set.
The challenge is that either the boxed set is very pricey (cover all costs of inefficient one-at-a-time manufacture and process) or we are back to economy of scale (and how many do we manufacture to gain cost efficiency)

Of course, an entrepreneur could buy, say, 100 licences from Phil and go into a "boxed set generation and resale" business.... and deal with customers if/when the CD is bad, the manual is torn, their Serial gets on the "Pirate" list.....

...now, if you want to send me your bank account number, with your date of birth, SS# and Mother's Maiden name, perhaps I can help you

[vonRocko]

Ok, I surrender! All I really wanted is a disc. It can be in a box or an envelope. Manual or not. My inability to burn downloaded games, no matter what I try, has led to this. I can't understand why limited boxed sets, based on preorders and a minimum amount, can't be produced. Other than the company not wanting to take the time. It is not about profits, it is about not wanting to put the effort in. If they would just admit this, I could understand. But don't try to BS. me about the money involved.
I LOVE ageods games. That is why I even bother too argue. They are brilliant game designers. I am missing ROP, and will surely miss VGN, but I need a physical copy.
You guys have beat me, I will not mention this subject, in these forums, again. I just can't help but feel that paradox has its evil claws behind this decision. After all, ageod had physical copies of all their games, till the merge with them. Coincidence? Probably.
Thank You.

[Franciscus]

Nothing is decided in a way or another for VGN. This will be AGEOD major, biggest title so far, so perhaps a boxed version will be available from the start ... or perhaps not, we really can't say. Personally a riveted, iron-clad box would fits me well

(...)
The business model here likely is best to be DD, with custom-order premium content boxed set.

(...)

Good enough for me ! (and probably for more than half of the poll responders )