Wallachia and Moldavia ? <vassal of ottoman>

[nlancier]

Anyone managed to take city of wallachia which is austrian objective in any of their games ? I tried to declare war to Wallachia but it says <vassal of ottoman> so i declared war to Ottoman, i can move to ottoman territories in game now as i am at war but i cant go to war with wallachia and moldavia ? and i cant move to their regions ? It gives a message: "This region cant be entered (impossible terrain,frozen weather,neutral region,blocked by a fort,wrong water type,surrounded ...)" is there any way to atack these 2 nations ?

edit: i think sorted. Seems after declaring war on Ottoman, Wallachia and Moldavia wait 1 more turn to declare war on you as his vassals.

[Durk]

Interesting Issue:
Yes, as long as they are vassals of another player they do not have an independent life.
In your instance it seems these two vassals are not activating as allies of the Ottomans.
I have not yet picked a fight as Austria with the Ottomans, but if this functions as with other nations, beat the Ottomans and they should unlock.

[Pocus]

Happy to have it sorted then, now to war!

[Captain_Orso]

Just out of curiosity, what animosity levels did you have as Austria against Moldavia?

I'm wondering if you might be able to declare war directly if the Dual-Monarchy had enough excuse.

[nlancier]

It just writes <vassal of ottoman> for Wallachia and Moldavia so you cant have any levels of animosity i think so seems only relation level with Ottoman matters. After 1 turn i go to war with Ottoman i realised i am at war with both Wallachia and Moldavia automatically.

[Captain_Orso]

I've done a lot more simple testing with WON than actually playing, so the true extent of the 'Vassal' status is unknown to me. Wallachia and Moldavia appear to be simply allies. The Ottomans can enter their regions, but not control their units.

With French minor allies, it's the same, but unless I'm mistaken, a major power can DOW a minor ally of France, leaving France to decide to DOW the aggressor, and break their defensive treaty or not. I'm not sure about the status of the factions belonging to the Rhein Bund though. Maybe it's the same, but it does kind of irritate me.

It simply feels incongruent, if Moldavia and Wallachia are bound directly to the Ottomans as Vassals and are forced to follow the political status of the Ottomans with regards to other powers. Why have a secondary step to bring them into war? What if Austria wants to attack Moldavia or Wallachia directly, without having to wait a turn for them to adhere to their defensive treaty/vassal status? It's probably just a minor thing, but it bugs me.

I kind of like the idea of intrigues, and I'd like the ability to degrade relations and make and excuse to go to war with some kind of trumped up excuse. If the Ottomans want to honor their treaties with Moldavia and Wallachia, it should be on them to do that, and not the other way around (Austrian having to DOW the Ottomans, to get to invade Moldavia and Wallachia).

Just my $0.02

[Durk]

Interesting. I view the vassal status as these states are considered as belonging to the Ottoman Empire. Like any other province they can only be taken when and if the Ottoman power is defeated in war. That is, they are not independent states in a treaty relationship with the Ottomans, they have been incorporated into the empire. So any independent diplomacy would be impossible. Consequently, war with the possessor of these territories would be the only way to wrest them from their overlord.

[Citizen X]

Vassal is not a term with just one meaning. In the case of Wallachia it meant a state of suzerainity, wich means they were not only paying tribute while still independent. Their foreign relations were also ruled by the Sublime Porte, too. Their relation was such that they enjoyed certain freedom in domestic affairs. The Porte was in in return obliged to maintain said domestic freedom against aggression from outside. Sorta...

Hope that helps to clarify situation a bit. In reality it was more complicated :P

[Captain_Orso]

It's always more complicated than one expects

The game has a limited ability to represent political situations, which is okay. But my feeling is that the Vassal status doesn't fit as well as it might--that being said, without knowing everything that Vassal status entails.

On the one side, other major powers cannot directly DOW Moldavia and Wallachia, and on the other side Wallachia and Moldavia automatically DOW any faction that DOW'ed the Ottomans. That just feels a bit clunky. Better would be that the note stating that Wallachia and Moldavia are Vassals of the Ottomans, also stated that the Ottomans, Moldavia, and Wallachia all share the same political status, that DOW can only be played on the Ottoman faction, which will cause the DOW'ing faction to be at war with all three. And then DOW'ing the Ottomans should put the issuing faction into war with all three at the same time.

Again, it's probably minor, but it just feel clunky, and more over the information is missing from the message stating that Moldavia and Wallachia are Vassals of the Ottomans.