Sick of supply issues...

[veji1]

Playing a game again with the April 11th patch, war against Austria, Pressburg while my troops are scattered accross Southern Germany from Regensburg and Munich to Passau, Salzburg, Linz and Wien... Now Prussia declares war to Bavaria, I have to counterdow, it's january 1806 and wait a bit before starting campaigning...

I built supply depots quite regularly through southern germany and no not every second province... now when the Pressburg peace happened with Austria it had a few consequences : depots built in somes provinces were then transfered to Bavaria or Wurtemberg, AND I hadn't had time to build a depot in Linz... so there is a whole in the network to Wien... Now in early february for reasons that escape me Austria Dows me (i suppose that my dowing Prussia made the forced peace conditions go away ??)

AND now in mid february, occupying western Asutria with my troops who were wintering there, and I start havin the dreary awful exasperating messages about some unit lacking supplies. Partly I believe because french supply doesn't manage to travel through non french owned depots in ally territory (ie the depots that reverted to Wurtemberg and Bavaria) and partly because in winter supply sometimes doesn't travel past 2 provinces.

Yet I am sick of it. Really I have thought about building many supply depots, I have spread my corps around, I am not moving around campaignin in winter, my troops are for all intent and purposes in their winter quarters... And this f*****g supply thing messes it up.

Does one have to play with easy supply to avoid this mess ?

[Kev_uk]

Why did Austria DOW you after Pressburg?? I never had that happen, although Prussia did declare war on me quite soon after...winter 1805/06. Perhaps you stayed too long in Austrian territory - if you do the Pressburg thing via the decree you only have to pull back over their border, Regensburg/Munich think maybe safe? Ulm, that area. And yes, I had built Depots that were transferred too...but I think you can pull supply anyway? More curious why Austria did that..just after Pressburg?

[veji1]

Why did Austria DOW you after Pressburg?? I never had that happen, although Prussia did declare war on me quite soon after...winter 1805/06. Perhaps you stayed too long in Austrian territory - if you do the Pressburg thing via the decree you only have to pull back over their border, Regensburg/Munich think maybe safe? Ulm, that area. And yes, I had built Depots that were transferred too...but I think you can pull supply anyway? More curious why Austria did that..just after Pressburg?

No clue.. and I hadn't left Austria with some of my corps, waiting for winter to stop !

[Durk]

Once 'peace' is declared, France no longer draws supply from a now neutral nation, staying in a neutral nations provides a DOW.
So win the war and get out of the no longer enemy nation which allow supply in controlled regions, neutral nations do not allow supply. It is important that the treaty be observed.
So even easy supply will not fix your problem of trying to get supply from a nation with whom you have no alliances.

[FelixZ]

Russia observed the following in a PBEM game.


-----------------------


Previously (unknown number of turns) France had offered Austria Pressburg Treaty (via Military Reform/Decree). Austria chose to not accept (again via a Military Reform/Decree).


1805 Dec 8-15


Peace of Pressburg Treaty signed - scripted event. Austria did not accept by Military Reform/Decree. (Red message)


In addition to Venetia, Kingdom of Italy also received Padova, Rovigo, Trevisa, Belluno, Evaclea, Pordenone, Grado and Udine.




Diplomacy screen showing France received passage & supply via the Pressburg Treaty.



[color=#e0edd4]1805 Dec 16-21[/color]
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[color=#e0edd4]No messages relating to Pressburg Treaty.[/color]
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[color=#e0edd4]Austria received a CB against France.[/color]



[color=#e0edd4]1805 Dec 22-31[/color]
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[color=#e0edd4]Austria cancelled passage & supply rights (selected in 1805 Dec 16-21 turn.[/color]



[color=#e0edd4]Passage & supply rights cancelled.[/color]



[color=#e0edd4]1806 Jan 1-7[/color]
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[color=#e0edd4]French stacks in Austrian Territory relocated to:[/color]
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[/color]
[color=#e0edd4]1- Bavarian Territory - Linz & Melk to Passau.[/color]
[color=#e0edd4]2- Bavarian Territory - Dienstadt to Zwiesel.[/color]
[color=#e0edd4]3. Kingdom of Italy - Trieste to Grado.[/color]

[veji1]

Once 'peace' is declared, France no longer draws supply from a now neutral nation, staying in a neutral nations provides a DOW.
So win the war and get out of the no longer enemy nation which allow supply in controlled regions, neutral nations do not allow supply. It is important that the treaty be observed.
So even easy supply will not fix your problem of trying to get supply from a nation with whom you have no alliances.

Sorry but this is beyond ridiculous, it is completely and utterly senseless.

What you are telling me is "NEVER MAKE PEACE IN WINTER", basically always wait for a nice spring before signing peace so tht you can then run for the hills as fast as possible as the lousy victor you are since you don't draw supply from your migthy vanquished foe... It is absurd that the french victorious armies shoulds starve in february in Wien or Salzburg because of this. There is a major logic flaw here.

[veji1]

I mean really as it stands regarding supply this game is only playable either in a permanent state of war or with easy supply on, otherwise except if you play at a 18th century snail pace building depots everywhere and even then you don't know what a freaking peace could do to mess it all up, there is just no way you can be sure supply issues won't muck it all up in such vast desertic wastelands like northern Italy or southern Germany... (gun to the head emoji).

[veji1]

Once 'peace' is declared, France no longer draws supply from a now neutral nation, staying in a neutral nations provides a DOW.
So win the war and get out of the no longer enemy nation which allow supply in controlled regions, neutral nations do not allow supply. It is important that the treaty be observed.
So even easy supply will not fix your problem of trying to get supply from a nation with whom you have no alliances.

Now that I have calmed down, let me get this straight : There used to be after peace was signed an automatic right of passage + supply for the winner, ie he could go through the land and draw supply, for the duration of the peace (ie 24 or 48 turns). Are you telling me it's not the case anymore ? Because this would make no sense.

My fear was more along a lack of supply transport through depots (notably reinforced iin winter) and a problem of not enough supply built in some places like southern germany.

I must say that overall there still seems to be an issue. Why does it feel like Winter in southern Germany/Austria in 1805/1806 is like winter 1941 in front of Moscow ? There might be some excess severity in the weather model, notably the whole Blizzard thing...

[Kev_uk]

I usually go for the kill if I start the August GC. Aim for Wien immediatly. Knock out Macks army in a few turns, that is their main force apart from Karls in Italy, and I can do Pressburg by late Oct/early Nov. Then high tail it out of there, back to the Rhine to prepare for the Prussian adventure, if they havn't DOW'd you already. Aim your Corps back to Strasbourg, quickest route. Even if the harsh weather hits, your supply wagons should cope for a turn or two, and I usually pick up extra after taking all the Austrian cities. I do not see it much of problem, maybe the losses are high, but it does make you plan ahead. Or maybe leave Wien till March/April the following year. Hunker down in your depots and captured cities, etc.

[RebelYell]

I usually go for the kill if I start the August GC. Aim for Wien immediatly. Knock out Macks army in a few turns, that is their main force apart from Karls in Italy, and I can do Pressburg by late Oct/early Nov. Then high tail it out of there, back to the Rhine to prepare for the Prussian adventure, if they havn't DOW'd you already. Aim your Corps back to Strasbourg, quickest route. Even if the harsh weather hits, your supply wagons should cope for a turn or two, and I usually pick up extra after taking all the Austrian cities. I do not see it much of problem, maybe the losses are high, but it does make you plan ahead. Or maybe leave Wien till March/April the following year. Hunker down in your depots and captured cities, etc.

I started my first game with the longest GC, is the August start better for the AI?

It is early August 1805 and I have surrounded and captured 2 Austrian armies for 90.000 men, 1 Prussian army for 20.000 men and 1 Saxon army of 10.000 men.
Add to that the killed men and captured equipment.

The Russians are moving in also but I am positioned to destroy the remaining Prussians and Austrians first before that.

My NM is 188 and I have over 50% of the needed VPs for a win.

Will the whole game end in an automatic victory or will it be able to continue the game and the AI will work?

[vicberg]

Most of these "neutrals" have given France foreign or supply access. The problem is that the engine is stepping on the diplomatic agreement. It require 25% MC in order for supplies to move and the engine isn't ignoring MC when supply access or foreign access exists.

[vicberg]

The problem is that these "neutral" countries have given France foreign or supply access. I believe the issue is that it requires 25% MC in order for supplies to move through a region per the GameLogic.opt. The engine should be ignoring this when there's foreign or supply access and it's not doing that. So supplies aren't moving when they should.

[Pocus]

When you get a supply treaty, you don't get to actually move your supply through their territory, instead they will provide their (sometime meager) supply to you.
If you are allied otoh, it's possible to move your own supply into their territory, but you must have nearby units or a depot in a non-city region.

[RebelYell]

When you get a supply treaty, you don't get to actually move your supply through their territory, instead they will provide their (sometime meager) supply to you.
If you are allied otoh, it's possible to move your own supply into their territory, but you must have nearby units or a depot in a non-city region.

And invasion also works for those that dont want to ally?

[zooter]

I learned early on not to make peace in the winter because of the losses you take. it's just a game strategy; such things are learned by reading the forum. But such things should have been included in the rule book. A war game is never realistic, usually you already know what's going to happen, its just a question of when. You just play the game with in the parameters that the developers used, but like I said those parameters should be explained in the rule book. Of course when things don't work, well that's something different.

[Kev_uk]

I think the supply mechanism needs to be explained better - I had a load of depots throughout Prussia, an open supply line (at great cost to keep a non-interrupted green corridor, military control above 50%), and had to winter quarter in Danzig (big size 4 depot) after I had taken it, plus Warsaw too. But come February, the supply was non-existent even though I could trace a clear 'green' route back to the west (and the depots interspersed on that route). It is brutal and I fail now to understand it properly.

[RebelYell]

I think the supply mechanism needs to be explained better - I had a load of depots throughout Prussia, an open supply line (at great cost to keep a non-interrupted green corridor, military control above 50%), and had to winter quarter in Danzig (big size 4 depot) after I had taken it, plus Warsaw too. But come February, the supply was non-existent even though I could trace a clear 'green' route back to the west (and the depots interspersed on that route). It is brutal and I fail now to understand it properly.

What was the supply route to Prussia you used?

[Kev_uk]

Two: One from Stettin in the North, across the marshes via Kolberg to Danzig - had to devote a whole Corps to keep it open (or open it), the other via Frankfurt, to Polsen/Lodz to Warsaw, then open up the territory from Thorn to Danzig. Open routes, but come Feb - the Grande Armee in Danzig were dying....eventually during March/April I forced the Tilset Treaty, but the cost was immense!

[RebelYell]

Two: One from Stettin in the North, across the marshes via Kolberg to Danzig - had to devote a whole Corps to keep it open (or open it), the other via Frankfurt, to Polsen/Lodz to Warsaw, then open up the territory from Thorn to Danzig. Open routes, but come Feb - the Grande Armee in Danzig were dying....eventually during March/April I forced the Tilset Treaty, but the cost was immense!

So they where all major roads/harbors between your depots? I dont have the map now to check.

Did you have transports in the North Sea box btw? Do they survive there?

[Kev_uk]

Nope, the British Navy have decimated my fleet (started in Aug. 1805), so nothing on the high seas in my game for a while. I was pulling no supply in any depot during those winter months. It was painful. I have to rebuild some Corps and make new divisions.

[RebelYell]

Nope, the British Navy have decimated my fleet (started in Aug. 1805), so nothing on the high seas in my game for a while. I was pulling no supply in any depot during those winter months. It was painful. I have to rebuild some Corps and make new divisions.

Do you think there was a viable path for the supply to move from France?

Even without any possible issues in the games supply system there might come a time when you need to manually go and fill some supply trains in depots, yours or allies, so you should build those enough to shuffle them a bit.
Also build some field hospitals to help keep cohesion, the further east you go in Europe the worse it gets for foraging.

Also disperse you Corps for the winter a bit and not keep them in the same regions. It is a tricky business, the Russians tried to take advantage of this in real life by attacking one corps in Poland foraging separated from the others.

Btw there are actually historical units in the game that are supposed to guard your supply trains and secure your LOC in general.

The dragons à pied (foot dragoons) start in Murats cavalry corps as a division, actually slowing it down so get them out of there as they dont have horses.

[Kev_uk]

Right, all good points, many of which I never realised. Much depth to the game, a lot I do not know. Well, supply I assume coming from France to the conquered territory in West Prussia, like Berlin, Magdeburg, Dresden (which was actually under Saxony control...maybe thats the issue, but they were cordial to me seeing as I liberated them from Prussia...but I assumed I could get supply from Saxony?) I had dispersed apart from two Corps plus Napoleon in Danzig, Ney and Lannes, Soult in Kolberg trying to keep a green corridor, and one in Lodz and Warsaw before I made the Duchy of Warsaw Pact. Well, the game is a learning process...easy at the start with Austria to pull back from Vienna before the harsh weather, but MUCH harder over-extended in Eastern Europe. And yes, good points about creating more supply wagons - never did that - over-optimistic.

[RebelYell]

Right, all good points, many of which I never realised. Much depth to the game, a lot I do not know. Well, supply I assume coming from France to the conquered territory in West Prussia, like Berlin, Magdeburg, Dresden (which was actually under Saxony control...maybe thats the issue, but they were cordial to me seeing as I liberated them from Prussia...but I assumed I could get supply from Saxony?) I had dispersed apart from two Corps plus Napoleon in Danzig, Ney and Lannes, Soult in Kolberg trying to keep a green corridor, and one in Lodz and Warsaw before I made the Duchy of Warsaw Pact. Well, the game is a learning process...easy at the start with Austria to pull back from Vienna before the harsh weather, but MUCH harder over-extended in Eastern Europe. And yes, good points about creating more supply wagons - never did that - over-optimistic.

Well I am learning also, first game going, this forum is a great place to exchange experiences.

I am not yet played in to the winter and tested how the supply flows for me, I am reading just these reports there is an possible issue with supply flow trough allies.
There should not be a need to build huge amounts of supply trains (exception being Russian invasion naturally), they are expensive so capture is the preferred method of getting them.

There is an issue if the French need them a lot in Central Europe.

[vicberg]

This all may be true, but reducing the MC requirement from 25 down to 0 solved the supply issues in the mod. You still need depots. You still need to make a solid supply chain, but supplies move through neutrals and don't move through countries at war with you. I still have to disburse multiple corp in the same location. The MC rule still comes into play concerning how much supply moves through the region. So it works.

I personally don't want to take this route of reducing MC requirements, but I see little choice. Supply passage rights imply that supply should pass THROUGH the neutral. I'd like to keep the 25% requirement providing supplies could actually move through those regions, but as stated above, they aren't.

[Mickey3D]

When you get a supply treaty, you don't get to actually move your supply through their territory, instead they will provide their (sometime meager) supply to you.
If you are allied otoh, it's possible to move your own supply into their territory, but you must have nearby units or a depot in a non-city region.

Why not change the logic ? When allied, the cities would be considered as your own (i.e. suply move between them and can be stored in them). If alliance ends then too bad, you lose the supply accumulated in the cities.

[veji1]

When you get a supply treaty, you don't get to actually move your supply through their territory, instead they will provide their (sometime meager) supply to you.
If you are allied otoh, it's possible to move your own supply into their territory, but you must have nearby units or a depot in a non-city region.

This is the key problem : If you are playing the French particularly, but really any major, you could potentially have a humongous number of troops being stationned in a limited amount of space in the territory of an ally or neutral with supply treaty. The game should be able to support that provided : Your army has the proper supply capabilities (you have many chariots, there are supply depots leading to where you are stationned) AND the land is rich enough, ie having many troops waiting in Bavaria to invade Austria should be ok if your supply network works, not so in the middle of Belarus where the land is considerably poorer.

I understand there might be engine issues, but then the work needs to be done to alter the engine or this game will only be playable with a considerably toned down supply model akin to easy supply. It shouldn't be up to guys like Vicberg fiddling around with their modding skills to find a solution.