veji1
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1271
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:27 pm

Corps destroyed in Tilsit peace, this mess is annoying

Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:19 pm

So I have played more than 90 turns in a GC, this is a big game, you put lots of hours into playing it, you don't want to keep restarting a GC right ? So I got the Duchy of Warsaw event and my troops are teleported away before being allowed back in. Makes no sense whatsoever but at least nothing catastrophic. Now I conquer Konigsberg with Suchet's Corps (5th corps) and it allows me to start the Tilsit sequence. And what happens when Tilsit happens ? All corps in Prussia are thrown away, I even end up with Marmont's corps on a danish island in the Baltic.. But SUchet gets destroyed...

This is ridiculous. I don't want to be rude but what on earth did the beta testers do ??? The PRessburg / Tilsit sequences are the vary basis of the game, they take place in the first 15% of the game, end to see them botched to such extent is mind boggling... units teleported left and right, unexplained delays before provinces are transfered, etc.. This is just fantastically annoying.

vicberg
AGEod Grognard
Posts: 968
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:18 am

Sat Jan 09, 2016 3:58 pm

Go to the tilsitsigned event (PRU Peaces.sct, I believe) and add under the ACTIONS

SelectFaction = 'PRU'
SettleWhitePeace = ALL

Rerun turn. Your problem will go away.

Adam the VIth
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Location: Pennsylvania Indian Country

Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:19 pm

veji1 wrote:...
This is ridiculous. I don't want to be rude but what on earth did the beta testers do ??? The PRessburg / Tilsit sequences are the vary basis of the game, they take place in the first 15% of the game, end to see them botched to such extent is mind boggling... units teleported left and right, unexplained delays before provinces are transfered, etc.. This is just fantastically annoying.


Veji1: your comment on Pressburg/Tilsit is particularly noteworthy. I am a big fan of AGEOD, but I have to admit that this release seems to have been premature. I will assume that "higher powers" forced the release before the game was ready. I hate having to buy a game and then say "I'll wait three months until they fix it." From now on, I'll wait to buy it until the price is reduced and their revenue will go down.

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Montbrun
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Location: Raleigh, NC

Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:45 pm

veji1 wrote:So I have played more than 90 turns in a GC, this is a big game, you put lots of hours into playing it, you don't want to keep restarting a GC right ? So I got the Duchy of Warsaw event and my troops are teleported away before being allowed back in. Makes no sense whatsoever but at least nothing catastrophic. Now I conquer Konigsberg with Suchet's Corps (5th corps) and it allows me to start the Tilsit sequence. And what happens when Tilsit happens ? All corps in Prussia are thrown away, I even end up with Marmont's corps on a danish island in the Baltic.. But SUchet gets destroyed...

This is ridiculous. I don't want to be rude but what on earth did the beta testers do ??? The PRessburg / Tilsit sequences are the vary basis of the game, they take place in the first 15% of the game, end to see them botched to such extent is mind boggling... units teleported left and right, unexplained delays before provinces are transfered, etc.. This is just fantastically annoying.


I had three CORPS evaporate when the Tilsit Event fired - that's when I quit playing the game, and am waiting for comprehensive patches fixing this stuff.

vicberg
AGEod Grognard
Posts: 968
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:18 am

Sat Jan 09, 2016 4:56 pm

Our PBEM (and shameless plug for WONV AAR) is on hold. The retreat issue (see Battle Casualties Way too High Yet Again thread) is a showstopper. Modifications to the configuration files have no affect. Also reviewing artillery damage and cohesion done (another issue raised in same thread).

veji1
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1271
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:27 pm

Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:07 pm

I am a big contributor to this game forum, I bought the game straightaway and have probably played 200+ turns already. I like the game and what it could be but I am utterly frustrated by some basic issues on this game and to be honest I am even more upset that most of the exchanges on which solutions could be found are with fellow players like Vicberg rather than with the devs. There should alread have been 20 or more posts by Pocus or Philthib on the battle casualties thread. Where are they ? Nowhere to be seen. There might be very good reasons but it's frustrating.

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fred zeppelin
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Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:20 pm

veji1 wrote: I am even more upset that most of the exchanges on which solutions could be found are with fellow players like Vicberg rather than with the devs. There should alread have been 20 or more posts by Pocus or Philthib on the battle casualties thread. Where are they ? Nowhere to be seen. There might be very good reasons but it's frustrating.


Agreed. My main gripe about these guys for years has been that they consistently approach their business like amateurs - like this is some sort of paid hobby that they expect us to subsidize.

If they won't help themselves and they won't help you guys help them, then I don't see how they can expect this to have a good ending.

vicberg
AGEod Grognard
Posts: 968
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:18 am

Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:24 pm

AGEOD is 2-3 people and a lot of volunteers. Who knows the pressure they received to release this and generate more revenue for their parent. Releasing in December and then taking time off for Christmas (totally understandable) was another questionable decision. A premature release is one thing. A premature before Christmas with planned time off is another thing altogether.

I can't speak for the lack of response. They have a lot of committed people answering questions and helping identify potential problems for them. I'd expect a bit more from them, but for all we know, they might be hard at work fixing things and don't want to take time to post on the forum.

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fred zeppelin
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Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:35 pm

vicberg wrote:I can't speak for the lack of response. They have a lot of committed people answering questions and helping identify potential problems for them. I'd expect a bit more from them, but for all we know, they might be hard at work fixing things and don't want to take time to post on the forum.


It takes five minutes to post an acknowledgment of the problems/proposed solutions folks are discussing here. Apart from being basic business sense, it's also just common courtesy. We are, after all, the core of their dwindling fan base.

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JacquesDeLalaing
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Location: Vienna (Austria)

Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:43 pm

Well, I don't speak for the devs and I have no deeper relationship to them at all - I'm just another forum user. This is just my opinion: we're in a niche of a niche of a niche and I think that the ageod fan-crowd is very small. I assume you can count the people who have a basic understanding of all the aspects of the engine on two hands. I'm glad that AGEOD even exists. There is no alternative and it's unlikely that there will be any alternative any time soon. For most of the "obscure" (from an anglo-american point of view) conflicts that are covered by ageods titles, there exist no games (of a serious, historically inspired approach). And in the few cases in which there are alternatives (Napoleon is obviously one of them) there are hardly any games out there that offer the operational scale (although I'm sad that they're not making more of it, going smaller rather than larger) or that can compare to the depth of ageod's engine. The engine itself is wonderfull (okay, there is a bug, but still) and in my eyes very flexible. But I think that it could be used better on a slightly different scale (that's why I'm trying to come up with my own mod).

So I would see my relationship to ageod more as a relationship of hobby and similar interest (and the price is ridicolous compared to what I personally get out of the games) rather than a consumer-realtionship. In a grognards' world, there are no alternatives. Just a common goal and interest. I understand if people approach the whole thing more from a consumer-perspective though, even if it makes me a bit sad. If you're into it and understand the potential of the engine, you'll stay and help to improve things. If you're just fed up with bugs and were expect a very stable (I don't dare to say perfect ;) ) "product" then you're entitled to be angry and might or might not come back in a few weeks or months until most of it is fixed.
[CENTER][color="#A52A2A"] S I L E S I A I N R U P T A[/color]
- a work-in-progress mod for Rise of Prussia - [/CENTER]

vicberg
AGEod Grognard
Posts: 968
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:18 am

Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:46 pm

I understand the frustration, but again, we don't know what's going on behind the scenes.

PhilThib mentioned that they will be getting a new engine from Slitherine. That implies that they aren't even in control of their own engine. If that's true, then they are doing their best to work around something that's out of their control. If their engine isn't under their control, their deliverable dates may not be either and it wasn't their choice. They couldn't possibly admit that in a public forum without violating about 1000 non-disclosure agreements.

See what I mean? We have no idea what's going on and our frustrations may be with the wrong people. It also means that our frustrations should be with Slitherine and focused on their websites rather than AGEOD.

EDIT: They may also be under limitations in terms of what they can or can't say on forums as dictated by the parent.

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fred zeppelin
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Sat Jan 09, 2016 5:56 pm

JacquesDeLalaing wrote:So I would see my relationship to ageod more as a relationship of hobby and similar interest (and the price is ridicolous compared to what I personally get out of the games) rather than a consumer-realtionship. In a grognards' world, there are no alternatives. Just a common goal and interest.


AGEOD has been banking on that relationship for years. (I've been one who buys their games mostly to support them.) But I question whether they can survive as a business catering only to a few dozen diehards who will forgive them almost anything. At some point, they have to step up and deliver a product that justifies the price they are charging. And ignoring the folks here who are trying to help them certainly isn't a step in the right direction.

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lukasberger
AGEod Veteran
Posts: 782
Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:59 pm

Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:03 pm

fred zeppelin wrote:AGEOD has been banking on that relationship for years. (I've been one who buys their games mostly to support them.) But I question whether they can survive as a business catering only to a few dozen diehards who will forgive them almost anything. At some point, they have to step up and deliver a product that justifies the price they are charging. And ignoring the folks here who are trying to help them certainly isn't a step in the right direction.


How do you have any idea how many people actually buy their games and whether that number is rising or falling? You're assuming that their entire customer base feels exactly the same way you do, and I'd guess that's unlikely to be the case.

I do some work for a different video game company with an even more active forum than this one, different genre but a similarly niche game though seemingly a bit of a bigger company, and I've been told by the developer that 95%+ of the people who buy games never even create a forum account or install a mod. They just buy the game and play it.

I actually think part of the problem here is that the forums create an echo chamber that distorts the reality of how games are perceived. The sort of folks like us who are serious enough about the game to spend a great deal of time on the forums, and gripe publicly and repeatedly are almost certainly not representative of most users. We're a niche group within a niche group in a niche game. If AGEOD only listed to us, they'd starve because they'd never release a game that wasn't perfect.

We're the nuts who care too much and have incredibly high expectations. Most people just want a game to play that they can have some fun with and aren't going to get too worked up about a few glitches, so long as the game is generally enjoyable to them, which AGEOD games always are imo.

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fred zeppelin
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Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:05 pm

vicberg wrote:I understand the frustration, but again, we don't know what's going on behind the scenes.



When I was young, I worked in a fast-food place. We had a really good manager. He told us that when things are busiest, when you have the most customers waiting in line, that's when it's most important to communicate -- to tell the folks who are waiting that you know they're waiting in line to give you their money and that you'll be there to help them soon.

He understood that folks will be patient and reward hard work so long as you communicate with them; all they really want to know is that you know they exist. Among the best advice I've ever received.

These guys need such a manager.

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fred zeppelin
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Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:12 pm

lukasberger wrote:How do you have any idea how many people actually buy their games and whether that number is rising or falling?



There was a grand total of five - five!!!! - posts yesterday on the WoN board on the Matrix site. The number of folks posting here - concerning a game that should be AGEOD's flagship - is barely a couple dozen.

Perhaps there's a growing horde of silent AGEOD customers out there happily playing away ignoring crashes, patches with faulty install paths, endless turn times, aimlessly wandering units, events that don't fire, disappearing corps and crazy-ridiculous combat results. Maybe. But I seriously doubt it.

Silence sometimes speaks loudest of all.

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lukasberger
AGEod Veteran
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Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:14 pm

fred zeppelin wrote:Perhaps there's a growing horde of silent AGEOD customers out there happily playing away ignoring crashes, patches with faulty install paths, endless turn times, aimlessly wandering units, events that don't fire, disappearing corps and crazy-ridiculous combat results. Maybe. But I seriously doubt it.


There are almost certainly are though, read the rest of my post.

I've also been playing happily away and not had any crashes or issues installing patches and my turns are incredibly fast. Of course I also have a decent PC that I keep in good shape. If you don't, that's not AGEOD's fault.

The other stuff, yeah there's some of that, but it's not preventing me from enjoying the game anyway. I'll enjoy it much more once that stuff gets sorted, and yes some of it is quite irritating, but I'm still enjoying it now. I never expected it to be perfect out of the box and I don't think most other people did either.

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lukasberger
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Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:17 pm

Actually so far as that goes, I posted some leader pic mods when the game was first released and I believe that some of them have been downloaded over 600 times now.

veji1
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1271
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:27 pm

Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:39 pm

Look guys the point here isnt market size or level of polish. The point is that a key element of the early game is broken. Let's not get sidetracked. This is just not normal. Wandering units, long term balance, etc fair enough. Tilsit or pressburg broken, not normal, period.

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fred zeppelin
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Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:00 pm

lukasberger wrote:Actually so far as that goes, I posted some leader pic mods when the game was first released and I believe that some of them have been downloaded over 600 times now.


That's good to hear. Perhaps the lack of traffic here - compared to the heavy traffic after the release of TEAW - is not significant.

I like these guys as much as the rest of you - I promise - but I just think the time is long past when we help them best by inventing excuses for them. Having followed their games closely from the beginning (I had a different forum name pre-CW2 before the forum ate my account), I've seen this train wreck approaching for some time - their engine is poorly coded and increasingly overburdened by new features that sound great on the box but that the engine can't handle. And Pocus has been reduced to just stamping out brush fires instead of really advancing the games. And my instinct is that their fan base is dwindling.

I think we can apologize them out of existence. Better to tell them to wake up.

Taillebois
General
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Location: Nr GCHQ Cheltenham

Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:09 pm

Well I just can't get this game crash. I've tried it on four machines.

Sirlion
Private
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Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2015 10:35 pm

Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:16 pm

JacquesDeLalaing wrote:Well, I don't speak for the devs and I have no deeper relationship to them at all - I'm just another forum user. This is just my opinion: we're in a niche of a niche of a niche and I think that the ageod fan-crowd is very small. I assume you can count the people who have a basic understanding of all the aspects of the engine on two hands. I'm glad that AGEOD even exists. There is no alternative and it's unlikely that there will be any alternative any time soon. For most of the "obscure" (from an anglo-american point of view) conflicts that are covered by ageods titles, there exist no games (of a serious, historically inspired approach). And in the few cases in which there are alternatives (Napoleon is obviously one of them) there are hardly any games out there that offer the operational scale (although I'm sad that they're not making more of it, going smaller rather than larger) or that can compare to the depth of ageod's engine. The engine itself is wonderfull (okay, there is a bug, but still) and in my eyes very flexible. But I think that it could be used better on a slightly different scale (that's why I'm trying to come up with my own mod).

So I would see my relationship to ageod more as a relationship of hobby and similar interest (and the price is ridicolous compared to what I personally get out of the games) rather than a consumer-realtionship. In a grognards' world, there are no alternatives. Just a common goal and interest. I understand if people approach the whole thing more from a consumer-perspective though, even if it makes me a bit sad. If you're into it and understand the potential of the engine, you'll stay and help to improve things. If you're just fed up with bugs and were expect a very stable (I don't dare to say perfect ;) ) "product" then you're entitled to be angry and might or might not come back in a few weeks or months until most of it is fixed.


Dude. Let me get this straight: I paid 40 Euro for this stuff. Yes, this "stuff", at this point I cant call it any other way. This pile of unfinished code. Today I tried to play a GC as France and crashed at turn 20 and tried to stay positive anyway. Played again on a smaller scale, Austrian side. Crashed, cards ovelapping onto each other, titles missing. Okay, enough I said, I'll be patient yet again. But comments like these, just make me so angry I cant even begin to describe it. I dont care if we are a niche of a niche, and if you may or may not be the devs' best bud. This is not acceptable. This is a customer-developer relationship and we use real money to "play" this mess of a pseudo-game. I can be a fan of the company, I can be a fan of the era, I can be understanding. The fact remains. This is a mess and I, as many here, paid to be a betatester. No. Pressure or not, this is not how you do it. Even if they are the last and only one that produce games of this depth, I cannot let them do whatever they please just because of it. I dont expect a "very stable" game, I expect to be able to play it.

Taillebois
General
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Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:01 pm

Have you played all the short scenarios all the way through from each side?

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JacquesDeLalaing
Colonel
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Location: Vienna (Austria)

Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:18 pm

Sirlion wrote:Dude. Let me get this straight: I paid 40 Euro for this stuff. Yes, this "stuff", at this point I cant call it any other way. This pile of unfinished code. Today I tried to play a GC as France and crashed at turn 20 and tried to stay positive anyway. Played again on a smaller scale, Austrian side. Crashed, cards ovelapping onto each other, titles missing. Okay, enough I said, I'll be patient yet again. But comments like these, just make me so angry I cant even begin to describe it. I dont care if we are a niche of a niche, and if you may or may not be the devs' best bud. This is not acceptable. This is a customer-developer relationship and we use real money to "play" this mess of a pseudo-game. I can be a fan of the company, I can be a fan of the era, I can be understanding. The fact remains. This is a mess and I, as many here, paid to be a betatester. No. Pressure or not, this is not how you do it. Even if they are the last and only one that produce games of this depth, I cannot let them do whatever they please just because of it. I dont expect a "very stable" game, I expect to be able to play it.


As I've said I understand why people might be angry. No need to get personal. I'm not your dude and by no means the devs best bud. Still I have my own opinion and you have yours. I would prefer too if everyone was happy with WON.
[CENTER][color="#A52A2A"] S I L E S I A I N R U P T A[/color]

- a work-in-progress mod for Rise of Prussia - [/CENTER]

Sirlion
Private
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Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2015 10:35 pm

Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:29 pm

JacquesDeLalaing wrote:As I've said I understand why people might be angry. No need to get personal. I'm not your dude and by no means the devs best bud. Still I have my own opinion and you have yours. I would prefer too if everyone was happy with WON.


Apologies, it was a generalized "you", I'm not a native english speaker. I dont want to get personal with anybody here really, I'd love to not be angry and just relax with my armies in Bavaria.

veji1
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1271
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:27 pm

Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:32 pm

Taillebois wrote:Have you played all the short scenarios all the way through from each side?


This is not the point and you know it. Again that there should be many balancing issues, that many leaders shouldn't have portraits, etc. All this is not ideal but understandable in a small niche industry from a small studio. Even the battle casualty issue I could understand, if at least the devs deigned acknowledge the issue and say "we want to work on it with you guys". But that the Pressburg and Tilsit peace events be completely out of whack, that they cause absurd teletransportation, that they destroy troops, this is absurd, makes no sense and make me question the beta process.

I remember this thread by colonel Marbot were he litteraly says, as a beta tester, that he didn't bother accept the Pressburg treaty "because the offer was inadequate" and just kept on playing. This is not beta-testing !!!

All other issues with the game I can get over and be patient with, battle casualties, wandering units, decaying british fleet, fear for replayability because I don't see how AI Prussia or Austria can properly rebuild their troops after having been utterly trashed by a player, etc...

BUT THE PRESSBURG / TILSIT MESS IS JUST NOT ACCEPTABLE.

This should have been beta tested to death, I mean come on they are like the 2 first big sequences in the game !!!

I am left speechless that we here again the same old tired debates about small studio, etc.. This cannot excuse the Pressburg / Tilsit mess. many small issues, balance issues, chrome issues, yes. but the Pressburg / Tilsit mess no way.

veji1
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1271
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:27 pm

Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:51 pm

vicberg wrote:Go to the tilsitsigned event (PRU Peaces.sct, I believe) and add under the ACTIONS

SelectFaction = 'PRU'
SettleWhitePeace = ALL

Rerun turn. Your problem will go away.


Tried this, just added and it did'nt work. Should I maybe put that before the french action :
SelectFaction = FRA
SelectFaction = FRA
SettleWhitePeace = PRU

Or maybe just suppress the french action as the prussian action (peace with everybody) will just cover it ?

veji1
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1271
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 6:27 pm

Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:01 pm

veji1 wrote:Tried this, just added and it did'nt work. Should I maybe put that before the french action :
SelectFaction = FRA
SelectFaction = FRA
SettleWhitePeace = PRU

Or maybe just suppress the french action as the prussian action (peace with everybody) will just cover it ?


Sniff, great emotion, it worked after deleting the french bit... I want to thank Vicberg, my parents, my son, my lawyer, my accountant, my agent, of course my tax adviser as well and all involved for this fantastic and emotional success...

vicberg
AGEod Grognard
Posts: 968
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:18 am

Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:06 pm

Wrong way. Flip it

Select Faction = 'PRU'
SelectWhitePeace = 'ALL'

or

SelectFaction = 'PRU'
SelectWhitePeace = 'FRA'

vicberg
AGEod Grognard
Posts: 968
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:18 am

Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:07 pm

veji1 wrote:Sniff, great emotion, it worked after deleting the french bit... I want to thank Vicberg, my parents, my son, my lawyer, my accountant, my agent, of course my tax adviser as well and all involved for this fantastic and emotional success...


You forgot to thank the Academy.

vicberg
AGEod Grognard
Posts: 968
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:18 am

Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:08 pm

Sirlion wrote:Apologies, it was a generalized "you", I'm not a native english speaker. I dont want to get personal with anybody here really, I'd love to not be angry and just relax with my armies in Bavaria.


Play the game on Xanax. That works

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