Haresus
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Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:36 pm

MarshalJean wrote:I'm sorry, but there is too much in this post that just doesn't add up. First of all, the release weeks are not "wasted." A lot of us have had fun, we've found problems with a VERY complicated game that the devs are going to fix, tomorrow, I think I saw in another thread...less than two weeks after release. Second, no one is being silenced. Disagreement is not the same as disenfranchisement. Learn the difference. If the devs wanted to, all those offering critiques could be banned from the forum. That would constitute being silenced. Thirdly, no one is saying that critique isn't justified. No one. Not even the devs! They KNOW their product has problems. They always know it when they release it. They are a very small team making very complicated games. What works on their computers sometimes doesn't on someone else's, and the reasons for a particular problem can be manifold and hard to find, as vicberg well knows. Finally, you can't try to be the "voice of reason" in a debate and call "scam" accusations "hyperbole" and then in the same sentence accuse the devs of "trying to trick people into buying something." What do you think a scam is? Tricking people for financial gain is probably a decent definition. So which is it? A scam, or not? Those involved in trickery and scamming don't stick around to fix products in the few days following a sale. They're gone and covering their tracks. So let's stop with this.

All of this to say, we all agree that the game has problems. Those who have played AGEOD for a while knew when they bought the game that they were buying an extremely complex game developed by a very few people that would need a patch (and would get one!) within a couple of weeks. Their expectations are being met. Those unfamiliar with AGEOD (and maybe a lot of other games in this genre, possibly) were expecting a game with very few problems right out of the box. Their expectations have not been met and they are therefore upset. This is about expectations and knowledge of a product and its development that we each bring to the buying/playing process. I think we can all agree that what we have is unlike any other Napoleonic game and therefore is a great achievement. We can all agree that it has significant problems that need to be addressed quickly. We can all agree that based on past performance, the devs will address these problems quickly (in the next couple days, I believe it has been said). And we can all agree that this great game will only get better. What we can't seem to quite agree on is how much patience adults should have...a virtue we seem to be lacking way too much of.


Aight, this will require some explaining:
1. They are "wasted" in the sense that if they had released the game after creating the patch, instead of the other way around, they would have sold more copies faster because fewer of these issues would be happening. I have never said that the game can not be fun or playable.

2. The silencing was in reference to the idea of some fans that we should forget about some of the current, hopefully temporary, faults in the game because it has "potential" or because "it will all be fixed soon!". Statements such as this shows the problem:
"I wonder how many prospective game buyers have visited this forum, interested in this wonderful new game, and have been scared off by all the premature pronouncements of "unplayable, " "broken," "un-tested" and a "scam." And the tragedy here is that by reducing sales, we are hurting the chance of getting expansion kits for this incredible game." The majority of critique does not talk about the game being "unplayable" or "scam", but there are certain things that ARE broken in the game and denying it is an attempt to silence critique. And people should not buy in order to maybe get an expansion later on, but to enjoy what is currently released.

3. So no, I do not accuse the developers of silencing anyone. I think the developers are working hard to get this patch out, and that is admirable. I am looking forward to the upcoming patch with joy.

4. Nor do I accuse the devs of tricking people into buying something, in fact there has been a lack of advertising for this game all over the place.

5. I agree with everything in your second paragraph except for the patience bit. It is not about patience, it is a good business decision to release a polished product because that gives a good first impression. I understand that AGEOD is not a large company, but it would be great for all customers if there is a bit less of this in future releases.

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fred zeppelin
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Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:23 pm

AGEOD has developed a reputation for making games that look fantastic on release but don't play as intended until after several patches. Folks by now tend to know that going in.

Boomer
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Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:24 am

fred zeppelin wrote:AGEOD has developed a reputation for making games that look fantastic on release but don't play as intended until after several patches. Folks by now tend to know that going in.


To be fair, that statement covers about 90% of gaming publishers and developers. The term 'gone gold' isn't used much any more.

Aurelin
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Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:30 am

My 1898 edition of Moltke's Franco-German War came with so many pages uncut it was unreadable.

Volume 23 of the Richard Bolitho series has no page 107. It goes 106, 108,108, 109.

Volume 12 of the same is missing a paragraph that an older edition had.

I think it's silly to expect a "polished" computer game when centuries of book printing is not error free. (Not that they don't strive for it, but errors are inevitable.)

To say nothing of some SSI games, like USAAF, that let you reset the options at every save game load. Or their Amiga port of their Gettysburg game. (Couldn't play the 2nd day scenario being that every unit you clicked on teleported across the map.....

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fred zeppelin
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Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:06 am

Aurelin wrote:My 1898 edition of Moltke's Franco-German War came with so many pages uncut it was unreadable.

Volume 23 of the Richard Bolitho series has no page 107. It goes 106, 108,108, 109.

Volume 12 of the same is missing a paragraph that an older edition had.

I think it's silly to expect a "polished" computer game when centuries of book printing is not error free. (Not that they don't strive for it, but errors are inevitable.)

To say nothing of some SSI games, like USAAF, that let you reset the options at every save game load. Or their Amiga port of their Gettysburg game. (Couldn't play the 2nd day scenario being that every unit you clicked on teleported across the map.....


My brand new Decisive Campaigns: Barbarossa was both highly polished and wonderfully playable (and wildly unique to boot), all out of the box. Designed by a two-man team. Where there's a will....

Aurelin
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Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:37 am

fred zeppelin wrote:My brand new Decisive Campaigns: Barbarossa was both highly polished and wonderfully playable (and wildly unique to boot), all out of the box. Designed by a two-man team. Where there's a will....


Not according to some of the critics. And I doubt it is as complex as WON. No diplomacy. Only two sides. No building units, etc.

By the way, I'm playing it :)

And it's been patched.

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fred zeppelin
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Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:02 am

Aurelin wrote:Not according to some of the critics. And I doubt it is as complex as WON. No diplomacy. Only two sides. No building units, etc.

By the way, I'm playing it :)


Complex is good only if it works.

Birth of America was AGEOD's Decisive Campaigns: Barbarossa - a wonderfully original game that the AI could actually play. Since then, they've increasingly tried to shoe-horn the engine into eras or tack on strategic features that the AI just can't handle.

WoN is a wise step back into an era better suited to the AGEOD engine than the more modern-era games. But WoN relies heavily on strategy features that frankly none of the AGEOD games handle well. We'll see.

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loki100
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Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:49 am

TJD wrote:The purpose of this forum isn't to pump the game or flatter AGEOD. It's a place for open discussion. I think most of the criticisms of the game have been entirely appropriate and useful. I don't think criticism of the AI has been preponderant. Rather, errors in scripting seem to have been the focus, especially in Vicberg's excellent posts. As for the charge that the game is a scam, all games and game companies see this sort of stupid slander on their forums. That's a cost of doing business and running an open forum. So let's not make more of it than it is and fall into some sort of timid self-censure. Ageod needs more vicbergs, please, not more congratulations.


well if you think a thread going on about scams is that useful then fine.

fred zeppelin wrote:AGEOD has developed a reputation for making games that look fantastic on release but don't play as intended until after several patches. Folks by now tend to know that going in.


you know something. I find this, and related threads so damn depressing. Its actually getting to the stage where I have no enthusiasm to visit the web site, never mind bother trying to help people out. or, indeed, indicate concerns and possible solutions.
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veji1
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Tue Dec 15, 2015 12:07 pm

loki100 wrote:you know something. I find this, and related threads so damn depressing. Its actually getting to the stage where I have no enthusiasm to visit the web site, never mind bother trying to help people out. or, indeed, indicate concerns and possible solutions.


Loki, I bought the game straight away, have already played i'd say a good 150 turns. I really like the look and feel of the game and will hopefully play it for as long as I did AACW (which was close to 7 years of playing on and off !). But allow me to be legitimately bummed that really straightforward issues like the Pressburg treaty mechanics or the fast decaying british fleets (issues that arise in the first 15/20 turns of play in the august GC !!!) were not weeded out properly. Of course beta process isn't comprehensive, and that things could derail progressively as the game goes by in 1807 or later, would be perfectly normal. The game is mouthwateringly tempting and will be great, but there were some really annoying bugs and gameplay issues that just shouldn't have been there.

The good thing, and the important thing, is that the devs and players (thanks Vicberg :!!) are reacting fast and many issues will be weeded out by year end and when I have more time to play again in early 2016, the game will be awesome !

Technopiper
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Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:14 am

Unquestioning loyalty can be harmful to a product genre. Wargames depend on the support of a small group of players who are willing to endure higher price and lower production value. We overlook these defects because we want the genre to thrive, but by doing so we are also encouraging unsatisfactory products.

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Captain_Orso
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Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:22 am

I don't think I've ever seen "unquestioning loyalty" in these forums. I've seen many people who are interested in questioning things they don't understand or don't agree with, and many who put in sometimes an extraordinary amount of time and effort to assist AGEod to find and fix issues, and often to simply improve the game in general.

That is not "unquestioning loyalty"; that is dedication.
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jgreene58
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Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:49 am

I feel fortunate that these guys are producing games like this. So many things are right with this title and the things that aren't will be fixed. Relax and enjoy.......

vaalen
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Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:10 pm

Captain_Orso wrote:I don't think I've ever seen "unquestioning loyalty" in these forums. I've seen many people who are interested in questioning things they don't understand or don't agree with, and many who put in sometimes an extraordinary amount of time and effort to assist AGEod to find and fix issues, and often to simply improve the game in general.

That is not "unquestioning loyalty"; that is dedication.


Well said, and I completely agree.

vaalen
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Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:17 pm

jgreene58 wrote:I feel fortunate that these guys are producing games like this. So many things are right with this title and the things that aren't will be fixed. Relax and enjoy.......


So true. And I point out that no one else is producing games like this. Ageod has earned my loyalty, time and time again. I will often point out something that may be a problem in a game, but I do so in friendship, intending to help, not harm, and knowing that the PHls are great guys who want their games to be better, and they have made every game better. And there is nothing else on Earth that can compare to the scope and richness of these games.

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