British Fleet and Western Med

[DDLAfan]

On the 1st turn of the campaign I moved Nelson's fleet into the western med toward Toulon. I ran the turn several times to test, and it happens each time.

The Spanish forts at Cueta, Melilla, Mers el kebir, Almeria and Cartegana all get to rake Nelson as he goes by (depending on the route he takes).

Now I could understand if Nelson was coming in with fleet bombardment chosen, or moving down a river that had a fort, but otherwise I think the fleet would move by deep water rather then hugging the coast and running the guns all the way down. By the time he gets through these forts many of his ships have suffered moderate damage.

Is this WAD to reflect the dangers of sea travel, or is this goofed up?

[seathom]

Forts will inflict damage on passing enemy ships, it's WAD. You must have taken Nelson's fleet and dropped it by Toulon, the game will plot the quickest route, which is not necessarily the best route. When this happens, it is best to plot the path yourself by dropping Nelson's fleet in deep water yourself in stages until you get near Toulon and avoid the coastal forts as much as possible.

[DDLAfan]

Sounds good, only their are only two sea spaces for the first two moves in the western med...so your either bordering Africa, or bordering Spain. No third water deep water space is available.

[Pocus]

Yes, that's a bit a limitation of the engine, but it can be worked around if that's too big a problem.

[Trueknight]

I agree with the OP.. I really think that IRL it was possible to cruise the Western Med staying clear of Spanish and north african the costal guns, but it's impossible in the game...there is no sea province that isn't bordering a city from Gibraltar, all the way up to Cartagena...I'm ok with costal guns damaging fleets passing by, I think the best solution would be to add a few more provinces in the middle of western med, to allow safe passage.

Also, it's not possibile for British ships to enter the Med or even land at Gibraltar without being hit by (EDIT) Ceuta guns...I'm not sure if that's historically accurate...

[PhilThib]

Adding new sea regions won't solve all the issues and is just totally impossible at this stage. The only two viable solutions are:

1 (best) - Limit the shooting of coastal guns only when the port is "attacked" by ships (remain to define what it is)
2 - Remove the coastal guns there (won't solve the issue after they are rebuilt)
3 - OTHER?

[veji1]

I have to agree that the Gibraltar straights and the rest of the med until Alméria on the north side and Melilla on the south shouldn't feel like trying to run between the front line trenches on the western front !! The value of Gibraltar for the brits wasn't that it allowed them to bomb everything sailing past, rather that it gave their fleet the capacity to be there and intercept any ennemy passing by. Basically here in game it shoudl manifest itself with the brits having the capacity (and desire) to keep a biggish fleet outside of Gibraltar intercepting everything. Fort bombardment should be a lot more limited in game : a fort bombards a fleet coming near it to disembark troops or to try and silence the fort.

[seathom]

So you definitely don't want to take the Spain route; is the African route enemy controlled? If it is you'll have to expect losses from this vital choke point and thus that is a fantastic defensive position for your enemy to be in -- war isn't always easy .

You're only other option short of peace with an enemy is for a naval invasion to take a port and then you won't have to face their guns and can move freely.

Good luck.

[Trueknight]

I have to agree that the Gibraltar straights and the rest of the med until Alméria on the north side and Melilla on the south shouldn't feel like trying to run between the front line trenches on the western front !! The value of Gibraltar for the brits wasn't that it allowed them to bomb everything sailing past, rather that it gave their fleet the capacity to be there and intercept any ennemy passing by. Basically here in game it shoudl manifest itself with the brits having the capacity (and desire) to keep a biggish fleet outside of Gibraltar intercepting everything. Fort bombardment should be a lot more limited in game : a fort bombards a fleet coming near it to disembark troops or to try and silence the fort.

As it is, even moving troops from and to Gibraltar is dangerous for British ships! No need to get inside the Med
I'm not sure if it's technically feasable, but maybe the conditions for fort bombardment should be that the enemy fleet either has "Distant Unloading" or "Fleet Bombardment" special action?

[veji1]

As it is, even moving troops from and to Gibraltar is dangerous for British ships! No need to get inside the Med
I'm not sure if it's technically feasable, but maybe the conditions for fort bombardment should be that the enemy fleet either has "Distant Unloading" or "Fleet Bombardment" special action?

That's more or less what Philthibs said : limit bombardement to when the fleet interacts with the coastal province the fort is in : either bombardment or unloading. Triggers should be feasible : when the unloading starts in province x, the first thing done is a check for a fort, and if positive, it bombards the fleet...

[elxaime]

Triggers should be feasible : when the unloading starts in province x, the first thing done is a check for a fort, and if positive, it bombards the fleet...

That seems the best solution. Have coastal forts fire on a fleet only when the target fleet: a) has orders that include bombardment or b) the target fleet has a distant unloading order for the province the coastal guns occupy.

[vicberg]

That seems the best solution. Have coastal forts fire on a fleet only when the target fleet: a) has orders that include bombardment or b) the target fleet has a distant unloading order for the province the coastal guns occupy.

Won't work either. Makes it too easy to run the forts and at various spots on map would makes forts irrelevent when they shouldn't be

[vicberg]

If you can determine if land exists on both side of a sea zone within a region, and I'm thinking Constantinople, then forts should fire reflecting the narrow sea area. If land exists only on one side of a region, then forts only fire if targeted.

[agilabe]

Thanks for the share of these informations.

[Pocus]

Adding new sea regions won't solve all the issues and is just totally impossible at this stage. The only two viable solutions are:

1 (best) - Limit the shooting of coastal guns only when the port is "attacked" by ships (remain to define what it is)
2 - Remove the coastal guns there (won't solve the issue after they are rebuilt)
3 - OTHER?

I was thinking of enabling a rule

// Forts blocking ship passage: 0: every region can do that (if have guns), 1: needs to have StraitBlock indicated in Exmap in addition
rulStraitBlockOn = 0

and then editing some regions to allow firing only in those regions (the straits!)

[veji1]

I was thinking of enabling a rule

// Forts blocking ship passage: 0: every region can do that (if have guns), 1: needs to have StraitBlock indicated in Exmap in addition
rulStraitBlockOn = 0

and then editing some regions to allow firing only in those regions (the straits!)

That would be good, I think the point is that indeed if you run for it in Constantinople, you'll get plastered, but Gibraltar was never a "getting bombed the crap out" problem, rather a "the RN has eyes in the one and only place joining the Med and the open ocean so knows of everybody's moves and can then intercept you".