elxaime
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Commanders in Chief, Theater Commanders, Making Three Stars and How It Matters

Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:20 am

I am still trying to understand how command and control work in this game. I put down below what I THINK is happening. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Commander In Chief
There is only one of these slots available and only for the Major combatants (e.g. the Germans get one but the Bulgarians don't). From what I can tell you can have one CiC per theater, but for some reason I haven't been able to create one as CP besides West and Eastern fronts. You can only nominate three-stars to Army Commander status if you start a turn within the command range of the CiC. The CiC specific added values (the ones on the furthest left) apply to any friendly army commander (not corps commander) in the same theater. I believe, but am not sure, the subordinate army commander has to still be within command range of the CiC to get the special CiC benefits. The CiC's change to the subordinate's command values currently doesn't show up when you look at them however (the variations are "hidden" but this should change in a future patch?). A weird current effect is that all the generals on the same alliance side are apparently on the same promotion seniority list - you will lose VP and possibly NM if you promote a German guy before a more senior Turk. Hopefully this will also be fixed in the future. Finally, the CiC acts, when near the front lines, like any other commander - he can lead troops, react, etc. but reacts and gets reinforcements with priority over others. I have no idea if CiC in a theater communicate their effects to allied generals of different nationalities, or if you need the "command multinational" ability for this to happen.

Theater Commanders
The CiC described above is Boss of All, but you can still have CiC in other theaters. This is speculation on my part, but even if you can't select a three-star and promote them to CiC, if they are senior three star in a theater and the real CiC isn't also in the same theater, the game will recognize the senior three-star in-theater as "CiC" and their benefits will apply. Again, not sure if other armies need to be within range or if every other three star in the theater benefits. As above, i don't see any ratings change to the human eye, so I suppose the "CiC" boost is hidden currently. As above, I have no idea if it matters if the CiC of a theater is a different nationality or not.

Three-Stars
You can only make someone who is a three star into an army commander if they start a turn within command range of the CiC (a real one, not a "theater" CiC). Apparently, per design only three-stars from the bigger powers can be turned into army commanders. You also seem to need to be the same nationality for this to happen, e.g. a German CiC can't make a Hapsburg three-star within range into a army commander. The Hapsburg has to run over to where where his own Hapsburg CiC is. Army commander forces will MTSG like anyone else, including to adjacent fellow armies. I believe, but am not sure, that allied nationalities armies will MTSG to fellow allied forces like they would to their own nationality (but I am not sure of this). I believe, but haven't tried yet, that army commanders with the "multinational ability" can command other allied nationalities, e.g. have them in their stack without CP penalties, but that doesn't mean they can include them in coordinated attacks like they would with corps in the same region of their same nationality (e.g. a German army leader, even with multinational ability, in a region with a German and a Hapsburg Corps, can't coordinate the attacks of both to arrive at the same time, just the German Corps - the Hapsburg has to march to their own tune and if needed make a MTSG roll.

Corps Command
Any two star or above (who is not already a CiC or army commander) can become a corps commander. However, they have to be active that turn. The turn they take command their ratings suck though. They will benefit from being within command range of a CiC but have to be in the same stack to get the benefits of an army commander - otherwise although that can MTSG like anyone else, they do so with their own corps rated probability. You can't really "attach" a corp to an army, but you can really only launch coordinated attacks with multiple corps if you have an army in the same region to act as coordinator. I believe allied corps of different nationalities will MTSG for each other's battles without penalty.

So am I basically right in the above?

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Kensai
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Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:21 am

CiC and Theater Commander should be the same person in each theater. There's only one for each theater. Range should not matter in their case. If it matters, it's probably a bug. The Army commanders on the other hand should have their attached corps in range in order to give them their advantage.

I wish as well the bonuses given were more straightforward on the interface. Perhaps in a future, all AGEOD games patch. :)
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elxaime
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Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:33 am

Kensai wrote:The Army commanders on the other hand should have their attached corps in range in order to give them their advantage.


Since there is no attachment feature for corps, I have always assumed a corps didn't benefit from an army leader unless they were in the same region. And I have no idea who benefits who when you have multiple armies in the same region or equidistant from a corps. It seems to me that only CiC are radiating benefits. For example, I can see nearby German army leaders stats rise when CiC Hindenburg is within range. However I don't see German corps leaders stats change, nor do I see Hindenburg affecting German armies outside his range, even if they are in the same theater. There is a conflict between what the tool-tip says (CiC affect all within the theatre they are in) and what your eyes tell you. And I still have no idea if the senior three-star army leader in a theatre is considered "CiC" for that theatre and can offer those benefits theatre-wide.

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Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:50 am

Any general can command a corps. Of course, the vast, vast majority of commanders are 2-star or higher, but if you take a look at von Lettow, he commands a corps. Army commanders can't have "attached" corps in the sense that army groups have attached armies. The army commander improves the stats of the corps under him, but not in the sense of the interaction between GHQs and armies.

The Commander in Chief is in actuality the highest seniority person in the theater, and gives bonuses based on traits to everyone in the theater. You call it a theater commander. What you call a CiC is called an Army Group leader or GHQ, and lead groups of armies.

And, yes, each side has one hierarchy of commanders. Quite frustrating, as every country has different scales of seniority. German commanders have an average of 100 seniority, for instance, while the Turks have an average of 50. It'll be very rare for the highest seniority officer in a country that needs a GHQ actually be the highest seniority officer across the entire side, and thus NM penalties follow.

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ajarnlance
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Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:57 am

elxaime wrote:Since there is no attachment feature for corps, I have always assumed a corps didn't benefit from an army leader unless they were in the same region. And I have no idea who benefits who when you have multiple armies in the same region or equidistant from a corps. It seems to me that only CiC are radiating benefits. For example, I can see nearby German army leaders stats rise when CiC Hindenburg is within range. However I don't see German corps leaders stats change, nor do I see Hindenburg affecting German armies outside his range, even if they are in the same theater. There is a conflict between what the tool-tip says (CiC affect all within the theatre they are in) and what your eyes tell you. And I still have no idea if the senior three-star army leader in a theatre is considered "CiC" for that theatre and can offer those benefits theatre-wide.


Yes, command and control seems murky to me in EAW. It seems to me that the designers have taken something that was well implemented in ACW and made it more difficult to understand in EAW! In ACW attached corps flash red when you select their army commander, making it easy to see who is linked to who. As you have noted, the unclear command and control system in EAW also makes MTSG more difficult to grasp in this game.... doesn't seem like it would take much effort to fix in a patch... just take a look at how well the system in ACW works.
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Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:27 pm

ringhloth wrote:The Commander in Chief is in actuality the highest seniority person in the theater, and gives bonuses based on traits to everyone in the theater. You call it a theater commander. What you call a CiC is called an Army Group leader or GHQ, and lead groups of armies.


This is where it is still murky.

1. Only one Three-Star can be GHQ (or two, in the Germans case? One west and one East?). The GHQ may not actually be the highest seniority leader in that theatre - you can appoint a lower seniority general if you want to take a huge NM hit (and probably doom your war effort with that one stroke). Aside from the GHQ guy, is the senior three star in a theater considered to have their traits apply "if" they are the senior three-star in that theater? Or does this apply only to the GHQ leader?

2. Is it really true the GHQ benefits apply to all friendly units in the theater, including Corps? I have only noticed the GHQ benefiting army commanders within his radius. And will they apply across allied nationalities or do they only help their own nationality? If you happen to have Hotzendorf and Hindenburg in the same theatre, whose ratings apply to whom?

i understand the whole NM penalty thing. But NM seems to operate vastly differently in this game. You don't seem to have the wild 8-10 point swings. One point matters. Only a madman or someone determined to lose would take a huge NM hit to anger that elderly Turkish general.

elxaime
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Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:33 pm

ajarnlance wrote:Yes, command and control seems murky to me in EAW. It seems to me that the designers have taken something that was well implemented in ACW and made it more difficult to understand in EAW! In ACW attached corps flash red when you select their army commander, making it easy to see who is linked to who. As you have noted, the unclear command and control system in EAW also makes MTSG more difficult to grasp in this game.... doesn't seem like it would take much effort to fix in a patch... just take a look at how well the system in ACW works.


To me, there seem several related issues:

One is they need to better explain command and control. I realize it is the AGEOD style to keep you in the dark and guessing about "what's under the hood." But in this case, it seems utterly confusing.

Two, what seems to be happening at the top level is you have the illusion of choice as to whom you want to run your war. But in fact, replacing that sorry German GHQ, even with a higher seniority German, will cost dearly in NM and VP that are scarce in this game. Making the most senior German three-star the new Ober Ost should not come with an automatic NM hit due to the anger of a septuagenarian Hapsburg Archduke or Turkish Bey.

Third, the promotion system that was used in ACW, where you only get more three-stars if you can battle promote, seems to interact differently with a combat system where army stacks (and especially massed army stacks) hold such advantages. Whoever has more army stacks, which is based on the availability of sometimes-scarce three stars, has a big advantage in their ability to pack combat power into a region. I don't think anyone gets automatic promotions, e.g. like Union General Keyes in ACW2, except for the few scripted GHQ events.

The last thing seems to be the VP hit you take almost every time you promote a two star to three star. Since the seniority lists are common across all nationalities, promoting three or four decent two stars to three star can cost you four-to-five hundred VP combined.

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Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:55 pm

Even though it will say you take a NM hit for promoting a German to GHQ over an Austrian or
Turk, the NM hit doesn't actually happen. If you ever see that actually happen post a save of
your game for the devs to see it.
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elxaime
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Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:07 pm

DrPostman wrote:Even though it will say you take a NM hit for promoting a German to GHQ over an Austrian or
Turk, the NM hit doesn't actually happen. If you ever see that actually happen post a save of
your game for the devs to see it.


Wow, that's good to know. But definitely something that needs a patch/fix. Right now, I suspect a lot of players like myself never make the promotion after hovering the tool-tip and being told the Emir of Bukhara will throw a fit if General Hindenburg is given command of Ober Ost.

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Jim-NC
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Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:47 am

The French, British, Austrian, Ottoman Empire, Italian and Russians only get 1 GHQ. The Germans get 2. As there are more theaters than GHQs, the highest seniority 3 star general becomes the CIC if there is no GHQ (this can be a minor country general). Depending on your playing style/location, there could be a British theater CIC in Egypt (if the British GHQ is in France) for example.

This game uses the same basic system as CWII, except that instead of corps attached to an army, it's armies attached to a GHQ. You get the same red flashing light when on the unit that is in the chain of command. The difference is they let every available unit MTSG in this game, whereas in CWII, only corps in the same army could do that.
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elxaime
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Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:01 am

Jim-NC wrote:The French, British, Austrian, Ottoman Empire, Italian and Russians only get 1 GHQ. The Germans get 2. As there are more theaters than GHQs, the highest seniority 3 star general becomes the CIC if there is no GHQ (this can be a minor country general). Depending on your playing style/location, there could be a British theater CIC in Egypt (if the British GHQ is in France) for example.

This game uses the same basic system as CWII, except that instead of corps attached to an army, it's armies attached to a GHQ. You get the same red flashing light when on the unit that is in the chain of command. The difference is they let every available unit MTSG in this game, whereas in CWII, only corps in the same army could do that.


Thanks. I understand the GHQ now. But the whole "theater CiC" thing is still murky. Not that one exists, but what their powers and effects are.

As to "...the highest seniority 3 star general becomes the CIC if there is no GHQ..." in a theater, does that CiC radiate his abilities throughout the theater just like a GHQ does? I assume the main difference is that the CiC does not have the same army attachment ability of a GHQ. Hence, only a GHQ can affect command ratings (like an army commander would to a corps commander in ACW2).

If my above assumptions are correct, it would be great if you could add a ledger showing current chains of command for your alliance. At the top is the current GHQ. Then the ledger shows you who is currently the senior three star in each theater (besides where the GHQ is). The ledger would also show what special abilities are being applied in that theater currently. This would be a great play aid.

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Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:00 am

Jim-NC wrote:the highest seniority 3 star general becomes the CIC if there is no GHQ (this can be a minor country general).


You sure about that? This is accurate in the beginning of the game where by definition all GHQs are highest in ranking anyway, but later you could have a different 3-star with higher than the GHQ's ranking. In that case, if the rules apply, the CiC should be him, not the GHQ one. It's only a fortuitous coincidence that GHQs and CiCs are the same persons.

--
Sorry about the confusion earlier, not corps attached to armies but armies attached to army groups. Too much PON for me! :bonk:
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ajarnlance
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Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:14 am

elxaime wrote:...it would be great if you could add a ledger showing current chains of command for your alliance. At the top is the current GHQ. Then the ledger shows you who is currently the senior three star in each theater (besides where the GHQ is). The ledger would also show what special abilities are being applied in that theater currently. This would be a great play aid.


+1. An organisation chart showing the hierarchy in each theatre would be a welcome addition. This could include promotable generals as well.
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Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:36 pm

Proper chain of command with good graphic would be very much apriciteted.

I got bit lost, do commanders of the corps benefit from army, or CiC or theater comander?
Do all the MTSG no mather if they are attached or not?

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Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:41 pm

marek1978 wrote:Proper chain of command with good graphic would be very much apriciteted.

I got bit lost, do commanders of the corps benefit from army, or CiC or theater comander?
Do all the MTSG no mather if they are attached or not?


According to p.109 of the manual:
'Depending on the situation, an Army or GHQ engaged in combat
may decide to call for reinforcements. If it does, Armies attached
to that same GHQ (Army Group) located in adjacent regions may
answer the call and join the fight if they pass a check. This check
takes into account distance, the level of Military Control in both
regions and the Strategic Rating of the reinforcing Army leader.'

It mentions nothing about Corps mtsg. I think Corps are independent... they don't mtsg unless stacked with an Army commander. Anyone else know if this is correct??
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Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:46 pm

Corp commanders can MTSG in support of any valid adjacent force. They don't need to be stacked with them. Its a change from other AGEOD games like CW2.

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Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:56 pm

TXcavalier wrote:Corp commanders can MTSG in support of any valid adjacent force. They don't need to be stacked with them. Its a change from other AGEOD games like CW2.


Thanks for the info but where is this written down?? The manual clearly states that only Armies and GHQ have this mtsg ability (see quote above). This is what drives new players crazy... why bother reading the manual if it is so incomplete/ incorrect....??
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Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:01 pm

CiC of a theater and GHQ doesn't have any impact on one another. They're two completely different mechanics. The only real connection is the GHQ tends to have high seniority, as they seem to gain seniority when their armies do. CiC has an impact on skills (AFAIK, all of the black background with a white foreground are the skills that are used), which give bonuses to every commander in the theater. GHQs apply their bonuses to their armies in range, and only their armies in range.

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Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:06 pm

ajarnlance wrote:Thanks for the info but where is this written down?? The manual clearly states that only Armies and GHQ have this mtsg ability (see quote above). This is what drives new players crazy... why bother reading the manual if it is so incomplete/ incorrect....??


Not sure there is one yet, but EAW cries out for a Wiki that: 1) explains murky game mechanics and; 2) corrects inaccurate or misleading manual/tooltip information.

For example, the manual says you need two supply wagons to build a depot. However, EAW supply wagons have two elements, not the four of ACW2. Hence you actually need four EAW supply wagons to get to the required eight elements. A newcomer would not know that unless they hunted forum threads and might think instead their game copy was glitched or it was a bug.

New players can be directed to the Official Wiki instead of needing to force march through these forums or wait for the manuals to be updated.

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Wed Nov 12, 2014 2:39 am

I have to agree with independent corps not being attached. It certainly doesn't say like in other Ageod/Athena games "When you create this corps it will be attached to XXXXXX Army."
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Wed Nov 12, 2014 4:23 am

H Gilmer3 wrote:I have to agree with independent corps not being attached. It certainly doesn't say like in other Ageod/Athena games "When you create this corps it will be attached to XXXXXX Army."


As I understand it, only corps actually in the same stack with an army commander are "attached" in the sense of EAW. Everyone else, including corps in the same region but outside the army stack(s) is considered independent. These independent corps will MTSG like everyone else. GHQ provide their leadership statistic benefits to army commanders within their range, but the theater CiC do not. Both the GHQ and the theater CiC will provide their special black/white icon modifiers to all units in theater, not just those within range. I assume that in theaters where there is a GHQ, their modifiers trump, even over other three-stars with higher seniority. I assume the senior three star CiC abilities apply to all allied nationalities.

The upside to having armies in each of the regions on your front line is that armies MTSG at a higher probability than corps and you can fit more combat power into an army shell. You can also put some two-stars with special "applies to all elements of the stack" abilities into your army stacks. The downside is that your army commander's stats may be poorer than some of the corps commanders. But the downside to taking advantage of good corps commanders and putting them in their own stack in that same region is that they may/may not fully participate in a battle alongside the friendly army. Definitely a game that rewards micro-management of commanders and their abilities. And definitely, I think promoting worthy two-stars to army command is a sub-game all of its own - although you are really in the dark with these guys since some of their stats and abilities change and you have no idea if your two-star Prince Charming will turn into a three-star Frog until you do the promotion.

All the above is my surmise.

Again though, all of this could benefit from a Wiki, or at least a sticky, written in the most direct and comprehensive way and accessible to newcomers.

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Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:34 am

elxaime wrote: GHQ provide their leadership statistic benefits to army commanders within their range, but the theater CiC do not. Both the GHQ and the theater CiC will provide their special black/white icon modifiers to all units in theater, not just those within range.


I agree with most of what you are saying but are you sure about the quote above?? I have made Hindenburg CinC in the East and all the stats of my Army Commanders have increased as a result. Also it doesn't make sense that BOTH the CinC AND the GHQs provide their special black/white icon modifiers to all units in theater. Some of the abilities are the same.. would they be cumulative ie add up?
This whole area needs clarifying. Wish we could get some official comment... the manual isn't comprehensive enough.
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Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:53 am

ajarnlance wrote:I agree with most of what you are saying but are you sure about the quote above?? I have made Hindenburg CinC in the East and all the stats of my Army Commanders have increased as a result. Also it doesn't make sense that BOTH the CinC AND the GHQs provide their special black/white icon modifiers to all units in theater. Some of the abilities are the same.. would they be cumulative ie add up?
This whole area needs clarifying. Wish we could get some official comment... the manual isn't comprehensive enough.


When CiC become GHQ, the usual statistical changes happen to friendly armies within range, similar to how it works with army commanders and corps in ACW2. But the "automatic" CiC, e.g. the senior three-star in a theater where there is not already a GHQ, does not. However - we are told - the black/white symbol modifiers for a GHQ and a "theater CiC" where there is no GHQ, all apply across all units in that theater. I do not think they stack. I assume a GHQ trumps everyone else in theater. I assume - but do not know for sure - that the "theater CiC" radiated benefits help all units of that alliance, not just units of the same nationality.

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Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:10 am

elxaime wrote:As I understand it, only corps actually in the same stack with an army commander are "attached" in the sense of EAW. Everyone else, including corps in the same region but outside the army stack(s) is considered independent. These independent corps will MTSG like everyone else. GHQ provide their leadership statistic benefits to army commanders within their range, but the theater CiC do not. Both the GHQ and the theater CiC will provide their special black/white icon modifiers to all units in theater, not just those within range. I assume that in theaters where there is a GHQ, their modifiers trump, even over other three-stars with higher seniority. I assume the senior three star CiC abilities apply to all allied nationalities.

The upside to having armies in each of the regions on your front line is that armies MTSG at a higher probability than corps and you can fit more combat power into an army shell. You can also put some two-stars with special "applies to all elements of the stack" abilities into your army stacks. The downside is that your army commander's stats may be poorer than some of the corps commanders. But the downside to taking advantage of good corps commanders and putting them in their own stack in that same region is that they may/may not fully participate in a battle alongside the friendly army. Definitely a game that rewards micro-management of commanders and their abilities. And definitely, I think promoting worthy two-stars to army command is a sub-game all of its own - although you are really in the dark with these guys since some of their stats and abilities change and you have no idea if your two-star Prince Charming will turn into a three-star Frog until you do the promotion.

All the above is my surmise.

Again though, all of this could benefit from a Wiki, or at least a sticky, written in the most direct and comprehensive way and accessible to newcomers.


I think that is a pretty good surmise and I think that the corp will synch movement with an army if they are the same nationality? I think.
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Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:30 pm

Wow, this is a great thread for a newb.

1) I see in post #10 that it says ALL units can MTSG. Can stacks without leaders MTSG? Or only Armies and Corps can MSTG?
2) Is this a correct summary: (a) GHQ affects ONLY armies within its range? (b) Armies only affect units within its own Stack? (c) similar to b in that a Corp does not benefit from the GHQ? and (d) If you are in an area without a GHQ (Egypt, Turkey), the most senior officer is the GHQ..,sort of?

Thanks

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Sir Garnet
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Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:43 pm

And my question . . . so the order of battle of ground forces for a country consists of

* 1 Army Group/GHQ (bujt Germany gets 2) with a 3-region bonus range,

* a fixed number of "Army" stacks each of which is separate from but "attached" in terms of the chain of commmand to the GHQ (this fixed number might adjust for various reasons, but I can't find how to create a new army or what criteria apply other than being near the GHQ)

*a large number of independent stacks that can be created and broken up at will from corps and smaller units and have no organizational connection to any Armies or or GHQ

* Corps conserve a general's command points, but not as much as do "Armies."

* The way it all works together is that Corps, and even more so Armies, are able and likekly to reinforce neighboring stacks, while those independent stacks are not. This makes the armies and corps important to fighting, and useful to operate in proximity along the front for support.

* Theaters also have their (senrior) commander as CIC, who has an effect of some kind.

Is this accurate as far as it goes? Which isn't far.

Thanks

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Jim-NC
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Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:15 am

Hey Sir Garnet,

Kinda Close.

Some countries have a GHQ (Britain/France/Germany x 2/Austro-Hungary/Russia). Italy and the Ottoman Empire also get GHQs when they join.

Each GHQ can create a certain number of armies using generals of the same nationality (I believe). The army gets extra command points (CPs - 48 vs 24).

Everything else is a loose stack, that will support each other. Divisions will attempt to assist other divisions.

Corps only have more hit points as the units are combined, that's the only advantage (they cost 12 CPs, and can fit 2 divisions that take 12 CPs). If not in an army, a 2 or 3 star commander gives 24 CPs (+/- bonus/maulus).

As an added wrinkle, there is a theater commander, which may or may not be a GHQ. For example, the Russians get a GHQ, but the Serbians will have a theater commander, as they are in a different theater of war. The highest seniority commander is the theater commander. There is an overlay that allows you to see which theater a unit belongs.

Hope this helps.
Remember - The beatings will continue until morale improves.

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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Erik Springelkamp
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Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:40 am

Jim-NC wrote:Corps only have more hit points as the units are combined, that's the only advantage (they cost 12 CPs, and can fit 2 divisions that take 12 CPs)


I don't understand what the effect is here. The total number of steps is still the same, isn't it?

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Sir Garnet
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Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:23 pm

Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:17 am

Thanks for the clarification! Seeing armies as key points of command and resource attention and having all stacks able to march to the sound of the guns starts to make sense to represent a war that usually settled into opposed entrenched battle lines but included some more mobile operations. The red herrings in the manual and the game text and a couple text references to the wrong level of organization were confusing, as is a tutorial that doesn't fit Russia (but I expect I'm quirky in wanting to try that first).

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Jim-NC
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Location: Near Region 209, North Carolina

Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:34 am

Erik Springelkamp wrote:I don't understand what the effect is here. The total number of steps is still the same, isn't it?


An example to explain my point (not that these are the exact values, but it helps).
A division is made of 2 elements of infantry with 20 hit points each = 40 hit points.
A corps is 2 division of 2 elements of infantry with 20 hit points each = 80 hit points.

So if the division is targeted and takes 40 hit points, both elements are destroyed. If the corps takes 40 hit points, then all 4 elements are still alive as they will have taken 10/10/10/10. So they can fire back at the enemy.

So a corps is better in that it has more hit points, and can survive longer.

Also, another point is that the commander of the corps passes his bonus to the corps (assuming he has one).

Hope this explains it better.
Remember - The beatings will continue until morale improves.

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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