User avatar
Templer
General
Posts: 591
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:33 pm
Contact: Website

Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:18 pm

Oh, I hope this informative thread is not going too hot.

I do not understand anything about programming, but I am convinced, if it would be quite easy to program an engaging, challenging AI, then this would have already be done by AGEOD.
I hope that AGEOD continues to work hard on improving the AI.

However, on player side:
Generals are paid to find strategies to beat the enemy. This includes, unusual, bold or irrational strategies.
Greetings
Templer

User avatar
HerrDan
Posts: 1524
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 8:14 am
Location: Königsberg

Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:00 pm

So the question is, why on earth would I bother to answer this little angry kid Hubu? I'm sure I don't need to waste my time with this philistine. Kensai congratulations to you for having the patience to discuss with such an idiot, because I have not. You have just showed all in all, how he was wrong and btw he has no right to complain about your "harshness" as he began by barking things like the line "Since the only way to help the dev save the almost non-existing AI" and so on, so the kid just got what he deserved. :p apy:

Cheers.
"Das Glück hilft dem Kühnen."

German Empire PON 1880 AAR:http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?35152-German-Empire-not-quite-an-AAR

User avatar
Owl
Major
Posts: 238
Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:06 pm
Location: Tokyo, Japan

Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:08 pm

There have been several outbursts of strong emotions on the forum these last few days, people should probably calm down a little to preserve the cordial atmosphere normally experienced here.

User avatar
Pocus
Posts: 25423
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:37 am
Location: Lyon (France)

Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:32 pm

Indeed, let's have everybody cool down. EAW is not our first game and even if this is not very pleasing to hear that some people think the AI is totally lousy, we take these remarks with a grain of salt (providing nobody insult us on a personal level that is!)

We prefer to watch remarks in general, and see how many people are furious against the AI, how many find it so-so and how many report it can do great things at time, and that's it. From these general impressions, we decide where we should focus our working hours. At the end of the week, knowing we have done the best possible given our limited abilities ;) and the finite amount of time available per day, we can only hope the next patch will improve enough the game and AI that more people will be pleased by the game, and less left discontent. That said, the overall tone of the forum is positive, there is no doubt about that, even if there is margin for improvements.
Image


Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

User avatar
Templer
General
Posts: 591
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:33 pm
Contact: Website

Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:38 pm

Oh yes, calm down please.

It is often not easy to communicate his thoughts in appropriate words.
So it happened again and again, that the words you write, are misunderstood.
I myself have learned today that it probably gives the impression that I personally would dislike, maybe even hate To End All Wars.
Sirs! The opposite is the truth!

There should be no place for personal insults in forums.
Reports the bugs you find.
Reported what you don't like so we have a chance to discuss it and so we might find a solution this way.

Keep in mind, 'To End All Wars' is currently version 1.0!
We have to give AGEOD the time and the opportunity through patches to update, to correct, to fix, to improve the game.
Greetings

Templer

RGA
Lieutenant Colonel
Posts: 259
Joined: Mon May 24, 2010 9:22 am
Location: Britains oldest recorded town.

Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:52 pm

Templer wrote:Oh yes, calm down please.

It is often not easy to communicate his thoughts in appropriate words.
So it happened again and again, that the words you write, are misunderstood.
I myself have learned today that it probably gives the impression that I personally would dislike, maybe even hate To End All Wars.
Sirs! The opposite is the truth!

There should be no place for personal insults in forums.
Reports the bugs you find.
Reported what you don't like so we have a chance to discuss it and so we might find a solution this way.

Keep in mind, 'To End All Wars' is currently version 1.0!
We have to give AGEOD the time and the opportunity through patches to update, to correct, to fix, to improve the game.



I got a good mind to join a club and beat you over the head with it!

vaalen
AGEod Guard of Honor
Posts: 1226
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:48 pm

Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:30 pm

Templer wrote:Oh yes, calm down please.

It is often not easy to communicate his thoughts in appropriate words.
So it happened again and again, that the words you write, are misunderstood.
I myself have learned today that it probably gives the impression that I personally would dislike, maybe even hate To End All Wars.
Sirs! The opposite is the truth!

There should be no place for personal insults in forums.
Reports the bugs you find.
Reported what you don't like so we have a chance to discuss it and so we might find a solution this way.

Keep in mind, 'To End All Wars' is currently version 1.0!
We have to give AGEOD the time and the opportunity through patches to update, to correct, to fix, to improve the game.


Well said, Templar.

User avatar
Pocus
Posts: 25423
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:37 am
Location: Lyon (France)

Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:41 pm

A lot of time spent on the first patch is on AI. There are already very good progress on several fronts. Like offensive AI more prone to keep a frontline, more and clever unit production (the Russian bear awaken in the next patch, you have seen nothing!) and several others AI goodies. Just be patient, the war in itself is complex, the engine and AI are complex too. We are on the game, each day and the first patch will have significant content on bug fixes, AI improvements and interface tweaks.
Image


Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

User avatar
caranorn
Posts: 1332
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:20 pm
Location: Luxembourg

Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:40 am

Pocus wrote:A lot of time spent on the first patch is on AI. There are already very good progress on several fronts. Like offensive AI more prone to keep a frontline, more and clever unit production (the Russian bear awaken in the next patch, you have seen nothing!) and several others AI goodies. Just be patient, the war in itself is complex, the engine and AI are complex too. We are on the game, each day and the first patch will have significant content on bug fixes, AI improvements and interface tweaks.


Great news, I expect all issues won't be solved in a singe path, but I trust you to get it working over time :-) ...
Marc aka Caran...

User avatar
GlobalExplorer
AGEod Veteran
Posts: 777
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:35 pm
Location: Berlin
Contact: Website

Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:20 pm

@Pocus, I already wrote in the past that the AI needs some kind of stack optimizer.
If it would never go to the field with command penalties a lot of the AI problems would solve itself.
I for always try to maximize bonuses in my stacks, 1 marines, engineers, artillery, cavalry, a recon plane unit in every stack, etc, and that's why the AI very rarely has a chance in a battle against me.
And like others I have seen this reflected in much too high casualties on the AI side. I have inflicted 1,5:1 to 2:1 times more casualties on the Germans and Austrians, and I play as Russia! With Serbia I have seen 10:1 and more.

User avatar
GlobalExplorer
AGEod Veteran
Posts: 777
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:35 pm
Location: Berlin
Contact: Website

Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:25 pm

Also to be really successful in this game the AI would need to understand the concept of holding defensive positions. In order to win you must move to strategically important positions before the enemy, and then be the defender. No matter how good you are you cannot win in these games by always taking offensive action against fortifications. I always try to weaken the enemy first before I move to attack, except if the defense is outnumbered 3:1 or more (I think that is a realistic ratio that Lee suggested)

Having said that, the AI in 1.00 did not do anything stupid in my game, and acted rather cautious.

User avatar
Kensai
Posts: 2702
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:54 pm
Location: Freiburg, Germany

Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:44 pm

I am not at all unhappy sometimes with the AI. Started a game (v1.0) with the Russians and moved after 1914 in a Release Candidate patch (when ready for prime time it will be released, patience!). Not entirely sure when this German move happened, I have not been paying attention but it looks quite nice as a breakthrough towards Paris. Probably some things of the patch didn't even apply as this was an ongoing game, so I might have been lucky. Also notice the usual French countermove towards Metz (already captured) and Thionville.

I wonder what will happen if the AI Germans manage to get Paris and turn their wrath in my East Entente. :siffle:

Image
Care to unify Germany as Austria? Recreate the Holy Roman Empire of the 20th Century:
Großdeutschland Mod
Are you tough enough to impersonate the Shogun and defy the Westerners? Prove it:
Shogun Defiance Mod (completed AAR)

bob.
General
Posts: 543
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:56 pm

Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:04 pm

Kensai wrote:I am not at all unhappy sometimes with the AI. Started a game (v1.0) with the Russians and moved after 1914 in a Release Candidate patch (when ready for prime time it will be released, patience!). Not entirely sure when this German move happened, I have not been paying attention but it looks quite nice as a breakthrough towards Paris. Probably some things of the patch didn't even apply as this was an ongoing game, so I might have been lucky. Also notice the usual French countermove towards Metz (already captured) and Thionville.

I wonder what will happen if the AI Germans manage to get Paris and turn their wrath in my East Entente. :siffle:


Yeah, looks like some decent and more or less historical AI play if you look at the military control. It doesn't really tell anything though as long as you can't see the forces.

What would interest me more is how it actually looks on the battlefield. Could you load the turn and see how the Germans and French are positioned? Maybe the patch really does improve some things.

User avatar
Kensai
Posts: 2702
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:54 pm
Location: Freiburg, Germany

Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:18 pm

I loaded it, kind of messy to be honest, but not the disaster we were seeing in the past. I repeat: I didn't start the game with the latest release candidate which is under test but loaded it afterwards (since January 1915) thus perhaps the AI is only now starting to "behave".

On the East Front where I see them the Austrians got Belgrade and now sit there as I have created a perimeter of Serbian Armies further South. Their stack is huge but still they won't move it. Further North they fight me here and there but I move very slowly so perhaps I don't give them a chance to surprise me. In the Caucasus the Turks have made a couple of failed attacks and then came winter. My goal with this load was to have a relaxed Russian game and see what the AI is doing both in the completely automatic Western theater as well as against a relatively "careful" player in the East. Another goal is to stretch the supply lines and logistics to see if I can break it.

Here's the save game!
(but perhaps it's unplayable due to I use a later version of the game)
Attachments
Russian1915.rar
(390.08 KiB) Downloaded 58 times
Care to unify Germany as Austria? Recreate the Holy Roman Empire of the 20th Century:

Großdeutschland Mod

Are you tough enough to impersonate the Shogun and defy the Westerners? Prove it:

Shogun Defiance Mod (completed AAR)

User avatar
DrPostman
Posts: 3001
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:39 pm
Location: Memphis, TN
Contact: Website Facebook Twitter YouTube

Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:46 pm

Kensai wrote:On the East Front where I see them the Austrians got Belgrade and now sit there as I have created a perimeter of Serbian Armies further South. Their stack is huge but still they won't move it.

I'm currently playing the Eastern Entente and got kicked out of Belgrade
by a large force (not a DeathStar stack though). They kicked me out of
the next two regions before I stopped them in the forest. They've been
fairly aggressive in my game and I was surprised at how easily they took
Belgrade.
"Ludus non nisi sanguineus"

Image

User avatar
Kensai
Posts: 2702
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:54 pm
Location: Freiburg, Germany

Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:57 pm

Yep, in mine as well. They got Belgrade in like the first two months or so. All in all I am very pleased with my game so far, but as I said, I play conservatively, not dashing forward to reach Berlin or Wien. The AI Austria-Hungary has given me some interesting battles in the East. In the West I don't see what's happening but I don't really care since AI vs AI they probably cancel out their inefficiencies and what I've seen so far as progress is pretty much plausible.

Of course, if you load the game you will see, other issues remain (probably fixed if the game started with the next version when released!), such as inefficient blockades, silly naval movements, Great Britain starving, German OberOst created in the Western Front, etc.
Care to unify Germany as Austria? Recreate the Holy Roman Empire of the 20th Century:

Großdeutschland Mod

Are you tough enough to impersonate the Shogun and defy the Westerners? Prove it:

Shogun Defiance Mod (completed AAR)

User avatar
Highlandcharge
Posts: 701
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:44 am

Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:32 pm

I am eagerly awaiting this patch, please don't torture me by discussing in public ;)

Mainly I am eager to see what's been tweaked regarding the arty ROF and ammo issue... as well as the over abundance of medium and heavy arty ammo levels....

Bismarck1940
Sergeant
Posts: 73
Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:47 am

Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:32 pm

Kensai wrote:I am not at all unhappy sometimes with the AI. Started a game (v1.0) with the Russians and moved after 1914 in a Release Candidate patch (when ready for prime time it will be released, patience!). Not entirely sure when this German move happened, I have not been paying attention but it looks quite nice as a breakthrough towards Paris. Probably some things of the patch didn't even apply as this was an ongoing game, so I might have been lucky. Also notice the usual French countermove towards Metz (already captured) and Thionville.

I wonder what will happen if the AI Germans manage to get Paris and turn their wrath in my East Entente. :siffle:

Image


The AI needs to learn how immediately to take Liege. Then, based on this, looks like it will indeed be improved. I've never seen the AI take Liege.

User avatar
samba_liten
Sergeant
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:55 am

Sun Sep 21, 2014 12:50 am

Just a quick note here to confirm that leaders also end up in strange places. I had Foch and King Albert attacking German East Africa in my last game vs Athena. Perhaps some sort of seniority limit for each nation would fix this? What i mean is a mechanism to keep the most senior leaders in each nations primary theatre. Perhaps even a hit to NM if said leader leaves that theatre. Hmmm...could work for fleets too. Make sure the Japs stay east of Africa and south of the Canal.

If i'm spouting here, i do apologize. It's getting very late indeed here...

User avatar
Kensai
Posts: 2702
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:54 pm
Location: Freiburg, Germany

Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:26 am

Perhaps this can be achieved by "territorial tags" on certain eponymous units. This will somehow "lock" them in their areas of historical action, if this applied for historical reasons. For example, in real life indeed the Japanese were not interested into moving beyond East Asia, so having the AI not being able to send troops in Africa, it might be a solution. The player obviously will not have this limitation, but we could have these units get a big cohesion penalty once moved out of their historical areas. This latter mechanism exists already in many AGEOD games, so it should be considered feasible.

All things considered, I moved in my above game to April 1915 and I can tell you the AI is playing well, albeit we don't always understand it. The Austrian troops are kicking me South of Belgrade now and they have brought reinforcements in Ruthenia. The Germans have lost momentum and the French have regained the two regions just East of Paris. It seems we are about to settle to trenches in the West which is historically accurate. :)
Care to unify Germany as Austria? Recreate the Holy Roman Empire of the 20th Century:

Großdeutschland Mod

Are you tough enough to impersonate the Shogun and defy the Westerners? Prove it:

Shogun Defiance Mod (completed AAR)

Return to “To End All Wars”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests