StephenT
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:07 pm

minipol wrote:Belgium only has an army led by Albert I of power 226, counting roughly 25.000 men.
If I check my books, the Germans attacked Belgium with a force of about 600.000 men vs 110.000 Belgian troops.
The Belgian army was 47,500 strong at the outbreak of war. They were able to mobilise up to a total of 177,000 (of whom 62,000 were fortress troops, 115,000 field troops). However, many of those troops (over half) were police or militia, the Garde Civique, who played no part in the August fighting.


James D Burns wrote:Yeah Belgium does feel too weak, and my first impressions are the Belgian army is hard coded to get destroyed on turn 2 if you play the August start.
Remember that by turn two the German army ought (historically) to be already crossing the Aisne and be just 70 km/45 miles from Paris. (The Battle of the Marne happens in turn three.) By the end of turn two all of Belgium south of the River Schelde ought to be in German hands, with what remains of the Belgian army (80,000 men historically) besieged in Antwerpen.

Nico165
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:12 pm

minipol wrote:- the French rail lines need to open on turn 1. I wasn't able to rail troops in from France the first turn

I think this is to simulate France willingness to attack in Alsace-Lorraine. With no train, you can do nothing else than attack there with the first, second and third armies on the first turn if you want to cause some trouble to the german armies. WW1 Gold had a system of mandatory attacks to prevent the player from using his armies elsewhere.

- the BEF should be unlocked immediately

I dont think so. Right now the BEF unlocks at the second turn, and if you move it by rail it can arrive in Mons the 23rd, the exact same day it did historically. If it could do so two weeks earlier, that would be an unfair advantage for the wetsern entente.

- the Germans should be stationed outside Belgium on tun 1 instead of inside.

Perhaps this + using one week/turn in august as in the Tanneberg scenario would give a more realist start and outcome. But the AI must be capable of a proper invasion. If CP AI does it wrong in the first few turns, the whole campaign changes.

- Belgian troop total needs to be seriously upped to historical levels. See my previous post

Yeah, as a Belgian, I feel mistreated ;) And the ahistorical retreat in Namur too. But let's keep the game balance in mind.

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Ace
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:22 pm

Since some of you questioned why rail pool is limited to all sides in the first few turns, this is why:

Without it, choice of "wrong" warplan would be easy to circumvent and "game" the system. BEF could be railed to Brussels by August 5, and French armies supposed to advance to Alsace Lorraine could be easily redirected to Belgium by the end of 1st turn. That would not be realistic IMO.

Similar restrictions apply to all sides. Rail restrictions for the historically bad plan particularly hurt the Austrians.

Jomini
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:39 pm

I'm somewhat at a loss as to how I am supposed to handle front lines.
Currently with the default deployment of army-stacks centred around major cities you leave gaps in your front line through which it seems an enemy stack could just march to bypass fortifications and wreak havoc in your hinterland.

I have now sent separate leaderless corps to fill the gaps, however that also seems like a bad idea since they aren't under control by GHQ. So if they are engaged no neighbouring army stacks could march to the sound of the guns and they might be defeated in detail.
A friend mentioned that major armies might emit a zone of control into neighbouring provinces, so enemies can't just march through. However the manual doesn't say anything about zone of control mechanics in TEAW.

Another minor thing: Please bring back holding Ctrl to show manpower, it's so much more convenient than hovering over the power indicator.

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James D Burns
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:39 pm

StephenT wrote:Remember that by turn two the German army ought (historically) to be already crossing the Aisne and be just 70 km/45 miles from Paris. (The Battle of the Marne happens in turn three.) By the end of turn two all of Belgium south of the River Schelde ought to be in German hands, with what remains of the Belgian army (80,000 men historically) besieged in Antwerpen.


Right but the remnants of the army retreat to Namur not towards Antwerp, so they will be destroyed. After that the only way to be able to field an historical army capable of numbering 80,000 men would be to rebuild the destroyed divisions. Only Gent and Antwerp can build divisions after turn 2 and neither of those cities will last long enough to allow construction of new units to complete.

So what we have now is the Belgian army completely knocked out of the war just so Germany can gain a few provinces on their drive towards Paris in the opening turns. If players could designate a retreat path towards Gent or something instead of towards the trap at Namur this wouldn’t be an issue with me as I have no problem with the Belgian army getting smashed. My problem is with the hard coded result of the Belgian army being destroyed completely.

Jim

minipol
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:42 pm

StephenT wrote:The Belgian army was 47,500 strong at the outbreak of war. They were able to mobilise up to a total of 177,000 (of whom 62,000 were fortress troops, 115,000 field troops). However, many of those troops (over half) were police or militia, the Garde Civique, who played no part in the August fighting.


I find different numbers (several sources).
As you correctly state there is the Army and the "Burgerwacht" (Garde Civique).
The army itself consisted of the troops in the forts of about 90.000 troops and a field army of +-110.000 troops.
These were troops not Garde Civique.
I can't find the 47.500 troops you mention in any of my books or even online sources.
If Belgium had only 47.500 troops in the field, they couldn't have delayed the advance like they did in RL.

StephenT wrote:Remember that by turn two the German army ought (historically) to be already crossing the Aisne and be just 70 km/45 miles from Paris. (The Battle of the Marne happens in turn three.) By the end of turn two all of Belgium south of the River Schelde ought to be in German hands, with what remains of the Belgian army (80,000 men historically) besieged in Antwerpen.

That's correct, but as it's now, I can't see 80.000 men getting there the way it's setup.
They ended up with 75.000 men behind the river Yser.

@Nico
The reason why I say the BEF should unlock immediately is that British troops landed in Ostend on 27 august and the BEF was retreating from Mons on august 23rd.
The way it's now setup, with the Germans already in Belgium and the BEF unable to move, you can't get the BEF there in time to simulate what really happened.
You can plot a move in turn 2, but that's already late august. By the time they get there it's early September.

It does all seem a bit of because of the way turn are processed, I get that, but I still feel some of the tweaks I proposed will work, as they won't stop the huge German
offensive, but be more effective in slowing them down.

@Ace
I don't undersand how the BEF could be railed to Brussels bu August 15. I must misunderstand the way turns are represented then.
The first turn is early August meaning 1 to 15 august. You can only plot the move then.
The BEF will arrive during the resolution of the turn. At the end, this means late august?

@Jim
I totally agree.

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H Gilmer3
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:43 pm

Jomini wrote:I'm somewhat at a loss as to how I am supposed to handle front lines.
Currently with the default deployment of army-stacks centred around major cities you leave gaps in your front line through which it seems an enemy stack could just march to bypass fortifications and wreak havoc in your hinterland.

I have now sent separate leaderless corps to fill the gaps, however that also seems like a bad idea since they aren't under control by GHQ. So if they are engaged no neighbouring army stacks could march to the sound of the guns and they might be defeated in detail.
A friend mentioned that major armies might emit a zone of control into neighbouring provinces, so enemies can't just march through. However the manual doesn't say anything about zone of control mechanics in TEAW.

Another minor thing: Please bring back holding Ctrl to show manpower, it's so much more convenient than hovering over the power indicator.


In my game, I guess I didn't have that issue because the Schlieffen Plan wasn't chosen by the CP. I do know that the Germans did leave a gap and I pushed some elements of several armies through and have taken some cities. I'm sieging a strategic city right now - Mainz. The Germans don't seem to have a response to it yet. They went with the Moltke plan which I understand means they are concentrating on the Russians.

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Ace
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:47 pm

Jomini wrote:I'm somewhat at a loss as to how I am supposed to handle front lines.
Currently with the default deployment of army-stacks centred around major cities you leave gaps in your front line through which it seems an enemy stack could just march to bypass fortifications and wreak havoc in your hinterland.

I have now sent separate leaderless corps to fill the gaps, however that also seems like a bad idea since they aren't under control by GHQ. So if they are engaged no neighbouring army stacks could march to the sound of the guns and they might be defeated in detail.
A friend mentioned that major armies might emit a zone of control into neighbouring provinces, so enemies can't just march through. However the manual doesn't say anything about zone of control mechanics in TEAW.

Another minor thing: Please bring back holding Ctrl to show manpower, it's so much more convenient than hovering over the power indicator.


All stacks commanded by ** generals will MTSG (They are Corps attached to nearest Army without the trouble of manually attaching anything)

AndrewKurtz
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:48 pm

Holy Diver wrote:Can someone compare this game with World War One Gold? One of these games I would like to buy but not sure which.


I own both. Other than the same topic and similar historical concepts (such as picking a battle plan), the games are completely different.

Personally, I'd recommend TEAW hands down. The engine is more proven and the game will receive more attention over the coming year.

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Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:49 pm

James D Burns wrote:Right but the remnants of the army retreat to Namur not towards Antwerp, so they will be destroyed. After that the only way to be able to field an historical army capable of numbering 80,000 men would be to rebuild the destroyed divisions. Only Gent and Antwerp can build divisions after turn 2 and neither of those cities will last long enough to allow construction of new units to complete.

So what we have now is the Belgian army completely knocked out of the war just so Germany can gain a few provinces on their drive towards Paris in the opening turns. If players could designate a retreat path towards Gent or something instead of towards the trap at Namur this wouldn’t be an issue with me as I have no problem with the Belgian army getting smashed. My problem is with the hard coded result of the Belgian army being destroyed completely.

Jim


Actually, Antwerp fort is not easy to take if you plan going onto Paris. Did you managed to take Antwerp?

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James D Burns
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:59 pm

Ace wrote:Actually, Antwerp fort is not easy to take if you plan going onto Paris. Did you managed to take Antwerp?


Haven’t played CP yet, but in my current western entente game I’m 4 or more turns in and the first divisions I built at Antwerp have yet to finish, so no way will I be able to rebuild the Belgian army before Antwerp falls. Vs. a human I doubt the first set of divisions would have time to finish, but vs. the AI I may get 2-4 divisions rebuilt I think.

I base this on the fact I have Sarrbourg already breached twice with the French as of turn 4 (its turn 5 in my game now) and only await leader activation to assault the city. So I assume the Germans can breach Antwerp just as quickly as it’s a level 2 fort as well.

Quick question about leaders. If my capital is gone (Brussels) what happens if I pay the huge cost to bring in more leaders? Do they appear at an allied capital? Do they simply never show up? I don’t want to pay the huge price to buy them only to find out I wasted my money. I do wish the price was a per leader basis, the fact I have to pay for the full option that normally buys six leaders but only have a few leaders (2 or 3 I think) total really makes doing it painful.

Jim

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Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:00 pm

minipol wrote:I find different numbers (several sources).

@Nico
The reason why I say the BEF should unlock immediately is that British troops landed in Ostend on 27 august and the BEF was retreating from Mons on august 23rd.
The way it's now setup, with the Germans already in Belgium and the BEF unable to move, you can't get the BEF there in time to simulate what really happened.
You can plot a move in turn 2, but that's already late august. By the time they get there it's early September.
It does all seem a bit of because of the way turn are processed, I get that, but I still feel some of the tweaks I proposed will work, as they won't stop the huge German
offensive, but be more effective in slowing them down.

@Ace
I don't undersand how the BEF could be railed to Brussels bu August 15. I must misunderstand the way turns are represented then.
The first turn is early August meaning 1 to 15 august. You can only plot the move then.
The BEF will arrive during the resolution of the turn. At the end, this means late august?


If 1st trn is Aug 1, and BEF is unlocked and rail points are available, there would be nothing stopping you from plotting BEF rail movement to Brussels.

Similar, on turn 2, there is nothing stopping you to rail BEF to Mons to be there around Aug, 23th. Turns are simultaneous, if they are plotted to Mons by rail, they 'll be there before the end of the turn.

Capybara
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:02 pm

Ace wrote:All stacks commanded by ** generals will MTSG (They are Corps attached to nearest Army without the trouble of manually attaching anything)


Does that mean that I need an additional ** leader if my corps is composed of two corps merged with division (I do not know if I'm being clear)?

Nico165
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:03 pm

minipol wrote:@Nico
The reason why I say the BEF should unlock immediately is that British troops landed in Ostend on 27 august and the BEF was retreating from Mons on august 23rd.
The way it's now setup, with the Germans already in Belgium and the BEF unable to move, you can't get the BEF there in time to simulate what really happened.
You can plot a move in turn 2, but that's already late august. By the time they get there it's early September.

It does all seem a bit of because of the way turn are processed, I get that, but I still feel some of the tweaks I proposed will work, as they won't stop the huge German
offensive, but be more effective in slowing them down.

@Ace
I don't undersand how the BEF could be railed to Brussels bu August 15. I must misunderstand the way turns are represented then.
The first turn is early August meaning 1 to 15 august. You can only plot the move then.
The BEF will arrive during the resolution of the turn. At the end, this means late august?


With each day simulated indivdually, you can send the BEF to Mons by rail at the beginning of turn two. It will arrive on the 23rd. If at the same day, a german army attacks there, the BEF might retreat historically into France. All of this in the same turn.

So you can have an historical outcome for the BEF with the current setup. Simply, it might not happen so often because you need the exact same circumstances to have the same outcome. Thats the beauty of the game.

Only problem might be the initial setup in Calais and the lock in the first turn. But if that permits an historical outcome within the constraints of the game, it's all good for me.

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Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:07 pm

James D Burns wrote:Haven’t played CP yet, but in my current western entente game I’m 4 or more turns in and the first divisions I built at Antwerp have yet to finish, so no way will I be able to rebuild the Belgian army before Antwerp falls. Vs. a human I doubt the first set of divisions would have time to finish, but vs. the AI I may get 2-4 divisions rebuilt I think.

I base this on the fact I have Sarrbourg already breached twice with the French as of turn 4 (its turn 5 in my game now) and only await leader activation to assault the city. So I assume the Germans can breach Antwerp just as quickly as it’s a level 2 fort as well.

Quick question about leaders. If my capital is gone (Brussels) what happens if I pay the huge cost to bring in more leaders? Do they appear at an allied capital? Do they simply never show up? I don’t want to pay the huge price to buy them only to find out I wasted my money. I do wish the price was a per leader basis, the fact I have to pay for the full option that normally buys six leaders but only have a few leaders (2 or 3 I think) total really makes doing it painful.

Jim


If CP player is serious about taking Paris, he can forget Antwerp. I never tried purchasing when my available locked leader count was low because of this.

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Ace
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:07 pm

Capybara wrote:Does that mean that I need an additional ** leader if my corps is composed of two corps merged with division (I do not know if I'm being clear)?


no

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Templer
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:08 pm

I did not want to wait any longer, I could not wait any longer. I have become weak and jumped on. :)
I'm pleasant surpised so far.
Now I will wait how dedicated AGEOD take care on his latest product.
I'm still disappointed about Pride of Nations. :(
Greetings
Templer

gekkoguy82
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:10 pm

Jomini wrote:.....
Another minor thing: Please bring back holding Ctrl to show manpower, it's so much more convenient than hovering over the power indicator.


Seconded :)

Jomini
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:48 pm

Another quick question: Where do you watch turn replays in TEAW? The button doesn't seem to be in the same place as in previous games.

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Erik Springelkamp
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:35 pm

Just did the tutorial, but it looks very good. Some nice interface improvements to reduce clutter in this very complex game.

Minor, but annoying, glitch discovered: in the post-battle screen, scrolling down the unit list doesn't work when dragging the scroll bar in the middle, only by using mouse wheel. This is annoying on my laptop, because when mouse scrolling on the touch pad it is difficult to just scroll one click, so down-scrolling is difficult to control. When dragging the central scrollbar would word, it would be much easier to step through the units in the screen with a touch-pad.

Also, Jomini's question about the replay ++.

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Ace
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:54 pm

The replay is the same as in cw2, you have to keyboard select it by pressing ¸ key and typing loadreplay in the box.

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James D Burns
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:58 pm

Ace wrote:The replay is the same as in cw2, you have to keyboard select it by pressing ¸ key and typing loadreplay in the box.


Just to further clarify a bit, this is the tilde key (top left of keyboard left of the 1 key) not a comma key he is referring to.

Jim

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Templer
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:00 pm

Ace wrote:The replay is the same as in cw2, you have to keyboard select it by pressing ¸ key and typing loadreplay in the box.

How uncomfortable! :mad:
Greetings

Templer

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Ace
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:03 pm

Can't argue on that one.

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Florent
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:12 pm

"Posted by ACE.

" Since some of you questioned why rail pool is limited to all sides in the first few turns, this is why:

Without it, choice of "wrong" warplan would be easy to circumvent and "game" the system. BEF could be railed to Brussels by August 5, and French armies supposed to advance to Alsace Lorraine could be easily redirected to Belgium by the end of 1st turn. That would not be realistic IMO.

Similar restrictions apply to all sides. Rail restrictions for the historically bad plan particularly hurt the Austrians."

Another reason is that the trains were massively used to send the Reservists in their Corps, those locked 1,2 or more turns thus this is nicely done. :thumbsup:

Nevertheless there is enough to correct somewhat the 2nd Army disaster for Austrians. Here you have the choice and enough to send it or part of it in the West or East. :D

I play the Russians and verified today the 2nd Army dilemn and for these 2 countries, there is a problem :bonk: with for example 5 Army with 5 Corps which is confusing. 5 army with V corps is better. The Serbs are wriiten as I Army and 1 Corps for example.

There are numerous doubles, i mean the same corps with different armies, at least 2 times with the russians and one with Austria which have 2 XII corps ( 12) in 5 and 2 Armies, actually in the 5 Army this is 13rd corps as read recently in " A Mad Catastrophe " by Wawro.

Also i noted that 9th Russian army is locked 4 turns, it should be 2 => Available September 4th thus 1st september in game terms with 18 th Corps not 28, you have also forgotten the 3rd Caucasian Corps with Divisions 21 and 52 as well as Guards Corps with Divisions 1st guards and 2nd Guards.

Actually 3rd Caucasian and Guards Coprs were given to 4th Army which gave 14 th Corps to 9th Army but is is better to put them in 9th to avoid a reorganization.

The Graphics are the best as well as the map but like ACW 2 this Ageod Next Gen or so as many things are different, and i did the Tutorial to help.

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FroBodine
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:26 pm

Jomini wrote:I'm somewhat at a loss as to how I am supposed to handle front lines.
Currently with the default deployment of army-stacks centred around major cities you leave gaps in your front line through which it seems an enemy stack could just march to bypass fortifications and wreak havoc in your hinterland.

I have now sent separate leaderless corps to fill the gaps, however that also seems like a bad idea since they aren't under control by GHQ. So if they are engaged no neighbouring army stacks could march to the sound of the guns and they might be defeated in detail.
A friend mentioned that major armies might emit a zone of control into neighbouring provinces, so enemies can't just march through. However the manual doesn't say anything about zone of control mechanics in TEAW.


This is a very good question that kind of got lost in this thread. I would also like to hear from some of the pros how we are supposed to form a solid front line in this game. Is there a zone of control that prohibits the enemy from sneaking through a one or two location hole to get behind my lines?

I am having a hard time understanding how to form these solid trench lines that were the major part of WW1. This is not a hex game where we can simply fill each hex with some troops. Do we eventually get enough armies to fill every location in a line and form a solid wall?

What am I missing, please?

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Tamas
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:36 pm

FroBodine wrote:This is a very good question that kind of got lost in this thread. I would also like to hear from some of the pros how we are supposed to form a solid front line in this game. Is there a zone of control that prohibits the enemy from sneaking through a one or two location hole to get behind my lines?

I am having a hard time understanding how to form these solid trench lines that were the major part of WW1. This is not a hex game where we can simply fill each hex with some troops. Do we eventually get enough armies to fill every location in a line and form a solid wall?

What am I missing, please?


You do need to build new units, for the Eastern Front in particular. You do not have a zone of control which goes to neighbouring regions, but you do have the system "marching to the sound of guns" which means that neighbouring stacks will help each other out. So you do not have to have each stack capable of stopping an offensive completely on its own, but ideally you want a continuous frontline once you run the risk of opening up too much for the enemy.

There are exceptions of course depending where your frontline is, most notably there are impassable mountain sections and such.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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James D Burns
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:46 pm

The problem I am seeing with the MTSG issue in game is if a stack is defeated, it and the supporting troops all get retreated to the same region. So what should have been a one region breakthrough turns into a three region blowout. Supporting troops should return to their region of origin not flee with the defeated armies.

And just to emphasize how crazy it can get, I had a British Corps from Lille advance to the Tournai region. In the same turn a German army from the Alost region also advanced to Tournai and a battle was fought. The small Belgian army in Gent reacted to the battle and then retreated to Lille with the British army leaving Gent defenseless…

Jim

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Templer
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:08 pm

The variety of units seems bigger than other AGEOD games (Except maybe for Pride of Nations).
Greetings

Templer

bob.
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Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:19 pm

Anyone wanting to share his experience with the Ottomans? How did your Eastern and Caucasus campaigns develop? Can a Gallipoli happen and is it a sensible choice for the Allies?

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