Carnium wrote:There is no French/British/Portuguese intervention.
(snip)
Gibraltar is there too.
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caranorn wrote:For Britain the question would even be. On which side to intervene?
FENRIS wrote:I think you can't see an English or French intervention only in a "What if" campaign :
1. you have to CHANGE totally the politics and goals of this two nations in the decade 1930
2. France and Great Britain wanted "peace at all cost" in the pre-world war 2 and if they don't do an intervention in Tchécoslovaquie, they surely don't go in Spain.
FOARP wrote:You don't see a possible intervention from the UK/France on the side of the Republicans even if 1) The nationalists do something crazy like demanding Gibraltar or giving broad concessions to the German (permanent basing rights etc.) in return for more support, 2) France got a radical left-wing government, or 3) the war carried on into late 1939 and ran concurrently with WW2? This seems a bit straight-jacketed.
I'm still interested in getting this game, but I'd like to see some replay-ability - and a-historical interventions are a great way of doing that. Right now I see people bragging about how they can win as the Nationalists in 13 turns - throwing in more foreign forces against them is a great way of making the game harder for experienced players.
FOARP wrote:I'm still interested in getting this game, but I'd like to see some replay-ability - and a-historical interventions are a great way of doing that. Right now I see people bragging about how they can win as the Nationalists in 13 turns - throwing in more foreign forces against them is a great way of making the game harder for experienced players.
Carnium wrote:I HIGHLY recommend this book to anyone interested in SCW:
http://books.google.com/books?id=PtPelshBWCMC&dq=battle+for+spain&hl=sl&sa=X&ei=-ntBUrj3CYmStQb8o4GIAw&redir_esc=y
Carnium wrote:Including a few what ifs would certainly be interesting for a new campaign, but IMHO for the historical grand campaign we need to stick to the (cruel) reality and that is:
- UK government told the French that they would not support them if they decide to (somehow) intervene on the Republican side. They tried everything in their power to prevent a(n) (European) war, by pleasing Hitler and turning a blind eye to the Italian "conquests". If the UK government went as far as sacrificing its best and most trusted ally in the East (Czechoslovakia - which was willing to fight and had fortification much like Maginot line, excellent Škoda factories etc), what on earth would they support Spanish "red" Republic?
Have in mind that the European democracies were way too afraid of Communism than Fascism and Nazism.
- France was in deep crisis in mid-late 30s. Let-Right frictions, government changes and the prospect of another German invasion. They were in no state of intervening with their armed forces as Germany and Italy could and would take advantage on it immediately! How long would the French lasted without UK help is a wild guess, as it took the Germans 1 month and 12 days to defeat them in 1940 and that was with BEF. One could argue that Wermacht was not (yet) ready in 1936-1939, but neither were the allies.
- USA could help, but Church and right wing industrialists have blocked any attempt at doing so , plus... surprise surprise... the Nationalists bought a large quantities of US lorries. Which brings us to the last point...
- everybody wanted to profit form the Spanish pity. Latest research has revealed that even the Germans were selling arms to the Republic (via Göring for personal profit). Shocking, isn't it
Foreign intervention in wars have been the same 200-300 years ago, as they are now... no one will help you, if you don't have something to offer.
I HIGHLY recommend this book to anyone interested in SCW:
http://books.google.com/books?id=PtPelshBWCMC&dq=battle+for+spain&hl=sl&sa=X&ei=-ntBUrj3CYmStQb8o4GIAw&redir_esc=y
About Gibraltar. Franco did demand it and the Germans were more than willing to help him. But he sent such "shopping list" to the Germans that Hitler freaked out and cancelled Operation Felix.
Carnium wrote:- UK government, what on earth would they support Spanish "red" Republic?
Have in mind that the European democracies were way too afraid of Communism than Fascism and Nazism.
ERISS wrote:'democracies' were far more afraid of democracy than of Communism, that's why England prefered to give Spain to Franco, or to Stalin, than to people/anarchists.
At first, there were almost no 'Commies' in Spain: it is for the England 'preventing intervention' blocus (letting nationalist foreign help go) that 'republicans' (anarchists allied to socialists) asked for the Russian 'help'.
FENRIS wrote:Thank you Carnium for your help, your english is much better than mine to explain the situation.
Carnium wrote:UK aka Chamberlain did everything in its power to prevent a new war, but in the end they got the diplomatic humiliation and war.
caranorn wrote:Maybe control of the french border regions could give some aid to the republicans (something like a bit of WS, Money and Manpower for an RGD playable on San Sebastian or Gerona (not playable every turn), cost would be quite a bit of EP, all to represent additional fictional internationalist volunteers allowed to cross the Pirenean passes)...
Maybe a similar RGD for the Nationalists along the Portuguese border...
"Of course what if scenarii will be interesting and will expend the lifespan of the game, but on a short term, I would like to focus back to this suggestion which I think is quite interesting (and much less speculative). "
Carnium wrote:Including a few what ifs would certainly be interesting for a new campaign, but IMHO for the historical grand campaign we need to stick to the (cruel) reality and that is:
- UK government told the French that they would not support them if they decide to (somehow) intervene on the Republican side. They tried everything in their power to prevent a(n) (European) war, by pleasing Hitler and turning a blind eye to the Italian "conquests". If the UK government went as far as sacrificing its best and most trusted ally in the East (Czechoslovakia - which was willing to fight and had fortification much like Maginot line, excellent Škoda factories etc), what on earth would they support Spanish "red" Republic?
Have in mind that the European democracies were way too afraid of Communism than Fascism and Nazism.
- France was in deep crisis in mid-late 30s. Let-Right frictions, government changes and the prospect of another German invasion. They were in no state of intervening with their armed forces as Germany and Italy could and would take advantage on it immediately! How long would the French lasted without UK help is a wild guess, as it took the Germans 1 month and 12 days to defeat them in 1940 and that was with BEF. One could argue that Wermacht was not (yet) ready in 1936-1939, but neither were the allies.
- USA could help, but Church and right wing industrialists have blocked any attempt at doing so , plus... surprise surprise... the Nationalists bought a large quantities of US lorries. Which brings us to the last point...
- everybody wanted to profit form the Spanish pity. Latest research has revealed that even the Germans were selling arms to the Republic (via Göring for personal profit). Shocking, isn't it
Foreign intervention in wars have been the same 200-300 years ago, as they are now... no one will help you, if you don't have something to offer.
I HIGHLY recommend this book to anyone interested in SCW:
http://books.google.com/books?id=PtPelshBWCMC&dq=battle+for+spain&hl=sl&sa=X&ei=-ntBUrj3CYmStQb8o4GIAw&redir_esc=y
About Gibraltar. Franco did demand it and the Germans were more than willing to help him. But he sent such "shopping list" to the Germans that Hitler freaked out and cancelled Operation Felix.
ERISS wrote:But the bourgeois power obeys to the bankers, who need both wars and peace alike.
That's like for Hitler, it is for UK bankers that Nazi party survived once it was a small party, UK government did not forbidden this help preventing nazi oblivion.
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