Fast Move Trick

[tripax]

There are two versions of this trick, I do version 2 regularly, I've never done version 1 before my current game. I don't think they are too gamey because movement is so hard to control in this game, but they are probably not WAD.

Version 1: In my current game (if you are not Straight Arrow, you can see the situation in the aar, here), Beauregard was in Manassas with about 30,000, but I had flanked him and put my main army under McDowell in Culpepper. I had two divisions nearby under Foster and sent them towards Manasses on a trip that would take 17 days. I left Falmouth open-ish, so that Beauregard would have the option to flee (see: Art of War). If he did, Foster would arrive in Manasses the next turn on day two. If he didn't, I'd cancel the move (see version 2). Beauregard obliged and moved into Falmouth. So I let Foster finish his trip. Beauregard's move was a feint, trying to get me to attack Manassas, which he intended to move back into immediately. Even though the Confederacy has an advantage of higher MC and strategic, Foster had an unseen head start (replay doesn't work for me, I don't know if Straight Arrow could see the start of the move) and got into Manassas first. I hadn't thought it might be a feint until the last minute, but I did ask Straight Arrow, and when he sent the turn back, he said it was. I haven't opened the turn yet and don't know what happened next, but presumably Foster and Beauregard had a fight.

Version 2: Moving from Tuscon into the main map can be tough in the winter/mud, a trip in these conditions even with full cohesion might take 32 days (or even more than 45 since the troops can get so tired and an initial long estimate can get longer) or something; but very fast in clear weather, taking 17. It is often best when you have a depot in Tuscon to wait for the weather to clear before moving east. In such a case, on one turn, tell your stack to make the (32+ day) trip. During that turn it gets 15 days closer to its goal. On the next turn, cancel the move, but don't do anything else (so don't move your stack into the structure if you are out of it and don't move it out if you are "in" it, and don't add anything to or remove anything from the stack - although you can change the disposition). Now on the next turn when weather is good (it could be turn 3 if you are lucky), order the move again. Now your move will take two days and you will lose barely any cohesion (since you've only been marching two days, not 17).

I didn't realize how sneaky this can be until just now, hearing that it worked in Manasses (again, I haven't loaded the turn and am not sure how well it worked). I think Europa Universalis now has it so that when you start a move, after a certain amount of time you cannot undo it without reaching your destination first. What do you think? Is this gamey?

I do some other gamey things, but try to limit myself, although I am somewhat personally ashamed of some tricks I do (for instance, I'm embarrassed that I use redeploy for generals and for support units like HQs and Hospitals, but I still do it, and I am not embarrassed to use river movement because I only use it behind enemy lines - although in this game I did lose a garrison militia moving to Island 10 to an enemy naval stack since the Island is at the front line).

[Straight Arrow]

A very nice move tripax; I thought for sure Beauregard would march back to Manassas and slide into the trenches before anyone else could get there.

I wrecked the rails before pulling back to make it look like a scorched earth retreat. But to my sorrow, being sure I would take it back, the depot was left intact. Enjoy the mountain of fine pig tail twist baccy we left behind.

No, no combat for some reason. The tool tip said we would make it in 11 days. But after the turn was run, the boys were still 4 days short of reaching Manassas. Beauregard didn't help matters by issuing conflicting orders.

Very well done, very fox like.

[Teatime]

I use version 2 in my own games quite a bit .. specifically for the box marches .. you have to spend a month or so (sitting in the wilderness) letting them get their cohesion back up but it also means that if the stack arrives into a fight then it will have high cohesion rather than zero .. those box marches can be brutal and even worse if the weather changes half way there

[tripax]

Thanks for the votes of approval.

[GraniteStater]

Not gamey at all. It's understanding the rules and mechanics (experience helps) and using them to best effect. Myself, I kinda used these, but your small essay here is highly instructive.

So, thanks!

[tripax]

If someone is more succinct than I, a version of this could go on Straight Arrow's points to know posts.

[Captain_Orso]

I believe the mechanics in play here are basically so that once you have started to move a stack from one region into another during the first turn, which will take more than one turn to complete, if you inadvertently cancel the move started on the first turn, you can still re-plot the same move without the 'time already spent moving' having been negated.

That the previous 'time already spent moving' is not also canceled, if that stack's move is canceled before arriving in its target region, and a turn is executed, is I believe actually an oversight, and might be considered a bug.

Pros and Cons

On the one hand, if your stack has not yet left the region, regardless of how long it has been marching, it is still considered to be in its starting region, and if you canceled the move, and subsequently plotted a move in the opposite directions, the stack would start at zero for the new move, and not have to counter-march the days it was already moving.

On the other hand--and this was discussed during alpha- and beta-testing, if the 'time already spent moving' were 'saved', it would allow for a moving stack to 'rest' while on the march, and not have to push on until reaching its target region, all the while losing more and more cohesion, which might actually prevent the stack from ever reaching its destination. But since the unit has not yet actually left the start region, it would benefit from structures--depot, fort, etc.--in the start region as if it had not moved at all. Since under specific circumstances, the stack could simply drop back into the fort/stockade/depot were it to be attacked, it could be considered a bit of a cheat.

[GraniteStater]

Naah, it's cool. You're already en route. You've travelled that far, why can't it be 'in the bank'?

[Cardinal Ape]

I'm leaning toward it being a bug. I'm guessing that the intent behind the design of allowing a force to save their movement progress is to counteract the accidental canceling of movement orders. If it didn't save and you messed up, you would have to reload the turn and start over from the beginning. Quite similar to accidentally losing your entrenchments - very annoying.

A force that benefits from entrenchments and also has stored movement points in the bank makes me think of something out of the Flintstones. I picture soldiers lifting their entrenchments up around their waist and walking around with them, like how one would use a barrel for clothes in cartoons.

Tripax's use was fairly mild. Potentially one could save movement indefinitely, could they not? If it doesn't go away after one turn, then it won't after 50. I imagine one could use horrible weather to store more days of movement than it would take to move into the region in clear weather. Thus producing the ability to sudden strike in one day with fully rested troops. In a weird way it is like simulating a rail movement in hostile territory with no rails.

Taking advantage of an obscure mechanic that is outside the area of its intended use is the definition of an exploit, no? I don't mean that being being gamey or using exploits is a bad thing, I do that stuff too. I just mean that it can be difficult for developers to find and fix exploits because users tend not to report them. The users perceive it to be a intended feature and not a bug. Though, as Koala Khan stated, the devs knew of the issue and decide not to change it, probably deemed too much work for something that obscure and rarely used, so it is here to stay. Really, it is only unfair if your opponent doesn't know such a thing exists, so kudos to tripax for telling his opponent it does exist.


@SA and tripax, Are you guys playing your game with the same activation settings? I see SA mentioned his general issued conflicting orders, which happens with veteran activation. In tripax's AAR I see pics with generals having brown inactive envelopes which happens with non-veteran activation.


P.S. Koala Khan is my entry into the unannounced and long running forum contest to call Captain_Orso by another name that basically means the same thing.

[Teatime]

Personally I think Tactic 1 is a legitimate use of mechanics. Especially given it is a turned based game with 15 day turns ... It would be nice to have an idea about army movements with an ability to react (i.e cavalry scouting and screening) .. but simulating that would be a nightmare.

I think if you removed the saved progress on box movement that would make it near impossible to actually move anything through those boxes. It's tough to watch remaining march time increase over time but it is open to exploit for sure. Cancel a march 2 turns in and suddenly you are back at start point ready to defend against that surprise hostile Indian appearance.

A possible solution may be to have a fixed cost for box movement, perhaps 2 turns + 50% cohesion loss, which once started cannot be halted or to have sub boxes which each take 1 turn to reach, again with fixed cohesion loss

For those that like their history it's worth taking the time to read as to how the California Column actually pulled off that march, a 2000 man column moving in small groups so they didn't exhaust water or forage along the way

[DrPostman]

With travel times often so extreme out West and weather always horrible I don't
see this as much as a bug as a counter to the way the game works poorly. I've
seen it take up to 2 months to travel to Tuscon from El Paso. That's ridiculous. It
routinely takes up to 80 days to travel from Albuquerque to Denver! To me that
doesn't seem very realistic. It took the California Column about 120 days to get
from near Los Angeles to El Paso. That's with fighting several skirmishes and 2
battles. Perhaps the game could find a way to mimic how they broke up into
smaller groups for the trip. I'm not sure, but the way the game is often takes
way too long to travel distances that aren't that far.

[Durk]

Interesting discussion. I think of this a how the game functions as real life. A march is taking some time, so rest and improve the march and the consequences of the march.

[Straight Arrow]

If someone is more succinct than I, a version of this could go on Straight Arrow's points to know posts.

Done; it's under movement in Part 1.

[tripax]

@SA and tripax, Are you guys playing your game with the same activation settings? I see SA mentioned his general issued conflicting orders, which happens with veteran activation. In tripax's AAR I see pics with generals having brown inactive envelopes which happens with non-veteran activation.

I didn't notice that, I'll check. I should have veteran selected. SA runs the turns.