How to move a Rock?

[Straight Arrow]

In my current and fast coming to an end game, there was a desperate need to apply pressure on Federal troops in AL and GA and thus hopefully relieving pressure in North Carolina.

But I had a real problem in trying to put this into practice. The Rock of Chickamauga stood in my way and he was dug in up to his eye balls. I had had to come up with a fast way of prying him loose.

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Here’s what I came up with: Pope would hit Lyon on day 9, but first Lee would march to Pope’s springboard area, from there he would be in place to support Pope by marching to the sound of the guns on day 8; AJ, with his own army, would gingerly stick his head into the trap at Montgomery on day 9, thus keeping Thomas busy and preventing him from helping Lyon by MTTSOTG.

If everyone moved on time, a slender reed - I know, I know – Lee and Pope would hit a target barely dug in with 4,000 to 1,200 odds in their favor.

Needless to say it didn’t work. At the time, I did not know that CW 2 game mechanics did not allow the cutting of support.

And, other than losing 4 NM to connect AJ’s forces to Lee’s, I don’t know what else I could have done.

Hence my cry for help -

How could one break into Atlanta and Chattanooga from this position? Is it possible to move the Rock without shattering my army in the process?

[Cardinal Ape]

It looks like you have G. W. Smith coming doing from near Atlanta. Couldn't you give AJ's forces to him? Hmm, I'll hazard a guess that this may be news to you:

You can hand over AJ's force to Smith without losing 4NM. Remove AJ's army command. Assign Smith as a corp under Lee. Give AJ his army command back.

As long as commanders get their army posts back before the end of the turn you can rearrange them to your suiting without losing NM. The NM and VP are only lost when the 'end turn' button is hit, not during the turn.

Keep in mind that when you remove an army command that all of it's attached corps will be detached. So if you do rearrange your command structure then don't forget to reattached your corps to their armies.

Also, you have some incredible tenacity Mr. Arrow. I think most people would have given up such a game.

[W.Barksdale]

Why did you feel you needed to attack Montgomery? Your forces seem very spread out for an offensive in the area. You have a strong defensive position at the Selma, Kingston, Columbiana area. Use your interior lines to shift troops where needed. You have no scouts around Atlanta. Perhaps Federal forces were weak there as it looks like they are concentrated at Montgomery.

[Gray Fox]

Okay, be calm. I can make you into as good a military leader as I am in probably way less than two generations.

First off, if I understand your plan correctly, Pope is attacking across the Tallapoosa river. This is a really bad idea. Move to the West Point region and attack from there over land.

What do you know about Lyons force? If this is your coup de main, then you should know everything that you can before you roll the dice. He doesn't seem to be entrenched above level 2, so that is good. However, the region seems to be forest, which is not to your advantage as the frontage is tight. Left click on Pope's stack and hit the 7 key, then cursor over the region. You'll get some info on the region and an estimate of how many of your regiments/batteries will be in a battle there. If Lee does MTSG, his troops might not have much to do. Also, you seem to have played an RGD there, but I can't tell which one.

What do you know about Pope's force? "An army of lions led by a rabbit, will always be overcome by an army of rabbits led by a lion" (Napoleon) Pope doesn't strike me as the lion type. What kind of troops make up his 1173 power stack? Do you have enough artillery and a loaded supply wagon (adds +10% to firepower calculation). Were you going to set Lee's force to offensive, otherwise he will take a -10% hit to his chance to MTSG for being in defensive posture.

Overall, never attack your enemy where he is strongest. Thomas and Lyons are dug in behind a river. They have a railroad connecting their regions so that they can quickly support each other and you are stuck in hills with the Coosa river between your forces. Your best shot at this is to move Lee to West Point and give him a huge force to clobber Lyons, who will of course have more time to entrench. Good luck!

[ArmChairGeneral]

In addition to Fox's excellent analysis, it appears that you aren't getting much done to undermine the Union position. With that large of a force sitting on a rail connected depot in Montgomery, HUGE amounts of supply are coming along the rail line from wherever his depot/harbor combo is on the Atlantic coast and getting stockpiled directly at the front. He is in a very strong tactical position already, if you let him build up a ton of supplies right at the front line you will find it almost impossible to dislodge him (and that Plantation at Montgomery isn't doing you any favors either, but you can't do anything about it). Hopefully those RGD's are Partisan Raid cards aimed at the depots like Columbus that are helping to bring all that supply forward. Get on top of those rails somewhere, tear up as many as you can, and try to get rid of the depot chain. Better yet, work a raider near his original landing point and blow the depot(s) on the coast to stop those Ocean supplies from entering the theater.

I would also question why it is so important to win in this theater. Yes, he is running roughshod over you here, but could you be making gains in other, less contested areas by switching to defense here and shifting the bulk of your forces to places where you can make headway? (Like, hopefully, around Washington, but maybe the Louisville-Cincy-Indy triangle.) None of the cities he has taken are decisive, although I am sure you are feeling the pinch from the loss of production at Atlanta and (I am assuming) Charleston, but similarly, winning them back won't be decisive for you either unless you can contrive to completely shatter several of his stacks along the way.

[Straight Arrow]

Thanks gents,

for your most excellent insights; I'll put them into my playbook and keep on trying.

I pretty sure I'm not alone in saying I've never really mastered the art of attack in this game.


edit:
You said,[color="#FFFF00"] "Okay, be calm. I can make you into as good a military leader as I am in probably way less than two generations."
[/color]

Gray Fox,

I'm not so sure you would win that bet; My grandpappys didn't do so well in Scotland, check out the Battle of Knock Mary. My kin have been in America ever since we backed the wrong horse in 1745. For every conflict that's come along since then, we were either too old or too young, or teamed up with the loser. Tories, rebs, that's us - the only professional military man in my family, had the bad luck to be stationed in the Philippines; when the Japanese decided to throw a party, he ended up cooling his heels in a POW camp.

So you can see, after 11 generations, it’s probably a hopeless task.

But keep trying!

Maybe the horse will learn to sing.

[Mickey3D]

Another point to add to what has already been written: Johnston and Lee are both army leader so no MTSG is possible between them. On the other side, I suppose Thomas and Lyon can MTSG to support each other.

[Captain_Orso]

The one misconception about MTSG that I see here is that the stack MTSG'ing is leaving his region; it is not.

MTSG is very abstract, and the game runs very linear otherwise. When a battle starts and a stack is eligible to MTSG, the time it would hypothetically take for the MTSG'ing stack to reach the battle, plus a random factor, is use to determine whether MTSG is successful. If it is successful, the MTSG'ing stack is considered to be in the battle starting at some battle round--I'm not sure how the battle round is determined, but probably depending on the time to march into the region--immediately, and as soon as the battle is over, the MTSG'ing stack is immediately considered to be in the region where it is actually standing[SUP]1)[/SUP].

Since the game only handles one battle at a time, if a battle starts in the MTSG'ing stack's region before or after the battle to which it is MTSG'ing, it's as if the MTSG'ing stack had not move at all, because it actually hasn't; with the exception of hit's and cohesion loss through MTSG'ing and fighting. There is no way to 'pin' a stack down by trying to start two battles simultaneously in neighboring regions.

--

BTW I like W.Barksdale's assessment. Thomas is almost an immovable object on the defensive. On the offensive, his Strategic rating is 3, which means you can expect him to be inactive about 50% of the time, although you won't know when. His Offensive rating is also only 3, so his power in attacking is limited. Drop A.S.Johnston's army-with-no-corps and give him a corp under Lee. Both Pope and Johnston's Defensive ratings will likely be higher than Thomas' Offensive rating. If Atlanta is Thomas' supply base, there is a very good chance that if you get your forces to, and take Atlanta Thomas will have no choice than to turn around at try to retake Atlanta with your side then having the Strategic and Defensive advantage. Let the 'Rock' throw himself at the 'Marble Man' and see which is stronger.


[SUP]1)[/SUP] The only exception I know to this is that occasionally, if the battle starts very late in the turn, and it might not hypothetically be able to 'return' to its actual region, for lack of time. The MTSG'ing stack in this case either remains in the battle region or is moved there at the end of the turn. I've never been able to determine which.

[ArmChairGeneral]

The other exception to MTSGers not returning to their region is if they lose the battle, in which case they go wherever the retreat algorithm sends them.

[Mickey3D]

If Atlanta is Thomas' supply base, there is a very good chance that if you get your forces to, and take Atlanta Thomas will have no choice than to turn around at try to retake Atlanta with your side then having the Strategic and Defensive advantage. Let the 'Rock' throw himself at the 'Marble Man' and see which is stronger.

There are three things to consider with Atlanta:
- Union controls the railroads: if you can't cut them he can easily outmanoeuvre you.
- If you don't keep a force South of Montgomery, Union can easily take Pensacola and get supply from the sea.
- I'm not 100% sure (not in front of the game) but I don't think Atlanta is the only supply base of Thomas: Montgomery provides supply and he can received it through Columbus and Augusta from Savannah (I suppose it is in Union hands).

The best would be if the fall of Atlanta forces the Union to move Thomas and Lyon in protection of a drive onto Savannah. For this you must have intelligence on what is the strength of forces in Atlanta, Newnan, Colombus and in Georgia.

Be careful also because there is a ranger unit on the railroad connecting Lee with the North of Alabama: your only way to quickly redeploy in the Chattanooga/Rome/Atlanta area.

[Captain_Orso]

The other exception to MTSGers not returning to their region is if they lose the battle, in which case they go wherever the retreat algorithm sends them.

Nope, since the last patch, MTSG'ed corps will retreat to their original regions, with the exception of if they have to cross a major river with any enemy gunboats; then they will search for another retreat target.

There are three things to consider with Atlanta:
- Union controls the railroads: if you can't cut them he can easily outmanoeuvre you.

Well I hope so! That's the whole point. I'd want Thomas to come charging in to attack, because it's his weakness.

- If you don't keep a force South of Montgomery, Union can easily take Pensacola and get supply from the sea.

It really depends on what is north of Atlanta. If Atlanta could serve as a viable supply base for the South while Thomas scurries off to Pensacola, I'd do the trade, especially if it meant being able to take back norther Georgia. Pensacola I've found is not a terribly good jump-off for re-invading Georgia, and on top of that, it means Thomas has to go in the offensive, which again puts him at a disadvantage.

- I'm not 100% sure (not in front of the game) but I don't think Atlanta is the only supply base of Thomas: Montgomery provides supply and he can received it through Columbus and Augusta from Savannah (I suppose it is in Union hands).

If Thomas doesn't move and Atlanta can be taken, then Columbus can too. Then Thomas is cut off from supplies and would have to attack over the Chattahoochee River to retake Atlanta or Columbus, or as you said, open Pensacola as a supply base. Again, anything that forces Thomas to attack is an an advantage.

The best would be if the fall of Atlanta forces the Union to move Thomas and Lyon in protection of a drive onto Savannah. For this you must have intelligence on what is the strength of forces in Atlanta, Newnan, Colombus and in Georgia.

Yes, that is the crux of the situation. If the Union has enough other forces near Atlanta that Thomas can basically stay put and let them keep or re-open the supply line to Montgomery, then there's no point to it, because Thomas won't attack.

Be careful also because there is a ranger unit on the railroad connecting Lee with the North of Alabama: your only way to quickly redeploy in the Chattanooga/Rome/Atlanta area.

There's a depot in Selma, which leads straight back to Meridian, where another depot should be. That should be too much of an issue, although pesky. Keeping the Meridian-Selma line open is however very important. A few gunboats on the Alabama River would sure be useful.

[Cardinal Ape]

General Leonidas POLK, I am very sorry. It was my fault that everyone called you Pope. In a message to Mr. Arrow I typoed your name and it went through a game of telephone. Sorry! Though your nickname is the 'Fighting Bishop' so perhaps you don't mind being called Pope...

I live in a small town called Rollingstone, I know the ancient secrets of how to move rocks and I can assure you that NONE SHALL PASS! Unless you got a Balrog down in Alabama...

Joking aside, I don't think Straight Arrow emphasized his dire need to achieve a breakthrough with his western forces back toward the east enough. It was that time of the game were it truly was now or never. An attack with a low chance of success was probably the right play. Desperate times require desperate measures and all that..

That RGD is a cavalry screen and it did get POLK across the river without initiating combat. Even though one of Lyons' division is a pure cavalry division (sent to inflate his numbers), I can not counter the screen with a deep recon because I control the region.

Thomas' superb defensive skill clearly overshadows his mastery of logistics..

I gotta say I'm really not fond of learning this, but you can tell from the screenshot that the depot in Montgomery is out of GS. It's depot icon is a white tent instead of a pile of cannon balls.

[Mickey3D]

There are three things to consider with Atlanta:
- Union controls the railroads: if you can't cut them he can easily outmanoeuvre you.

Well I hope so! That's the whole point. I'd want Thomas to come charging in to attack, because it's his weakness.

If Thomas, Lyon or any other Union force can move to Atlanta before you get there, you could no more be able to take the city.

Be careful also because there is a ranger unit on the railroad connecting Lee with the North of Alabama: your only way to quickly redeploy in the Chattanooga/Rome/Atlanta area.

There's a depot in Selma, which leads straight back to Meridian, where another depot should be. That should be too much of an issue, although pesky. Keeping the Meridian-Selma line open is however very important. A few gunboats on the Alabama River would sure be useful.

If you want to move quickly Lee in the Atlanta area (e.g. to attack the city) you will use the railroad going north through Columbiana and Talladega. The ranger can cut it and delay your operation to a point where it is may be no more possible to attack.

[Captain_Orso]

If Thomas, Lyon or any other Union force can move to Atlanta before you get there, you could no more be able to take the city.

Well, assuming the Union player is reading your mind, yeah, it might happen. Then again, Thomas is also not sitting on Montgomery anymore. Seems like I've moved the "Rock"

If you want to move quickly Lee in the Atlanta area (e.g. to attack the city) you will use the railroad going north through Columbiana and Talladega. The ranger can cut it and delay your operation to a point where it is may be no more possible to attack.

True, true. Do Rangers have a bonus to damage railroads?

[Mickey3D]

Well, assuming the Union player is reading your mind, yeah, it might happen. Then again, Thomas is also not sitting on Montgomery anymore. Seems like I've moved the "Rock"

Yes, might be a nice trick: move Lee next to Atlanta using railroad. Next turn Thomas is moved to the city (if the Union has nothing else to use) but at the same time you countermarch and attack Montgomery (don't know if Lee is quick enough to do it in one turn ?).

Moving Thomas the "Rock" seems to be a kind of Sisyphus work

Do Rangers have a bonus to damage railroads?

Not to my knowledge. But I think you can play a destroy railroad RGD with them.

[Captain_Orso]

Yes, might be a nice trick: move Lee next to Atlanta using railroad. Next turn Thomas is moved to the city (if the Union has nothing else to use) but at the same time you countermarch and attack Montgomery (don't know if Lee is quick enough to do it in one turn ?).

On further consideration, Columbus is the closest depot to Montgomery, and depending on Union power east of the Chattahoochee, threatening it should also be enough to get Thomas moving.

Of course, if the rail line west of Columbus is repaired quickly, Thomas the Rock could turn into Thomas the Train Engine

Moving Thomas the "Rock" seems to be a kind of Sisyphus work

But if the rail line didn't get repaired, Thomas the Train Engine could turn into Thomas the Train Wreck

Not to my knowledge. But I think you can play a destroy railroad RGD with them.

Oh, them pesky RGD's

[Mickey3D]

thomas the train engine

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[Captain_Orso]

There he is, all in blue!!

[pgr]

I like your idea of hitting Lyon, but you need to do it with everyone. So as some have already said, make sure your striking corps are under 1 army (i'd say Lee). The beauty of MSTG is that the reinforcing stacks don't suffer river crossing penalties (if memory serves), they don't benefit from entrenchments, and if they loose the battle, the can retreat away from their original location (although, given the depot in Montgomery, I bet they would retreat back there.)

So I would shift JoJo and Lee to Polk's position, and have Polk attack across the river, either directly or via West Point. (Grey Fox is correct that if you come direct across the river, Polk's stack will have a crossing penalty, but the MSTG stacks of JoJo and Lee will not be penalized). Do keep in mind that given the terrain, you are looking at a two turn maneuver. (JoJo has to cross two rivers and rough ground to get into place.)