Artillery replacments

[1stvermont]

Are heavy artillery replacements for forts and coastal guns?

what are regular artillery pieces categorized as?

[Cromagnonman]

There is some arcane method for determining from the element description what sort of replacement chit it uses

[1stvermont]

lol, jerk. I only have time to play not to read.

[Durk]

Are heavy artillery replacements for forts and coastal guns?

what are regular artillery pieces categorized as?

Yes, forts and coastal guns, so an investment which is not too useful as you do not control who gets the guns.

As to how to categorize the other artillery replacements, (remember I am poor at the details) the difference between Union having artillery on the main page and CSA having only the page two artillery on the replacement screen; this is my take:
light artillery is for brass and cavalry
field is for other mobile.
Practically, I try to keep two replacements in all artillery types except heavy for which I do not invest.

[ArmChairGeneral]

Hvy Artillery chits: Fort, Coastal, Columbiad, Rodman
Med Artillery chits: 20 lber, 10 lber, 12 lber
Light Artillery: 6 lber and Horse Artillery

It is arcane. For most combat elements you can leaf through the elements stat tabs and figure it out, but artillery all just say wheeled, so I had to look it up in the game files.

I have no idea what the two different sets of artillery replacements are for. I only just played my first Union game (in either version) and didn't know what to make of them. I only used the ones on the artillery tab, though, I thought it might be a bug.

[pgr]

Of course if you are confused, let the replacement screen help. If you hover your courser over each type type of replacement chit, you get a message stating the number of units that use the chit. So I buy chits for units I have (But yes, if you invest in heavy chits, most of that will be going to fixed coastal and fort artillery.)

[Captain_Orso]

Fort artillery is medium artillery. Also, Siege artillery is heavy.

The second page for artillery replacements are for artillery with the 'common' model trait. This covers nearly all artillery with a couple of minor... exceptions.

The Union's Flotilla Brigade has 2 pure Union 10lb-er artillery batteries, which will take their replacement from artillery on the first page.

Beyond that, all captured artillery take their replacements from the first page.

That's the difference.

[grimjaw]

There is some arcane method for determining from the element description what sort of replacement chit it uses

It does seem that way sometimes, but it has more to do with some misleading descriptions. This is more technical than some people will care about, and many already know it, but whatever.

Individual elements have families. Artillery in CW2 uses ones of three families, famLightArty, famMedArty and famHvyArty. There is an additional family (maybe more) that exists in CW2 that no element uses, famSHvyArty. It's not defined in the family aliases .ini, but I've added it in mods and it works with no issues. Classifying some artillery elements with famSHvyArty would have made sense and made replacement costs more manageable. I don't know why the developers decided not to.

The family names are aliases and they resolve to numbers that the game uses. They are built into the engine and you can't modify them other than to change their string descriptions. Their string descriptions are stored in LocalStrings__AGE.csv in the Settings folder, and it's the string descriptions that you see in-game on the relevant tab. famLightArty has the string description "Light Artillery" (depends on the language), and so on.

When an element needs a replacement, the replacement chit it draws from is decided by the element family. The cost of the replacement chit often doesn't exactly equal the cost of a completely new battery of artillery because the cost of the replacement chit is an average of the costs of all the types of elements for a faction that are in the force pool and/or on the board. Most of the artillery units are using the same model. If you have horse artillery from AR, LA and VA in the force pool, the game still calculates the average using their common model type, which is mdl_CMN_Art0. Another common model is mdl_CMN_Art1, CSA 6lbers. Both of those models use the same family, famLightArty. Once both types are in the force pool or on the board, the game takes their costs and divides by two (two model types with famLightArty). That will be their replacement chit cost. Note that it is specific to faction. The game doesn't average costs of artillery for all the factions and give a single replacement chit cost to all factions.

The cost of replacement chits can change over the course of the game if new elements are added to (or removed from) the force pool. In the April '61 campaign, initially there is only one type of CSA "light artillery" on the board or in the force pool, and that's the 6lber. CSA light artillery replacement chit costs in April have only one type to calculate the average (mdl_CMN_Art1) and replacement chit costs the same as it does to buy a new 6lber ($20/5 WS). When more expensive horse artillery, also "light artillery", is added to the CSA force pool, it drives the average cost up, and the replacement cost goes up ($21/6 WS, conscripts are the same). On the other hand, CSA medium and heavy artillery replacement chit costs go down after the first month of the full '61 campaign. You'll save a few CSA bucks and war supplies by buying light arty replacement chits in the first month, medium and heavy arty later.

How artillery was classified during the conflict does not equate to how it is defined in the game. In the game it has more to do with costs. For example, 20lb Parrott rifles were considered field artillery, but in the game they are classified as heavy artillery. If the game classified 20lb Parrotts as "field artillery" (famMedArty), it would drive up the costs of the field artillery replacement chits. *Correction* I am wrong for the same reason that Orso is wrong/right. The *model* for the CMN faction model 20lb arty is using famHvyArty, but the *unit* file that calls it in-game redefines it as famMedArty.

Fort artillery is medium artillery.

My unmodded game (v1.06) says "Heavy Artillery" on the element descriptions for CSA and USA fort batteries, but I went ahead and looked into it. There are two CMN faction fort artillery models that both use famHvyArty. There are CSA and USA model files that use the CMN faction fort artillery models as templates, but redefine the family as famMedArty. However, the units that are called in the game are using the CMN faction models, and further specify famHvyArty in their unit files. Fort batteries are famHvyArty, "Heavy Artillery".

[Captain_Orso]

You are correct, they are Heavy Artillery. My apologies.

IFAIK the whole point of having factional units use CMN models was to allow them to be integrated into divisions. For each type of artillery there is one CMN model used by the South and one used by the Union; the ones used by the Union have 'Exp' at the end of their name (eg mdl_CMN_Art2 vs mdl_CMN_Art2Exp) and are larger (have more hits) and are better trained (have higher cohesion).

I think that the 20lb-ers are a bit mixed up between Medium and Heavy Artillery was simply an oversight while transcribing the Unit and Model data from AACW to CW2.

[minipol]

But tbe 20lbers are definitely medium artillery?

[grimjaw]

minipol, yes. 20lbers used in the game are famMedArty, "field artillery" or medium artillery. ArmChairGeneral had it right the first time. Sorry if my post was misleading. The way they are written on the back end is a little unusual, that's all.

[minipol]

OK thanks for the info

[W.Barksdale]

minipol, yes. 20lbers used in the game are famMedArty, "field artillery" or medium artillery. ArmChairGeneral had it right the first time. Sorry if my post was misleading. The way they are written on the back end is a little unusual, that's all.

If you look in the units folder, this seems to be case. However, if you look in the models folder you will see that 20lbers are from the Family = $famHvyArty. From my current game playing as CSA, I can confirm that 20lbers need HVY replacement chits. Although I haven't tried it as USA, I imagine conclusions are similar: 20lbers need HVY replacement chits.

[grimjaw]

If you look in the units folder, this seems to be case. However, if you look in the models folder you will see that 20lbers are from the Family = $famHvyArty.

Which is why I said they had an unusual back end. However, I went back in to check. The game is ignoring the family switch in the unit file and sticking with the model designation.

It's reasons like this that I am overturning the anthill and reworking much of the code in my own game, trying to get all the Ts crossed and the Is dotted.

[ArmChairGeneral]

So 20s use Heavy replacements is the final answer?

[W.Barksdale]

So 20s use Heavy replacements is the final answer?

20lbers require heavy artillery replacements.

[minipol]

Which are the same replacements the guns in the forts need?
Is there a way to prevent the fort artillery to take the heavy replacements chits to use them for 20 lb artillery?

[Captain_Orso]

Units in Passive Posture will be prioritized on receiving replacements, also if they are in a fort and/or on a depot.

[W.Barksdale]

As Captain_Orso states, put them in passive posture inside a depot. This will give them priority when receiving replacements.

[ArmChairGeneral]

Yeah, but all those coastal and fort artillery that compete to draw your replacements are already in Forts and Depots, so good luck getting the (expensive as heck) replacements to the guns you really want. Passive posture helps but doesn't guarantee anything. The short answer is that there is no good way. I kind of don't bother with Heavy replacements because of this; I just accept that Heavy's degrade over time and that (as the CSA) they are just too expensive to replace. Fortunately field Artillery don't take a lot of hits, especially if you are winning. Coastal and fort guns OTOH can take a beating if they are facing Ironclads or similarly powerful ships, and are unfortunately just as difficult to get repaired as any other Heavy, since the replacement chits still get spent beefing up Fort Backline, GA.

[W.Barksdale]

I disagree. Putting your 20lbers, Columbiads, Rodmans etc in passive posture inside a structure with a depot will give them priority for replacements. My last game trying it out I didn't once have a problem with replacements going to fort batteries instead.

That being said the devs could have put a little more thought into the replacement system for heavy artillery, perhaps adding a new type for fort batteries.

[ArmChairGeneral]

Well, you certainly won't ever have a problem playing as the Union. As the CSA, I have never really been able to reliably steer heavies to where I want them. (And yes, I tried the Passive/Depot approach.) I have even tried putting all the other coasta/fort heavies in their regions instead of in their forts for a few turns. This actually worked pretty well, but was a lot of effort. Eventually I can get some replacements where I need them, but it is way too costly: my Columbiad does get its 4 hits replaced, but I often have to spend two or three chits before it happens.

If I have been able to spare the cash and keep a trickle of chits flowing to work on all those Coastal/Fort guns over time, the problem is mitigated. The most damaged elements have a higher likelihood of getting replacements no matter where they are, so getting the rest of the guns up to snuff a bit removes them from competition vs a heavily damaged element. This is something I rarely have the luxury of doing, though....

As much as I don't like the way it plays out in-game, I am not sure I am asking for a change. The CSA gets to build and maintain an inapproriate amount of artillery as-is; having extra hurdles is probably reasonable. I still can't decide whether this whole thing is by design or not.

[W.Barksdale]

I was playing as the CSA. I had three 20lbers at Richmond in passive posture sitting inside the city. One replacement chit topped them all up. YMMV but from what I can tell the feature is WAD.

[Gray Fox]

This is what the AGEODWiki states:

"Priority of Units recieving Replacements
Replacements are not added deterministically, i.e from lower region number to higher, etc. There is a weighted randomization taking place. But there are factors influencing the chances to get replacements, that is why some units will often get them before others.

First there is posture, all passive units will be checked before defensive, before offensive.
Then for a type of posture, you'll get much more chances to get a repl if you are in a region with high supply stock...
And then, your chances will be increased if you are an 'alert unit'. Your chance is proportional to Detection Value x Hide value of the unit.
It may seem to be a weird criteria, but generally this is gets good mileage. Quality units, like rangers etc. will get repl before line units, and line units will get them before militia."

So if your desired guns were on passive and the coastal guns on defensive, and had more supplies with a higher Detection x Hide value than those guns, then you should have maxed out the chances. A cavalry brigade usually has a detect of 5 and a hide of 2...

[Captain_Orso]

I believe that applies to each type of replacement and not generally for all elements needing replacements across the board. So Heavy artillery replacements only check as per GF's description for elements needing Heavy Artillery replacements. Then the next type of replacement is checked, etc. etc.

[ArmChairGeneral]

Every time an element draws a replacement hit (heart) there is a roll to determine whether that hit is the straw that breaks the camel's back and exhausts the chit. Therefore ANY hit that gets assigned to an element that you do not want to purchase hits for is strictly worse for you than if it had been assigned to one you wanted, since there is a possibility that that might be the hit that exhausts the chit that you bought, while the element you prefer gets nothing.

Since from the player's perspective hits going to a Fort in Florida rather than to a 20lber in Manassas are disadvantageous, I am calling elements we don't want to get a replacement hit losers, and the ones we do want to get assigned hits winners.

The probability of getting picked to receive a replacement is random weighted. Random weighting guarantees a non-zero chance for a loser to be picked for the next replacement hit. We can maximize our weighting through posture and location, but losers can be chosen at least sometimes.

For most element types, this is irrelevant. There aren't any losers when assigning infantry replacements: it doesn't matter where they are, if they have taken hits they need to be brought back up to full fighting condition or they will be a liability in battle. In the case of CSA Heavy Artillery, however, not only are there losers, the losers greatly outnumber the winners. Yes you can get an advantageous weighting through posture, etc., but you are not getting the same value from resources spent on Heavy Artillery chits when compared to the same chit purchased by the Union, since the Union does not have any losers to drag down the expected value in winners per chit.

Now, it is not clear that this difference is a big deal. As far as I know the actual weightings are not in any of the standard sources nor in the game files. It could be that weightings are very strong for passive, depots, etc., and even though there are a lot of losers in the mix the hits still mostly to go to the winners if you do the right things. From my experience it seems to be more in the middle: I can get my Columbiads repaired when I commit to it, but it seems like I am using more chits overall than I would expect compared to other replacement types or when I am buying Union Heavy chits.

As a CSA player who subscribes to a general "put divisions in the field" build strategy, lately I find Heavy Artillery chits almost prohibitively expensive compared to what you could field with the same resources, and for the most part field heavies don't accumulate that many hits anyway. For me the stated cost is already almost too high for the benefit. Add in the fact that I have a lot of losers competing for those hits so I won't even get full value, and for me the strategy is clear: I very rarely buy CSA Heavy Artillery chits.

No matter your playstyle, though, the fact remains that ultimately the CSA pays more on average to deliver a replacement hit to a Heavy Artillery winner than the Union does (since the Union doesn't have any losers). It may work out to be a very small difference, but it is strictly worse than what the Union gets for the same number of Heavy Artillery chits. Intended or not, large or not, there is a penalty to the CSA when using Heavy Artillery chits.

[juss]

On another note, has anyone else noticed that USA Athena doesn't seem to buy CMN artillery replacements. In two of my games as the CSA, I have loaded up the game as USA, and noticed that by 1863 their CMN Light-Art, Medium and Heavy are about 150 hits in the red with 0 chits bought. Is that WAD?

[Gray Fox]

FYI ACG, I have read the conventional wisdom that replacement chits get a random ability to be used up. However, this is the AGEODWiki link that I should have posted above:

http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/Replacements

Which states that:

"Replacement chits that are used to replace lost strength points are removed from the Replacement Pool when the last of their strength points is consumed. Players do not have a means of knowing how many strength points are remaining in individual replacement chits. This is handled internally by the game engine. Replacement chits used to provide entire battalion-sized elements are removed from the Replacement Pool immediately."

The part I put in italics would indicate that it is not a crap shoot for when the chit is exhausted. After X number of hits are removed, then the chit is gone.

[W.Barksdale]

The part I put in italics would indicate that it is not a crap shoot for when the chit is exhausted. After X number of hits are removed, then the chit is gone.

This is not my understanding but is possible.

[W.Barksdale]

On another note, has anyone else noticed that USA Athena doesn't seem to buy CMN artillery replacements. In two of my games as the CSA, I have loaded up the game as USA, and noticed that by 1863 their CMN Light-Art, Medium and Heavy are about 150 hits in the red with 0 chits bought. Is that WAD?

When playing with Athena try playing with the automatic replacements option.