Why is play as CSA so nerve wracking?

[LCcmdr]

I physically get tense when playing as the South. Probably has to do with the continual "spanking" that Athena gives me.

[darioVMannstein]

I physically get tense when playing as the South. Probably has to do with the continual "spanking" that Athena gives me.

I think alot of us guys who are into these kind of war grand strategy games loves to get challenged ( or maybe some are just pervert and likes the South lol) Anyway, me personally I always start with the maximum or second maximum of difficulty level and I read alot about game mechanic and asks alot of question so I can learn.
I would like to start my first campaign with the South as well but it might be a bit too hard for a beginner.

[LCcmdr]

I think alot of us guys who are into these kind of war grand strategy games loves to get challenged ( or maybe some are just pervert and likes the South lol) Anyway, me personally I always start with the maximum or second maximum of difficulty level and I read alot about game mechanic and asks alot of question so I can learn.
I would like to start my first campaign with the South as well but it might be a bit too hard for a beginner.

Well, older gamer here, so I like micromanagement and hard challenges, especially in this genre of games (wish I could do FPS but that's not my cup of tea). Like you, I read and ask questions--or try to provoke conversation since too often I'm not sure what to ask. Lately, I've been reading AARs to get an idea about how to start as CSA. My frustration is largely the gasping shortness of resources that just strangles the CSA economy, which cannot build industry AND troops. Starving on the troop builds is disasterous in the short run, while failing to invest in future supply appears to be even worse strategy.

This game is tough for me. Even on the lowest settings for CSA, I get run over by the North. Hopefully, I do it with Southern grace and style--

[darioVMannstein]

All about learning mate, hope you gonna crush soon with the CSA. I ve heard its possible and for some veterans not much tougher as with US.

Well, I do love this game alot and especially US History, I find it cool to learn more about the history in these kind of games cause I am german and in school we got only basic lessons about american civil war. Most of the time it was more history lessons about WW2

[ifailmore]

are you playing on normal settings or on hard settings. ON normal setting its quite easy to play as csa against AI! make sure you invest n factories early on and a boat or two then keep replenishing units you should be fine

[LCcmdr]

well, I went down to the lowest setting for AI difficulty...and I may actually survive this one.

BTW, do you invest in powder mills? I'm still new to this game and wondering if the Powder MIlls are as helpful as the Arsenals?

[ArmChairGeneral]

Neither Powder Mills nor Arsenals are necessary until much later in the game when you may begin to run into a bottleneck of ammo production as the CSA. Instead build one of the Ironworks in late summer 61 (once you have built some troops and artillery to get you on an even footing in Virginia) and then don't spend anything else on industry until you run into ammo problems. Ironworks are expensive and you will have to save a turn or two to get the resources together, but they result in a whopping 24 WS per turn, nearly doubling your initial production. Get your scripted brigs into the blockade boxes and you have essentially fixed the early Southern WS bottleneck before fall 61.

[LCcmdr]

Neither Powder Mills nor Arsenals are necessary until much later in the game ,





Get your scripted brigs into the blockade boxes and you have essentially fixed the early Southern WS bottleneck before fall 61.

Perhaps, then, I've overbought by getting the Arsenals ($2/1WS/2GS/10Am) since my perception was, that the significant number of them would significantly boost income over the ensuing turns--at $2 each, 10 or more of these locations ought to help the struggling economy of the CSA with its sole metropolis of New Orleans (City>10).


Okay, do the Brigs go into the Blockade boxes or into the shipping lanes? And, is there any value in producing more Brigs and/or transports for either box?

thanks to all you folks for helping me out.

[Pocus]

This kind of conversation is always nice to read for us!

[Gray Fox]

Both sides can get lots of cash by raising taxes, selling bonds or printing money. This might affect VP's or NM or add some inflation, but there's no Miss Congenialty award in warfighting.

Each CSA brig unit in a blockade sea box earns two dollars or two WS or one of each per turn plus some change. A new brig unit costs cash and WS to build. It has to survive long enough to bring in more cash and WS than it costs or it's a hole in your economic bucket. If it takes hits and you bring it into port for repair, the price of the replacement chits also adds to the cost of that unit. So...

I don't build any blockade runners and I don't advise building them. Use the ones you start with and keep them out until they are sunk. You do start with some replacement chits for them, but you also get two brig units with only one ship. Put these in port on Green/Green and the second ship will be added after some turns from the chits. Every free brig should earn resources for your army.

If you put brigs in both boxes, then the Union gets two chances to sink them every turn. So put all of them in one box on Green/Green set to Evade Combat. That should keep their cohesion up until they are sunk, so don't spend resources on a resupply Transport. I put them all in one stack too, since this doesn't affect their evasion stat. Surprisingly, brigs led by one of the sea commanders you get have a lower evasion number than a stack with no commander. So I don't use a sea commander with the blockade runners. Put the admiral types with your ironclads.

CSA ships in the Shipping Lanes Box are raiders that take resources away from the Union, but don't earn you anything. You eventually get some frigate types that don't work as blockade runners and I only use these ships as raiders.

That's my take on it. Good luck!

[LCcmdr]

Both sides can get lots of cash by raising taxes, selling bonds or printing money. This might affect VP's or NM or add some inflation, but there's no Miss Congenialty award in warfighting.

Each CSA brig unit in a blockade sea box earns two dollars or two WS or one of each per turn plus some change. A new brig unit costs cash and WS to build. It has to survive long enough to bring in more cash and WS than it costs or it's a hole in your economic bucket. If it takes hits and you bring it into port for repair, the price of the replacement chits also adds to the cost of that unit. So...

I don't build any blockade runners and I don't advise building them. Use the ones you start with and keep them out until they are sunk. You do start with some replacement chits for them, but you also get two brig units with only one ship. Put these in port on Green/Green and the second ship will be added after some turns from the chits. Every free brig should earn resources for your army.

If you put brigs in both boxes, then the Union gets two chances to sink them every turn. So put all of them in one box on Green/Green set to Evade Combat. That should keep their cohesion up until they are sunk, so don't spend resources on a resupply Transport. I put them all in one stack too, since this doesn't affect their evasion stat. Surprisingly, brigs led by one of the sea commanders you get have a lower evasion number than a stack with no commander. So I don't use a sea commander with the blockade runners. Put the admiral types with your ironclads.

CSA ships in the Shipping Lanes Box are raiders that take resources away from the Union, but don't earn you anything. You eventually get some frigate types that don't work as blockade runners and I only use these ships as raiders.

That's my take on it. Good luck!

Okay, as the fog clears, my Brigs in a shipping box are actually raiders--denying the enemy their income but doing nothing for mine. Brigs in the Blockade box are functioning as Runners that earn me income but do nothing about the enemy blockade.

Have I heard you correctly?

Many thanks for putting up with a newbie.....

[Cardinal Ape]

Yes, brigs earn money in the blockade boxes.

I would second Gray Fox's advise; don't build any brigs. I once did the math on them and they are not worth the cost. Assuming no interference from the Union, they take years to break even.

I try to build the two Iron Works options as soon as possible. Maybe some ammo production around '63. Other than that you will find that the limiting factor on CSA resources is manpower.

[LCcmdr]

Yes, brigs earn money in the blockade boxes.

I would second Gray Fox's advise; don't build any brigs. I once did the math on them and they are not worth the cost. Assuming no interference from the Union, they take years to break even.

I try to build the two Iron Works options as soon as possible. Maybe some ammo production around '63. Other than that you will find that the limiting factor on CSA resources is manpower.

many thanks! Learning what to choose and what to leave on the table is great to get from you veterans!

[ArmChairGeneral]

To extend Gray Fox's analysis of brigs, you must consider how long it takes to repay the cost of industrial investment also. If you spend $175 to build some Arsenals, you have to think about how many turns it will take that number of Arsenals @ $2 per turn to repay your initial investment. This is your break-even point. Until then you are behind in resources compared to building something else, and even once you are in net positive territory (many turns in the future) it will then take even more time to convert the extra production into actual warfighting ability and deploy it into the field. In the meantime you have a shortage of combat capability in the field, because you don't have the $175 worth of combat troops (or HQs or wagons or whatever) to fight battles with.

For the most part industrialization is for fixing the bottlenecks that occur due to the different rates you produce resources at. If you have anemic WS production more $$ is useless, and it is worth investing that cash to get more of the resources you don't have. Typically as the CSA I am desperate for WS for the first several months until I can put up an Ironworks, then the limiting factor becomes conscript points. Once NM improves I can get plenty of CS through paying nothing for volunteers, and money finally becomes a limiting factor, but by this point I have exhausted my build pools or am spending everything on replacements rather than new units anyway. Later (around late 63 or in 64 if the game has lasted that long) overall ammo production is sometimes not able to keep up with the size of my armies and the pace of the fighting, so I have to bite the bullet and pay whatever it costs to increase ammo production via Armories and Powder Mills; in this case their production of $$ and WS is not a factor in the decision, I need the ammo.

[ArmChairGeneral]

One thing I do invest a lot in as the CSA is the Rail pool. It is important for supply distribution as well as mobility, and is worth every penny.

[LCcmdr]

One thing I do invest a lot in as the CSA is the Rail pool. It is important for supply distribution as well as mobility, and is worth every penny.

Yep, I'm running cash and conscript poor, at the moment. I have the Union just under 70, am in Alexandria threatening DC, and the AI just keeps adding 1k stacks out West to stall my northward treck up the MS River valley. With huge army battles around DC, my repletion rate lags way behind the Union, thereby denying me the opportunity to sustain a rapid attack cycle.


ARGHHHH

but I'm having fun. This game has definitely been worth the money.

[ArmChairGeneral]

Long post:

Sounds like you are in a fair position. Sit on Alexandria for a bit, it is a strong spot, and its threat to DC will cause the AI to put a lot of forces in DC to keep you out, freeing your hand elsewhere. Be sure to rebuild the depot or redoubt if they were burned by the AI or destroyed during the fighting. What turn is it, and how is your own NM?

During periods of heavy fighting it is normal to spend everything you have on replacements for several turns in a row. The CSA draws replacements twice as fast the Union, so your stacks actually recover more quickly from casualties than theirs do assuming you have enough replacements to draw on.

However it will not seem like you recover twice as fast. This is because the PWR number displayed on the map icons is an estimate of combat effectiveness based on hits, troop quality, and most importantly cohesion. Your forces will fight very poorly when low on cohesion (and by low I mean anything less than 2/3 of max) so PWR ratings drop a lot after battles because everyone is low on cohesion and dispersed across a devastated battlefield and needs time to regroup. The South recovers hits (paid for in $$, CS and WS by buying replacements) more quickly but does not necessarily recover cohesion (which recovers for free) any faster, so the remaining Union forces can often get back into fighting order just as fast as yours do. Their PWR ratings recover quickly, but it will normally take them a turn or more longer than you to recover from an equal number of hits. (BTW, both sides recover hits at their maximum rate when in a region with a friendly depot, and do not have to be in the structure.)

You should actively seek opportunities to attack enemy formations that are low on cohesion (i.e. who have recently fought battles) with a fresh stack at full cohesion, while the stack that originally fought it remains in passive posture so that it does not fight and recovers cohesion unmolested. If you don't have a decisive advantage with the second stack, attack with conservative orders. This will avoid taking too much damage yourself (expect some casualties though, unless you are bringing the hammer with the second stack) while inflicting still more cohesion loss on the enemy stack and preventing its fast recovery. Leaders with the Skirmisher trait are good in this role because they are better able to break contact when outnumbered and can get in and get out. At very low cohesion the enemy stack may not be able to leave the region because of movement penalties, allowing you to hit again the next turn with your now recovered first stack.

Athena is prone to overly optimistic attacks making her vulnerable to this kind of tactic. She will inevitably stick her neck out with a poorly supported thrust with stacks of one or two divisions to places where the supply situation makes them doomed to failure. If you are doing a good job scouting you will see this in plenty of time to position forces to make sure it loses the initial battle at its point of attack. Work to get small cav stack across its supply lines so that it is cut off from supply on the turn or the turn after that it makes its initial attack. It is now low on cohesion so moving slowly and beginning to run out of supplies and ammo. You can make terrain work here, forcing it (or knowing when the rules force it) to retreat to difficult terrain if they can even get away at all. Block their best route to safety and potential resupply with some of your now recovered initial combat stack or forces brought in from elsewhere and they can lose dozens of hits to starvation before they can regain enough cohesion to be able to make their way to safety and supply. Even small attacks that do not inflict a lot of hits on them slow them down by keeping their cohesion low and unable to move to safety and may exhaust their ammo. Remember when attacking a retreater that they will be in passive posture (Green) so you will need to be in Attack (Orange) to bring them to battle. They get an extra chance to avoid you by being in Green posture, so bring plenty of cavalry with high patrol values to increase your chances of pinning them down, they can be really squirmy.

Sorry, that went off on a bit of a tangent there, but it all loops back to what you were talking about with the "repletion rate" and how it works and how you can take advantage of it.

[LCcmdr]

Ah, great lessons here! Every time I get the benefit of this kind of instruction, I just want to start over to get it right. Again, many thanks.


Now, to poke for more info....

most all attempts to send cavalry gets get foiled by instant attacks, leading to the quick destruction of the unit. Should I be sending stacks with greater numbers? Do I send stacks with supply or without? Or, a few units?

My assumption was, that the Cav units within the stacks did scouting of the adjacent hexes: is that not right?

I would love some pointers on better deployment of Cav.

thanks

[LCcmdr]

I finally won!!!!! However, I didn't deserve it holistically: Union army was making a tremendous counter to all of my early gains. I had come to within one battle of taking St. Louis, when Sheridan shows up with a 1600 strong stack to take on the remnants of my 600 strong stack. In Ohio, I held Cinci and had largely disrupted everything from there to Wheeling, PA. But the Eastern seaboard was crawling with large Union stacks (1800-3650); yet, all were out of reach to stop my "Hail Mary" to take DC. Using your earlier tactics, I attacked first with one stack, then followed the next round with the second one--Lee and Beauregarde (2400 & 2000) did the trick!!!!

[Gray Fox]

If you cursor over a region, you'll get a menu with some info and one piece of that is a Detection number. If the populace is loyal to your side, then they report enemy intel to your side. So the local folks can tell you something about a Union force deep in GA even without any of your units being nearby. Everything else you want to know, you have to work for it.

Infantry move slower than cavalry and artillery even slower. Cav can get in behind the enemy lines quickly and then hopefully get out before the enemy can react. A single cavalry element can best do this recon mission if set to Green/Green, Evade Combat. I have a pic of the 3rd VA boys set up for this.

[ATTACH]36830[/ATTACH]

I outlined in red the Green/Green, Evade Combat posture and the cursor is over the bullseye icon I also outlined to get the unit info menu that is displayed. Note the Evasion value of 12. This will allow the unit to slip past even the strong ZOC of a fort type structure and should keep them out of trouble...for a while. Once behind the lines, if set to Blue/Green, the single unit can interdict supply for the enemy, but they can also get whacked more easily.

Up to a few elements can be put together in a brigade sized formation and still get by. Here, Magruder is leading the Laurel Brigade and the evasion number is even higher.

[ATTACH]36831[/ATTACH]

Unfortunately, cavalry benefiting from a General can also suffer when he is inactive. Be sure to use high Strat Generals to lead your cavalry. The Union only has single cav elements, but it is possible to form a Division commanded by a General and then assign only a few cavalry elements to it.

Larger cavalry Divisions and Corps have smaller evasion numbers and would not be able to sneak around as well. These are good for hunter-killer groups to chase down the enemy's smaller recon cav units. During the war the fight for intel caused the cavalry formations to grow in size from small sneaker units to large actual combat units of many thousands. If you absolutely need to know something ASAP, don't be afraid to sacrifice some horsemen.

Good job taking D.C. !

[LCcmdr]

Great info! I had seen the "evade" button but did not understand its strategic use, as explained by you!

Many thanks,

Oh, and I upped the AI aggression and running everywhere now! ROFLOL

[darioVMannstein]

Ah, great lessons here! Every time I get the benefit of this kind of instruction, I just want to start over to get it right. Again, many thanks.


thanks

Haha This!!!

[LCcmdr]

@dario' > I finally won one! Even as CSA. This game rocks.

So, I've upped the AI smarts and made supply tougher. Let's see if can rise to the challenge as a "blue belly" now. To everyone else in the world, aren't we all yanks...?

[LCcmdr]

@Gray Fox

Your tip here is drastically improving my intel and survival rate of scouting Cav.

Great stuff!!!!

[Gray Fox]

You're most welcome!

When you form Divisions of infantry and you want some cav in them for intrinsic recon ability, try to use an infantry brigade that already has a cav element in it. That way, all of the single cav elements will be available for intel missions. It's a long war and you won't want to run out.

[darioVMannstein]

@dario' > I finally won one! Even as CSA. This game rocks.

So, I've upped the AI smarts and made supply tougher. Let's see if can rise to the challenge as a "blue belly" now. To everyone else in the world, aren't we all yanks...?

Great to hear that mate
I will start with the CSA as well. Learnt alot the last days so I feel good to rock now a bit haha

Edit: How did you handle the army situation, seems like I cant build enough, I did start to increase WS and Money by some events we will see now...
Strategywise I think I need offense eastern front in 61 before Union is going to mobilizy
Defense on TN and MS allthough I may try to destroy some highways west of the MS and Nashville to just let the Union have a very hard time getting into my Mississippi

[LCcmdr]

Great to hear that mate
I will start with the CSA as well. Learnt alot the last days so I feel good to rock now a bit haha

Edit: How did you handle the army situation, seems like I cant build enough, I did start to increase WS and Money by some events we will see now...
Strategywise I think I need offense eastern front in 61 before Union is going to mobilizy
Defense on TN and MS allthough I may try to destroy some highways west of the MS and Nashville to just let the Union have a very hard time getting into my Mississippi

Well.... I've started two games, alternating--one as Yanks; the other, Rebs. In these latest attempts, I'm working with "no automatic replacement," and it's completely changed my game strategy. Now, I'm getting all my troops replenished, especially those of Th. Jackson (Stonewall), but my building of new troops has plummeted! Drastically!!!! That's why I'm alternating: the North definitely allows more resources both to build and replenish. Oh, and I had an earlier game as Yanks, in which I do believe Athena suckered me--but I jumped the AI up to see just how ready I was. I wasn't! Yikes.

Have fun


OH, as CSA, I build far more pairs of militia to make the cheap man's army. Fewer conscripts (7), less $ and WS, too. Then, I wait for a trainer (typically, Western CSA first) and start converting them upward. ATM, I cannot perceive the South's ability to maintain all the various infantry genre builds (Elite, Line, Conscript, & Militia) along with 3 arty genres and then both replenish via the Chits (F3, replenishment NATO) and build new units. So, I've been experimenting with just Line and below. I'll post when I understand better.

However, I would love for some of the veteran players to chime in here and do a little teaching......

Thanks

[RickInVA]

OH, as CSA, I build far more pairs of militia to make the cheap man's army. Fewer conscripts (7), less $ and WS, too. Then, I wait for a trainer (typically, Western CSA first) and start converting them upward. ATM, I cannot perceive the South's ability to maintain all the various infantry genre builds (Elite, Line, Conscript, & Militia) along with 3 arty genres and then both replenish via the Chits (F3, replenishment NATO) and build new units. So, I've been experimenting with just Line and below. I'll post when I understand better.

I'm not sure how veteran I am, but here are some thoughts.

For replacements one can go a long way. IIRC as each replacement is being used to replenish a force point it can, but is not sure to, use up the replacement point. So I don't try to keep a lot of replacement points built. I keep 1 or 2 Elite inf, usually 1 sharpshooter, 5 line and 5 cav (or less), a few mil type, etc. If I have a lot of losses some turn I will buy that pool up to say 10 line, etc. For artillery, I have to say I buy far less. It is rather expensive, and with inflation just gets worse, so 1 point here and there is about it. I find that I capture so much Union artillery that I really don't have to worry about it.

I hope that helps.

[LCcmdr]

Yep, beats the 10 or 15 supplied chits that I'm maintaining. But, I done so because of past experience of incurring losses faster than I buy and replenish. If you're saying that 5 will get it done, then I'm definitely going to scale back and try it your way.

Thanks

[BattleVonWar]

Very informative as I scrolled through I didn't know that using just 1 box was an advantage with your initial Brigs. I tried building a fleet of them and never really broke down any advantage. WS was something I also dealt with and built the right factories to make up for it. Another thing is if you defeat an enemy army to a point you capture war supply. So I would rather go kill 3-4 enemy armies and delay expansion of my industry early when I need those brigades out quick to throw that massive punch at the Union. Unless your aim is a defensive war(which is usually a losing war) The CSA really has a handcuff on for it's brigades. It starts off better than the Union but as the war progresses the Union has very strong Divisions. Plus very strong Artillery. When her leader's mature also she is unstoppable. If you cannot hurt her bad early you lose more often than not.

A great tactic with brigs..use them to scout out what the enemy is doing if he puts the hatch down tight on the Intel Tank. You can look for where he is loading up for a huge Amphibious Invasion and even possibly see if they're headed for the Gulf or for the East Coast!

P.S. I lost my last game cause my Union opponent put a great effort in ridding my Intelligence and moved all of his Army right beneath my nose... Nothing worse than being blind on the battlefield ..(1 brig off NYC even if it died would have saved the entire Game and my Capitol) and I was leading till then