I just got the game last week.
I played the original and it's seeming predecessor from long before from i-magic or whatever it was.
I already played a campaign as the U.S., now I'm playing as the C.S.A.
I'm a little confused on specific effects of forts. There wasn't much in the manual on them, almost nothing.
I've decided to make use of forts. I captured the fort in Alexandria, VA (there seems to be a bug with enemy garrison units spawning there).
I also made a Fort at Harper's Ferry, and at both of the two ~Level 2 cities near it in Virginia.
I couldn't make up my mind which to use so I made forts at all three. I put a lot of militia, an infantry brigade or two and a battery of rifled arty in each. Along with some leaders. I want to deny my enemy using them as bases of supply while our armies go at it. Also preventing their retreating to them and forcing me to tie up troops in a siege. Also I'm led to believe that forts will impede the enemy's movement? If I remember right, this is especially true on rivers or even block's movement and enemy supplies?
I get that forts aren't a permanent solution to stop an enemy dead in their tracks and that I need to have mobile reserves. But for the purpose of holding a fort, what works best garrisoned inside? Should all the units be in one stack? Or separate stacks? Should I keep intact divisions and otherwise try to minimize the command penalty inside?
Also, if I have an infantry force outside, will it be able to be supported by the fort or at least easily withdraw inside it? Or are the just dead meat if a large enemy force enters the province and engages?
Thanks
Also, while I'm happy with the game, I'm not entirely sure what the big difference between I and II is at this point. I have confidence that the series will be supported, I always use ACW I's patch which added the ability to replay an action phase as an example of a company supporting its game well and not just releasing must have add-ons. I hope that feature comes back. It's annoying going from having it in ACW I to not in ACW II.
I hate having to piece together what just happened in the action phase.
And what's with the add-on? It's just extra scenarios? I almost bought it. I was real drunk when I bought the game, I rarely spend money on games and it was a big deal just to buy the vanilla version.
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Poorlaggedman
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Captain_Orso
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Hi Poorlaggedman and welcome back to the fold.
I'll try to keep my answers short, which is a great challenge for me
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From the rules of the game there's not that much that's different from AACW. It's mostly just expanded the map and added a few new features.
The biggest is the Regional Decision cards (RGD's). Open their page with <F12> or by clicking on the round icon with playing card in the upper-left. They add some mostly minor flavor to the game, although, if played right you can do some important things with them. Tip: if have error-logging turned on and you hover the pointer over their icon which shows how many of each one you have, they give you a detailed explanation of their use and affects.
Management Summery
The main use of forts is as a supply base and to prevent enemy stacks from moving past them without the enemy having a higher patrol value inside the fort's region and sufficient Military Control (MC) in the next region passed the fort by increasing the fort owner's Zone of Control (ZOC) value in the region. ZOC is only inside a region and does not directly affect neighboring regions.
If you select one of your stacks a small box will open in the lower-right corner. This is the Inspection Panel. If there are no enemy stacks in the region, you will find a large-ish white dot in a white circle at the bottom of the Inspection Panel. If you hover the mouse pointer over this dot it will give you information about your ZOC in the region. If an enemy stack is in the region this white dot might turn red and be surrounded by what looks like parenthesizes. This indicates that enemy ZOC is preventing you from moving into certain enemy held regions, which will also be overlaid in red.
If you have a stack inside the location (city, fort, settlement, etc) of a region, the tool-tip of this dot will also give you information about how many elements you can have inside the location before suffering under the over-crowding rule, which will increase the chances of ALL elements inside the location of taking hits and decrease the chances of your elements scoring hits if the attacker assaults the location.
So forts are to prevent the enemy from passing through a region, but they don't fight well on their own. You cannot just stuff them full of troops and expect them to do anything really. They don't fight unit outside the fort unless assaulted--or if you have another stack outside, they can sortie out to assist the stack outside in fighting, if you give them the Sortie Out Special Order (SO)--or you can directly put a force outside to fight the enemy.
If an unopposed enemy stack is in the region where you have a stack inside a location, that location--including forts, of course--will become besieged. Siege combat is very generic and mainly depends on artillery and supplies. The offensive artillery value of the besieger is compared with the defensive artillery value of the besieged. For each side a die roll is made and modified by the multiple difference in artillery values (1-1, 2-1, 3-1, etc). Defenders dr is subtracted from the attackers dr. If the modified difference is high enough the besieged side will surrender, losing all his besieged troops. If a surrender is not reached the besieged location my be breached, which will give the besieger a die roll modifier in the next siege roll. If the dr is far enough to the defender's advantage, a breach may be repaired.
So the most important factors for defending in a siege are:
Remember, a fort is a speed-bump for an attacking army. If your force is smaller and will not be quickly supported, it is better to abandon the fort and escape; far better than surrendering to a siege.
I'll try to keep my answers short, which is a great challenge for me
.
From the rules of the game there's not that much that's different from AACW. It's mostly just expanded the map and added a few new features.
The biggest is the Regional Decision cards (RGD's). Open their page with <F12> or by clicking on the round icon with playing card in the upper-left. They add some mostly minor flavor to the game, although, if played right you can do some important things with them. Tip: if have error-logging turned on and you hover the pointer over their icon which shows how many of each one you have, they give you a detailed explanation of their use and affects.
Management Summery
- Forts work like depots in attracting and storing supplies.
- If artillery is inside a fort, they will prevent enemy supplies from moving up or down a neighboring river passed the fort.
- If artillery is inside a fort, they will bombard passing enemy units moving up or down the river passed the fort.
- A fort in a region will increase the ZOC of the owner's side preventing enemy stacks from moving beyond that region.
- Pre-war forts work like entrenchment level 4 for defending units inside the fort, forts you build during the game and redoubts giving by the scenario or which you build afford an even higher entrenchment bonus.
The main use of forts is as a supply base and to prevent enemy stacks from moving past them without the enemy having a higher patrol value inside the fort's region and sufficient Military Control (MC) in the next region passed the fort by increasing the fort owner's Zone of Control (ZOC) value in the region. ZOC is only inside a region and does not directly affect neighboring regions.
If you select one of your stacks a small box will open in the lower-right corner. This is the Inspection Panel. If there are no enemy stacks in the region, you will find a large-ish white dot in a white circle at the bottom of the Inspection Panel. If you hover the mouse pointer over this dot it will give you information about your ZOC in the region. If an enemy stack is in the region this white dot might turn red and be surrounded by what looks like parenthesizes. This indicates that enemy ZOC is preventing you from moving into certain enemy held regions, which will also be overlaid in red.
If you have a stack inside the location (city, fort, settlement, etc) of a region, the tool-tip of this dot will also give you information about how many elements you can have inside the location before suffering under the over-crowding rule, which will increase the chances of ALL elements inside the location of taking hits and decrease the chances of your elements scoring hits if the attacker assaults the location.
So forts are to prevent the enemy from passing through a region, but they don't fight well on their own. You cannot just stuff them full of troops and expect them to do anything really. They don't fight unit outside the fort unless assaulted--or if you have another stack outside, they can sortie out to assist the stack outside in fighting, if you give them the Sortie Out Special Order (SO)--or you can directly put a force outside to fight the enemy.
If an unopposed enemy stack is in the region where you have a stack inside a location, that location--including forts, of course--will become besieged. Siege combat is very generic and mainly depends on artillery and supplies. The offensive artillery value of the besieger is compared with the defensive artillery value of the besieged. For each side a die roll is made and modified by the multiple difference in artillery values (1-1, 2-1, 3-1, etc). Defenders dr is subtracted from the attackers dr. If the modified difference is high enough the besieged side will surrender, losing all his besieged troops. If a surrender is not reached the besieged location my be breached, which will give the besieger a die roll modifier in the next siege roll. If the dr is far enough to the defender's advantage, a breach may be repaired.
So the most important factors for defending in a siege are:
- Sufficient good defensive artillery (siege artillery--very expensive, but great; 20lb-ers--very good, but also expensive; 12lb-ers--good bang-for-buck value in defense, 6lb-ers--cheap, but not so good). Rifled artillery (10lb-ers) are good offensively, but not so good defensively.
- Supply; a fort with a harbor on a river which can bring in supplies helps a lot. Having a supply unit inside the fort is important, even if it only has 2 elements.
Remember, a fort is a speed-bump for an attacking army. If your force is smaller and will not be quickly supported, it is better to abandon the fort and escape; far better than surrendering to a siege.
The most important aspect of forts is the number of troops you can effectively defend it with and how long it can hold out. I'd suggest a 2 element supply unit (in addition to a depot) with whatever forces you can put in the fort without triggering an enemy advantage. If you hover the mouse over the radial-looking button at the far right of the screen, you can determine how many elements it can hold without granting a hit bonus to the enemy. Don't use more than that, and have a relief force handy.
Forts are bloody expensive to maintain, but they can be quite useful under the right circumstances.
Edit: Generals with Defensive Engineer, Entrencher, Fort Defender, and Engineer traits will help it hold much longer than normal.
Forts are bloody expensive to maintain, but they can be quite useful under the right circumstances.
Edit: Generals with Defensive Engineer, Entrencher, Fort Defender, and Engineer traits will help it hold much longer than normal.
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Captain_Orso
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Yes, that's what the overcrowding rule is that I mentioned above. You can read about it here: Overcrowding Rule.
Also, if you want to know more about how siege works, you can read about it here: Manual:Siege combat and here: Sieges and breaches.
Also, if you want to know more about how siege works, you can read about it here: Manual:Siege combat and here: Sieges and breaches.
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Poorlaggedman
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Thanks...
I knew I'd get good help.
So any rumor on getting back the ability to glide through the days of movement on the minimap like in ACW I? I get confused as to where enemy stacks are moving very often. I can't always tell if an enemy stack is moving away or making a bee line forced march for my undefended rear. Are there any useful tricks to figure that out other than recording the action phase with a camera and carefully studying it? It really helps to be able to see the turn replay out day by day
I knew I'd get good help.
So any rumor on getting back the ability to glide through the days of movement on the minimap like in ACW I? I get confused as to where enemy stacks are moving very often. I can't always tell if an enemy stack is moving away or making a bee line forced march for my undefended rear. Are there any useful tricks to figure that out other than recording the action phase with a camera and carefully studying it? It really helps to be able to see the turn replay out day by day
A stockade, fort or citadel can hold 25 elements, or a little more than a Division without overcrowding. If you want to hold the region where you have one of these structures, then place a Division inside the structure with at least a 2-element supply unit and a depot. Also, artillery entrenched in the structure is more accurate, so this would be a good idea.
This size force with a supply unit will only surrender 5% of the time under siege.
If you put the Division outside the structure, even set to Hold At All Cost, the Division will retreat away from the region if a large enemy force attacks. The game engine does not understand HAAC.
If you set the Division to retreat into the structure, then they will get ripped apart and the shattered remnants will retreat into the structure where they will no longer be able to hold it.
A line of strongpoints needs a strong, mobile reserve to relieve any of the points under siege before they end up breached or surrender.
This size force with a supply unit will only surrender 5% of the time under siege.
If you put the Division outside the structure, even set to Hold At All Cost, the Division will retreat away from the region if a large enemy force attacks. The game engine does not understand HAAC.
If you set the Division to retreat into the structure, then they will get ripped apart and the shattered remnants will retreat into the structure where they will no longer be able to hold it.
A line of strongpoints needs a strong, mobile reserve to relieve any of the points under siege before they end up breached or surrender.
I'm the 51st shade of gray. Eat, pray, Charge!
Rod Smart wrote:Use forts along water with cannons to kill ships and supply, or as the union to blockade ports.
Use forts out west to move supply to the front
Don't put big forces into forts, its a trap and a good way to lose armies and NM
The first is more effectively accomplished by a small force with a few big guns and an engineer.
The second is more about being able to stalemate the weak Far Western forces. Stockades pull supply far beyond their weight, and a few depots help to keep it moving forward. Conversely, if you lose the Far West, burn down every settlement and stockade you can reach. It takes about four turns and forces the enemy to spend about a year rebuilding infrastructure.
The third point is well made, though if you're confident of relief, manning a fort can be a serious hindrance to the enemy.
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Poorlaggedman
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Right now I'm dealing with a Union AI that is pretty strong in the Far West (I'm still stronger) and has a 6,000 CP force in Washington that's not doing anything at all. I didn't foresee this. But in hindsight, I seem to remember this from the last ACW game after I captured Alexandria, VA.
The AI seems too afraid to move units out of D.C. in large numbers.
The AI seems too afraid to move units out of D.C. in large numbers.
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Poorlaggedman
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It's possible to put all of your military units in one region, however only a few of them will get to participate in combat. The actual number is dependent on frontage, the overall conmmander's stats and weather/terrain. If Lee is in charge of a force, then perhaps 50 combat type elements (infantry or cavalry) and 15 support elements (artillery) will get to fight. You can check this by clicking on a stack commanded by Lee and then using the map terrain filter to cursor over a region like the one where D.C. is and see what the menu tells you. An overall commander with lower stats would command fewer troops. So if someone like Butler is in overall command of the 10,000 power force in D.C. and you attack with a numerically smaller army commanded by Lee, the battle may involve more Confederate troops than Union. The troops that are not involved act as a reserve, filling in when elements rout or withdraw. If Lee grinds up too many of the Union units, they may all chain rout and leave the battlefield. So that 10K power defense force in D.C. may not be as daunting as it looks.
I'm the 51st shade of gray. Eat, pray, Charge!
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Captain_Orso
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This is very true, except that Washington is clear terrain and offers in good weather room for 60 artillery and 180 line infantry elements in frontage. With lot's of artillery on the line even a very poor defender will do some nasty damage to even Lee attacking, but Lee's force will have a much greater average morale and will fight much longer and could break Union morale far more easily than the other way around.
Do we actually know this to be true?
This was certainly the case in AACW, but I do not find this to happen in CW2. The terrain filter never gives numbers like these no matter who is the commander, or what is the terrain/weather. I also never get battle reports where 100+ elements fought in a battle. The largest force I get is the 50-60 combat elements and 15-20 support. Either the terrain filter is interesting but useless in this respect or the forces that actually fight are much smaller than they were in AACW, which I have reported elsewhere.
This was certainly the case in AACW, but I do not find this to happen in CW2. The terrain filter never gives numbers like these no matter who is the commander, or what is the terrain/weather. I also never get battle reports where 100+ elements fought in a battle. The largest force I get is the 50-60 combat elements and 15-20 support. Either the terrain filter is interesting but useless in this respect or the forces that actually fight are much smaller than they were in AACW, which I have reported elsewhere.
I'm the 51st shade of gray. Eat, pray, Charge!
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Captain_Orso
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Good that you ask. The answer is a definite ... I have to look it up again 
. Looking at the map again I see that I've mixed up frontage 'points' with elements 
leure:. So kudos to you good sir for calling me out 
.
With the Terrain filter <7> applied it shows absolute frontage at 180 line and 60 support 'POINTS'. This is determined by the terrain alone, as far as I can tell. However, if you pick a stack it will also also show you frontage for that stack in elements, which is much lower. Looking at another region with Clear terrain/Clear weather (Fairfax, VA(Alexandria) with an Grant's army stack and a Berry's corps stack, I see that both show the same stack frontage in elements (46 line/ 15 support). This I believe is taking the highest ranking leader in the region into account, thus all stacks have the same values.
If you look at the Frontage Primer, and Questions (which is actually in the old AACW forum, but should still apply) the 'frontage points' are referred to as the "Combat unit Quota". The primer says that the Combat unit Quota is modified by the regional commander's stats. This is NOT reflected in the region's tool-tip in the frontage points and I'm also not sure if it is reflected in the 'Frontage Width (in elements)'. Debugging this would be a real bitch, because it is dependent on best-commander and weather. Setting up a test-scenario in which various command situations would be reflected under identical weather and terrain conditions is very time consuming
.
At any rate, the statement that the better the commander (rank, strategic rating, offensive/defensive rating(as may apply)) the more elements that will be in frontage, is the whole point and this is how a good commander an equal (or even smaller number) of troops can defeat a poor commander. Also, traits which increase mobility (fast mover ability *cough*cough*Jackson*cough*) will allow that commander to put more of his units into the frontage, because they take up less of the frontage.
. Looking at the map again I see that I've mixed up frontage 'points' with elements leure:. So kudos to you good sir for calling me out 
.
With the Terrain filter <7> applied it shows absolute frontage at 180 line and 60 support 'POINTS'. This is determined by the terrain alone, as far as I can tell. However, if you pick a stack it will also also show you frontage for that stack in elements, which is much lower. Looking at another region with Clear terrain/Clear weather (Fairfax, VA(Alexandria) with an Grant's army stack and a Berry's corps stack, I see that both show the same stack frontage in elements (46 line/ 15 support). This I believe is taking the highest ranking leader in the region into account, thus all stacks have the same values.
If you look at the Frontage Primer, and Questions (which is actually in the old AACW forum, but should still apply) the 'frontage points' are referred to as the "Combat unit Quota". The primer says that the Combat unit Quota is modified by the regional commander's stats. This is NOT reflected in the region's tool-tip in the frontage points and I'm also not sure if it is reflected in the 'Frontage Width (in elements)'. Debugging this would be a real bitch, because it is dependent on best-commander and weather. Setting up a test-scenario in which various command situations would be reflected under identical weather and terrain conditions is very time consuming
.
At any rate, the statement that the better the commander (rank, strategic rating, offensive/defensive rating(as may apply)) the more elements that will be in frontage, is the whole point and this is how a good commander an equal (or even smaller number) of troops can defeat a poor commander. Also, traits which increase mobility (fast mover ability *cough*cough*Jackson*cough*) will allow that commander to put more of his units into the frontage, because they take up less of the frontage.
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Captain_Orso
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Okay, so this whole Frontage Tool-tip thing has been bugging me.
In short, with the Terrain Filter <7> applied and a stack selected, leadership plays no role in the displayed elements frontage (tool-tip paragraph directly above the "number of days to enter this region" message, near the bottom of the tool-tip.
The Frontage Primer however states that the commander's rank and offensive/defensive rating play a large role in modifying the frontage points a stack can use:
Test settings:
Kentucky Department (army) Schofield *** 3-2-3
McClellan ** 1-1-3
Curtis * 3-2-2 (7th Division commander, highest ranking brigadier)
4x Division: (10x inf, 1x sharps, 2x cav, 4x art) each
Tolono, IL Clear terrain, only clear weather tested.
Stack: Kentucky Department, McClellan, 4x divisions
Stack: McClellan's Corps of the Kentucky Department with 4x division, with the Kentucky Department still in Tolono, IL
Stack: McClellan's Corps of the Kentucky Department with 4x division, with the Kentucky Department neighboring region
Stack: 4x division with Curtis higher ranking
These illustrations demonstrate that rank and offensive/defensive values are not referenced for the elements frontage.
In short, with the Terrain Filter <7> applied and a stack selected, leadership plays no role in the displayed elements frontage (tool-tip paragraph directly above the "number of days to enter this region" message, near the bottom of the tool-tip.
The Frontage Primer however states that the commander's rank and offensive/defensive rating play a large role in modifying the frontage points a stack can use:
Combat Units Quota: (+25 points)*(rank)*(off/def rating)
Support Units Quota: (+10 points)*(rank)*(off/def rating)
Test settings:
Kentucky Department (army) Schofield *** 3-2-3
McClellan ** 1-1-3
Curtis * 3-2-2 (7th Division commander, highest ranking brigadier)
4x Division: (10x inf, 1x sharps, 2x cav, 4x art) each
Tolono, IL Clear terrain, only clear weather tested.
Stack: Kentucky Department, McClellan, 4x divisions
Stack: McClellan's Corps of the Kentucky Department with 4x division, with the Kentucky Department still in Tolono, IL
Stack: McClellan's Corps of the Kentucky Department with 4x division, with the Kentucky Department neighboring region
Stack: 4x division with Curtis higher ranking
These illustrations demonstrate that rank and offensive/defensive values are not referenced for the elements frontage.
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