War supply figures not showing negative balance

[PJL]

Been playing the Rebs in CW2 and notice when you choose the various armouries / arsenal options have noticed that if my stock is say below the amount needed for that option, instead of a negative figure, it just gives another positive. Or rather there appears to be no change whatsoever (certainly no minus sign, or even a change in colour, red for example).

This makes things very confusing, as I haven't a clue what is happening otherwise. Could at least something be done about making it clearer. Surely it can't be that much of a bother to actually make it change colour if it goes into a negative figure?

BTW, how do the options work? Is it really true than a payment of 50/75 WS & 150/300 $ only gives a turn increase of a 1/2 WS & money? If so, that is a poor trade off, considering that there are only 100 or so turns in the game. Much better if they were cheaper so that they start paying after 10-20 turns.

[Merlin]

There are multiple structures built for each decision, so the investment is better than it looks at first glance. You can build around 3-4 of the first industry decisions and 1-2 of the second decisions and the South will never run out of WSU or ammo ever again.

[ohms_law]

Yea, there's really way too much industrialization available to the Confederate player. It makes for a fun game, if you know what you're doing, but...
*shrug*

Cash is normally the limiting factor for Confederate players from about Mid-1862 on.

[Captain_Orso]

Actually, all the factories and structures that you can pay for are historical. Every one of them actually existed and produced war materials. This is the same for the North and South.

From an historical perspective you can talk about how much of each resource they should produce and how much they should cost, but their existence is historical.

[ohms_law]

I never said that their existence wasn't historical.

[Captain_Orso]

No you didn't. I'm just going from the assumption that if the facilities were historically present, that they should be in the game. So imagine, if the CS player built all of the facilities, what his resources would look like and what affect that would have on the game.

I conjecture, if historically all of those facilities were working, at one time or another, during the war and the South still suffered chronically from a lack of supplies and resources to keep its armies well armed and supplied, if in the game the player can get along well without building all of those facilities, then the ones he does build are producing far too much.

[minipol]

True, and the cost to build them would also be way to high. To be completely historical, you should be able to build them all.
That's why I think it's pretty well balanced the way it's now. You can build some industry from the start but you can't keep doing it otherwise you won't have
the resources to build troops. So it's up to the player to decide where to draw the line at the start and see if it was the right choice from the end of 1862 to the end of the war.
I think the current system captures this fine balance really good.

[ohms_law]

I think that the problem with the Confederate economy is that, in real life, they didn't really suffer from a lack of goods, but rather a lack of specific goods. Shoes, for example.
That and, as we were discussing in the supply thread, it's simply too easy to get supplies where you need them.

As an aside, the other problem is that there's no sense of "rich man's war, poor man's fight".
No clue what could be done about that, but...
well, there is it.

[tripax]

Putting aside issues with supply and the in-game economy, I have that bug, too. I think I do see a negative sign when the amount is only one digit. That is, I see "-4" but not "-40".

As for issues with the in-game economy, as ohms_law said, "well, there is it." ; )

[Ol' Choctaw]

Historically the fact is the south was not that short of any supplies. They just could not get them to where they were needed. It was a matter of transport and logistics systems that were to blame.

The two items in shortest supply were Saltpeter and Copper. Both were needed for ammunition, gunpowder and primer caps. Yet they never ran out.

It was much more the short sightedness of the government to prioritize in these areas that lead to chronic shortages. Something players rarely do.

[ohms_law]

It seems to me that the Confederacy (more specifically, Josiah Gorgas) did an excellent job of either bootstrapping their own production (which was virtually non-existent prior to the war), trading for (thanks to Caleb Huse), our stealing the supplies that they needed to keep their war effort going. It doesn't seem to me that the Davis administration was particularly short sighted, only that there was just so much they could accomplish during wartime conditions from nearly nothing.

Transportation was the Confederacy's biggest problem.

Anyway, yea, the display not showing up properly is an obvious problem. The same thing (or very similar, at least) was happening in EAW, too. It seems so obvious a problem that perhaps it may be getting overlooked. It's seemingly been a problem through multiple patches, now.

[Captain_Orso]

One thing just came to mind. If the South had no facilities for building rail locomotives nor rolling stock, then what the South had at the start of the war was all that she could ever have--barring the trains Jackson stole in Harpers Ferry in '61--. The South could repair rail lines relatively easily--until the Sherman Necktie was invented--but she could not increase her capacity in any way.

This is most certainly not represented in the game.

[Merlin]

It seems to me that the Confederacy (more specifically, Josiah Gorgas) did an excellent job of either bootstrapping their own production (which was virtually non-existent prior to the war), trading for (thanks to Caleb Huse), our stealing the supplies that they needed to keep their war effort going. It doesn't seem to me that the Davis administration was particularly short sighted, only that there was just so much they could accomplish during wartime conditions from nearly nothing.

Transportation was the Confederacy's biggest problem.

Anyway, yea, the display not showing up properly is an obvious problem. The same thing (or very similar, at least) was happening in EAW, too. It seems so obvious a problem that perhaps it may be getting overlooked. It's seemingly been a problem through multiple patches, now.

The Confederacy worked some minor miracles when it can to scrounging and non-traditional acquisition. As for the display bug, I definitely had negative numbers prior to 1.04.

One thing just came to mind. If the South had no facilities for building rail locomotives nor rolling stock, then what the South had at the start of the war was all that she could ever have--barring the trains Jackson stole in Harpers Ferry in '61--. The South could repair rail lines relatively easily--until the Sherman Necktie was invented--but she could not increase her capacity in any way.

This is most certainly not represented in the game.

No, it's not. I don't know how much we really want that in the game though. Lack of rail stock was one of the primary reasons the Confederacy couldn't get supplies where they were wanted, but winning as the Confederacy is difficult enough. I can't really see changes, unless there is some novel idea proposed by some bright soul, making the game any more fun than it is.

[minipol]

One thing just came to mind. If the South had no facilities for building rail locomotives nor rolling stock, then what the South had at the start of the war was all that she could ever have--barring the trains Jackson stole in Harpers Ferry in '61--. The South could repair rail lines relatively easily--until the Sherman Necktie was invented--but she could not increase her capacity in any way.

This is most certainly not represented in the game.

No, but surely there were other ways of transporting goods. Maybe not in big quantities but other methods probably were there.
These aren't represented in the game either.
The start of the big campaign portrays the deficiencies well enough. We as the players have the power of hindsight and we get the means in the game to change them.,
as it should be, otherwise there's no point in replaying the game if the outset is already fixed.
The reason why we can give the Union a run for it's money is because we can micromanage, we now what to do because of history and the AI isn't as resourceful as we are.
I think it's all pretty much balanced the way it is, even if GS seems a bit high but as some have said, GS in real life weren't a problem, getting them to the troops was.
But this is were the game excells, it starts out historically and gives us the means to change it.

[Ol' Choctaw]

One thing just came to mind. If the South had no facilities for building rail locomotives nor rolling stock, then what the South had at the start of the war was all that she could ever have--barring the trains Jackson stole in Harpers Ferry in '61--. The South could repair rail lines relatively easily--until the Sherman Necktie was invented--but she could not increase her capacity in any way.

This is most certainly not represented in the game.

The problem was not building locomotives or rolling stock. It was getting the materials to build them all at one time and keeping the facility safe.

Almost all of the facilities existed at the beginning of the war, some few were purpose built but not many. Many of the cannon manufacturers were offering cannon for sale in newspaper adds even before the war began. Each railroad had at least on depot for building or overhauling their stock. Quite a few could build the required steam engines. It was what happened after the war started that fouled it up.

Because machinery was in short supply much of it was taken or used for other purposes. Rather than wait for iron to be delivered rail stocks were taken for other uses and the poor transportation system delayed deliveries. Many machine shops were set to making cannon or shells that could have built steam engines.

Further, it was unconstitutional for the government to pay for roads and railroads, until the realized they could for military reasons.

When the government conscripted all the rolling stock there was no incentive for the rail companies to maintain the equipment.

Because the lacked they infrastructure of the north they needed to build capacity in many areas. They concentrated on armaments and managed them quite well but had they developed their transport to the same extent many of the problems would have cured themselves.

The south depended on private companies to build and expand the facilities themselves while taking up most of the available labor force. Without government oversight it was not going to happen.

[Captain_Orso]

No, but surely there were other ways of transporting goods. Maybe not in big quantities but other methods probably were there.
These aren't represented in the game either.
The start of the big campaign portrays the deficiencies well enough. We as the players have the power of hindsight and we get the means in the game to change them.,
as it should be, otherwise there's no point in replaying the game if the outset is already fixed.
The reason why we can give the Union a run for it's money is because we can micromanage, we now what to do because of history and the AI isn't as resourceful as we are.
I think it's all pretty much balanced the way it is, even if GS seems a bit high but as some have said, GS in real life weren't a problem, getting them to the troops was.
But this is were the game excells, it starts out historically and gives us the means to change it.

Yes, there were other means to transport goods in the era, and the game does represent them. There was oceanic shipping, shipping through river-waterways and overland per wagon. All these are in the game.

The "outset" of the game should be historical. Of course the player should be, and is, allowed to change the strategy of the South and try to extract a different outcome. That's the point of the game.

What should not be done, is creating unrealistic options; at least not without there being presented as ahistorical--not un-historical, but science-fiction or fantasy.

The problem was not building locomotives or rolling stock. It was getting the materials to build them all at one time and keeping the facility safe.

Almost all of the facilities existed at the beginning of the war, some few were purpose built but not many. Many of the cannon manufacturers were offering cannon for sale in newspaper adds even before the war began. Each railroad had at least on depot for building or overhauling their stock. Quite a few could build the required steam engines. It was what happened after the war started that fouled it up.

Because machinery was in short supply much of it was taken or used for other purposes. Rather than wait for iron to be delivered rail stocks were taken for other uses and the poor transportation system delayed deliveries. Many machine shops were set to making cannon or shells that could have built steam engines.

Further, it was unconstitutional for the government to pay for roads and railroads, until the realized they could for military reasons.

When the government conscripted all the rolling stock there was no incentive for the rail companies to maintain the equipment.

Because the lacked they infrastructure of the north they needed to build capacity in many areas. They concentrated on armaments and managed them quite well but had they developed their transport to the same extent many of the problems would have cured themselves.

The south depended on private companies to build and expand the facilities themselves while taking up most of the available labor force. Without government oversight it was not going to happen.

Thanks OC, that's something I didn't know.

What keeps rattling around my mind is the fact that ALL the industrial options are historical. They actually were producing war-goods for the Confederacy during the war. Yet players NEVER actually build all of them and some actually claim that they don't need to build any of them at all.

I find the costs for these facilities to be so far over proportional to be ridiculous. They produce too much. They cost too much. They generally are not even built. And according to some, they are not even needed.

--

And this is so far off the original subject of this thread , god I hate doing that.