I'm sitting here recruiting brigades and wondering how other people do it. Seems like an opportunity to discuss and create some wiki fodder.
So:
1: when recruiting troops do you favor larger mixed brigades, or do you favor smaller brigades of just cavalry, infantry, or artillery?
2: Should divisions be "filled" as much as possible or are more, smaller, divisions better?
3: How do you strategic planning? (What states to recruit from, how and where to organize the raw brigades into new divisions, do you train them or send them directly to the front?)
(Bonus: for Union players, how do you go about raising fleets customized for your needs: blockade, river, and amphibious assaults etc. ?)
I think these questions can help kick start a discussion, but feel free to add other things to think about when raising troops.
For my part, I always have to remind myself to recruit cavalry because it never seems like I have enough!
1) There's a couple things to consider.
-Imbedded 6 pound cannons do not upgrade, but independent ones do. So I try to avoid raising brigades with integrated artillery.
-The opposite is true for brigades with cavalry. Pocus has said that large (Corps-sized) stacks without at least 4 cavalry suffer a hiding malus. Given that cavalry is scarce, especially for the Union, I build brigades with cavalry and put those in my divisions. The independent cavalry can be put into their own divisions with horse artillery for raids and screening.
2) There's a lot of debate about ideal division size and composition. I prefer bigger divisions since it reduces the chance that the individual elements in the divisions will be destroyed. The "standard" division is 11 infantry, 1 cavalry, 4 artillery, and a sharpshooter (plus the leader). But people have different opinions on what is best and it comes down to what you are actually planning on using a division for.
3) I don't pay attention to states so much as what I need. For example, when it comes to the Union Pennsylvania has a lot of 2 infantry/1 Sharpshooter brigades, Maryland builds one of the few eastern 2 infantry/1 cavalry brigades. Early on I try to build without having to use rails as much as possible, so I avoid the far northern states as much as I can. That way, I don't have to invest as much in rail early in the game when war supplies are hard to come by.
Since the same brigades appear every game, I have built a spreadsheet planner that I can refer to. That way I can plan out what I need to build to add to brigades that appear and have full divisions.
Some people build solely militia. I tend to build a mix since I can't seem to train fast enough and want one cavalry per division, but try to conserve the independent cavalry. Remember that leaders who are locked when they first appear, like McClellan, can still train units that are in the same city even if those units are locked as well.
The most important thing is resource management. Look at what the build is costing and decide if you can get something cheaper without trading too much combat power. Use the loyalty cards to boost production of money and war supplies, especially on the gold fields. It will make a difference. And pay attention to replacements: they can be costly. You might be better off building new units early in the game rather than trying to keep the recommended 10% level. I usually keep about 5% or less.
4) Navies. First, look at the fleets that appear. Many are understrength. If you put them in passive in a naval yard, they will have elements added and fill out, as long as you have enough replacements available. This will give you 11 blockade squadrons. If you put 5 in each box, that will take you up to 40% blockade and give you one extra squadron. After 40%, it's not cost effective to put any more blockade fleets in the boxes.
I prefer fort taking so I usually have a coastal division ready to go. Many of the Confederate forts, once taken, can blockade the ports they were meant to defend, which frees up ships for other duties. Just be sure to defend them well, because the Confederate AI is a lot more aggressive than the real Confederates were in retaking forts. If you do plan on invasions pick up marines and sailors and put them in a division. Marines cost a bit more but are much more powerful. On the other hand, you can get free sailors if you use the decision card. Alternately, you can always choose to land the troops on one turn and then attack on the next and not have to worry about the amphibious penalty or marines and sailors.
Athena also builds a lot more ironclads (and fleets in general, at least on harder settings) than the real rebels did, so plan on having a lot of them- especially on the rivers. I like to build enough gunboats (you need 4 elements present) to block river crossings and raids in vulnerable areas. They usually need protection, so have some ironclads for offensive and defensive operations. Putting an ironclad at the major river confluences might be enough to prevent a disaster.
-Imbedded 6 pound cannons do not upgrade, but independent ones do. So I try to avoid raising brigades with integrated artillery.
-The opposite is true for brigades with cavalry. Pocus has said that large (Corps-sized) stacks without at least 4 cavalry suffer a hiding malus. Given that cavalry is scarce, especially for the Union, I build brigades with cavalry and put those in my divisions. The independent cavalry can be put into their own divisions with horse artillery for raids and screening.
2) There's a lot of debate about ideal division size and composition. I prefer bigger divisions since it reduces the chance that the individual elements in the divisions will be destroyed. The "standard" division is 11 infantry, 1 cavalry, 4 artillery, and a sharpshooter (plus the leader). But people have different opinions on what is best and it comes down to what you are actually planning on using a division for.
3) I don't pay attention to states so much as what I need. For example, when it comes to the Union Pennsylvania has a lot of 2 infantry/1 Sharpshooter brigades, Maryland builds one of the few eastern 2 infantry/1 cavalry brigades. Early on I try to build without having to use rails as much as possible, so I avoid the far northern states as much as I can. That way, I don't have to invest as much in rail early in the game when war supplies are hard to come by.
Since the same brigades appear every game, I have built a spreadsheet planner that I can refer to. That way I can plan out what I need to build to add to brigades that appear and have full divisions.
Some people build solely militia. I tend to build a mix since I can't seem to train fast enough and want one cavalry per division, but try to conserve the independent cavalry. Remember that leaders who are locked when they first appear, like McClellan, can still train units that are in the same city even if those units are locked as well.
The most important thing is resource management. Look at what the build is costing and decide if you can get something cheaper without trading too much combat power. Use the loyalty cards to boost production of money and war supplies, especially on the gold fields. It will make a difference. And pay attention to replacements: they can be costly. You might be better off building new units early in the game rather than trying to keep the recommended 10% level. I usually keep about 5% or less.
4) Navies. First, look at the fleets that appear. Many are understrength. If you put them in passive in a naval yard, they will have elements added and fill out, as long as you have enough replacements available. This will give you 11 blockade squadrons. If you put 5 in each box, that will take you up to 40% blockade and give you one extra squadron. After 40%, it's not cost effective to put any more blockade fleets in the boxes.
I prefer fort taking so I usually have a coastal division ready to go. Many of the Confederate forts, once taken, can blockade the ports they were meant to defend, which frees up ships for other duties. Just be sure to defend them well, because the Confederate AI is a lot more aggressive than the real Confederates were in retaking forts. If you do plan on invasions pick up marines and sailors and put them in a division. Marines cost a bit more but are much more powerful. On the other hand, you can get free sailors if you use the decision card. Alternately, you can always choose to land the troops on one turn and then attack on the next and not have to worry about the amphibious penalty or marines and sailors.
Athena also builds a lot more ironclads (and fleets in general, at least on harder settings) than the real rebels did, so plan on having a lot of them- especially on the rivers. I like to build enough gunboats (you need 4 elements present) to block river crossings and raids in vulnerable areas. They usually need protection, so have some ironclads for offensive and defensive operations. Putting an ironclad at the major river confluences might be enough to prevent a disaster.
"Thank God. I thought it was a New York Regiment."- Unknown Confederate major, upon learning he had surrendered to the 6th Wisconsin.
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ArmChairGeneral
- AGEod Grognard
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- Location: Austin, TX, USA
Edit: some of these points were already made by Keeler while I was composing this 
1.) I only play CSA: I tend toward the smaller brigades and recruiting Artillery separately. I don't have a lot of money in the opening, and I need to spread recruits around the map. Early in the game the 6lbers in large brigades are better than nothing, but eventually end up taking frontage from 20s and Columbiads. Larger brigades take longer to build, (because of the artillery) which sometimes matters. Smaller brigades make it easier to structure divisions the way I want them. OTOH large brigades (the ones in the 1.02 VA force pool have 9 elements!) cost fewer command points than the equivalent number of "loose" elements when they are not in divisions. I purchase large brigades to build new divisions around. I purchase smaller brigades and artillery in order to fill out existing divisions.
2.) I like 17 element divisions in order to minimize command penalties. Makes things a little less flexible but really helps lot in early combat: command penalties really hurt. Also, if two lighter divisions are in separate stacks they may not join each other in combat, whereas putting everyone into one div guarantees that they will participate (within frontage limitations of course). If I had more leaders smaller divs might make sense more often. I still use smaller divs when necessary but fuller is better IMO. Inside a corps or army, I am indifferent to the size of divisions since there are usually plenty of CPs to go around.
3.) As CSA, obviously I like to get as much of the VA force pool onto the map as quickly as possible, usually at Alexandria (if I have it) or in the Valley at whichever city is safer. If I am not doing well, everything gets built at Richmond. Either way, VA doesn't have 10lbers, so those get built in NC. I build (and organize) at Memphis (TN pool) and Corinth/Holly Springs (MS pool) for defense of the river, and at Nashville (TN pool) to prepare to rush Louisville. As soon as I get KY, I concentrate on building in Bowling Green, or better yet, Louisville because I may not have access to the KY force pool later in the game. I tend to go straight for Louisville to get a forward build point right in the heart of the Indianapolis/Columbus/Lexington/Cincinnati cluster (all strategic or objective cities); troops built in KY are able to join this fight quickly, and the KY force pool is very large. It is critical for the South to get and hold Springfield MO early in order to build (the limited) force pool in MO; otherwise everything has to trickle in from Memphis/Little Rock by rail, river and a walk across the Ozarks. Most of my Gulf reaction force gets built in New Orleans, training up under Bragg while they wait to see where the Union will land (I always build a couple of sea transports there so I can move the QRF freely along the Gulf Coast.) In TX I build wherever is needed, but I hardly build in AL/GA/FL/SC except to garrison or possibly as a QRF for the Atlantic coast (my lowest priority against Athena).
I usually form up planned divisions as soon as the leader I want is active, even if I am only putting one element in it to start: more troops are coming, and when they get there I don't want to have to wait around for activations to get organized. I try to keep my best 1*'s in charge of divs and so send them to where they will need to be ahead of time, even if the troops aren't ordered yet. If I am playing with hard Activation Rule I try to form divisions within armies or corps if I can: they are prone to going inactive and becoming fixed for several turn when formed on their own. As the CSA, training happens as close to the front as possible. I only have one leader that can upgrade conscripts so he goes to Louisville or wherever I am doing the most building; he can only do two elements per turn, so I keep him at my busiest forward build point to upgrade the conscripts in new brigades for immediate use. Occasionally I will have him train some militia, but this is more so that I don't have to commit whole brigades to control captured cities than for the $ savings. HQs and Training Masters (the experience guys) go to large front line stacks to maximize the number of elements they affect per turn, except for Bragg who trains everyone in place at New Orleans (he isn't much use for anything else).
I hardly ever purchase cav outright for use in divisions, there are plenty of brigades with cav attached. Individual cav elements get built for scouting/MC busting stacks (2 cav, 1 cav art), and I never have as many as I need/want either! I have not had the combat success with large cav divisions that I had in AACW, so don't use them much anymore except in the case of the Laurel Brigade (it costs 4 CP anyway, so it might as well form a division with a couple of extra cav artillery).
1.) I only play CSA: I tend toward the smaller brigades and recruiting Artillery separately. I don't have a lot of money in the opening, and I need to spread recruits around the map. Early in the game the 6lbers in large brigades are better than nothing, but eventually end up taking frontage from 20s and Columbiads. Larger brigades take longer to build, (because of the artillery) which sometimes matters. Smaller brigades make it easier to structure divisions the way I want them. OTOH large brigades (the ones in the 1.02 VA force pool have 9 elements!) cost fewer command points than the equivalent number of "loose" elements when they are not in divisions. I purchase large brigades to build new divisions around. I purchase smaller brigades and artillery in order to fill out existing divisions.
2.) I like 17 element divisions in order to minimize command penalties. Makes things a little less flexible but really helps lot in early combat: command penalties really hurt. Also, if two lighter divisions are in separate stacks they may not join each other in combat, whereas putting everyone into one div guarantees that they will participate (within frontage limitations of course). If I had more leaders smaller divs might make sense more often. I still use smaller divs when necessary but fuller is better IMO. Inside a corps or army, I am indifferent to the size of divisions since there are usually plenty of CPs to go around.
3.) As CSA, obviously I like to get as much of the VA force pool onto the map as quickly as possible, usually at Alexandria (if I have it) or in the Valley at whichever city is safer. If I am not doing well, everything gets built at Richmond. Either way, VA doesn't have 10lbers, so those get built in NC. I build (and organize) at Memphis (TN pool) and Corinth/Holly Springs (MS pool) for defense of the river, and at Nashville (TN pool) to prepare to rush Louisville. As soon as I get KY, I concentrate on building in Bowling Green, or better yet, Louisville because I may not have access to the KY force pool later in the game. I tend to go straight for Louisville to get a forward build point right in the heart of the Indianapolis/Columbus/Lexington/Cincinnati cluster (all strategic or objective cities); troops built in KY are able to join this fight quickly, and the KY force pool is very large. It is critical for the South to get and hold Springfield MO early in order to build (the limited) force pool in MO; otherwise everything has to trickle in from Memphis/Little Rock by rail, river and a walk across the Ozarks. Most of my Gulf reaction force gets built in New Orleans, training up under Bragg while they wait to see where the Union will land (I always build a couple of sea transports there so I can move the QRF freely along the Gulf Coast.) In TX I build wherever is needed, but I hardly build in AL/GA/FL/SC except to garrison or possibly as a QRF for the Atlantic coast (my lowest priority against Athena).
I usually form up planned divisions as soon as the leader I want is active, even if I am only putting one element in it to start: more troops are coming, and when they get there I don't want to have to wait around for activations to get organized. I try to keep my best 1*'s in charge of divs and so send them to where they will need to be ahead of time, even if the troops aren't ordered yet. If I am playing with hard Activation Rule I try to form divisions within armies or corps if I can: they are prone to going inactive and becoming fixed for several turn when formed on their own. As the CSA, training happens as close to the front as possible. I only have one leader that can upgrade conscripts so he goes to Louisville or wherever I am doing the most building; he can only do two elements per turn, so I keep him at my busiest forward build point to upgrade the conscripts in new brigades for immediate use. Occasionally I will have him train some militia, but this is more so that I don't have to commit whole brigades to control captured cities than for the $ savings. HQs and Training Masters (the experience guys) go to large front line stacks to maximize the number of elements they affect per turn, except for Bragg who trains everyone in place at New Orleans (he isn't much use for anything else).
I hardly ever purchase cav outright for use in divisions, there are plenty of brigades with cav attached. Individual cav elements get built for scouting/MC busting stacks (2 cav, 1 cav art), and I never have as many as I need/want either! I have not had the combat success with large cav divisions that I had in AACW, so don't use them much anymore except in the case of the Laurel Brigade (it costs 4 CP anyway, so it might as well form a division with a couple of extra cav artillery).
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pgr
- General of the Army
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Do we know what 6 pounders get upgraded to? Into late 6 pounders, or do they tun into 12 pounders? I suppose upgrades happen automatically, or does the unit have to be in a depot, trained, certain experience, forces in the replacement pool etc? Depending on how upgrades work, it might make sense then to recruit 6 pounders exclusively to start? I just don't have a full sense of how upgrades work in the game.
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Ol' Choctaw
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pgr
- General of the Army
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Ol' Choctaw wrote:All 6lber artillery have a chance each turn per event of upgrading to 12lber.
CS 6lber have a 4% chance per turn starting in '62.
US 6lder have a 12% chance from war's start up to the end of '62. In '63 they have a 15% chance and from '64 onwards they have a 17% chance.
So it is coded then. And those %ages apply to arty embedded in brigades, or just for independent batteries?
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Ol' Choctaw
- Posts: 1642
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Ol' Choctaw wrote:independent batteries, so far as I know.
That sure?
I think I dreamt a hint of remembering, that in ACW1 they got all upgraded, provided there was enough chits in the replacement pool. Either I don't remember that correctly or it has changed since.
"I am here already.", said the hedgehog to the hare.
Here's the link about infantry builds, for anyone interested.
Ace has said only independent batteries have a chance at upgrading. There were a couple of us over at Matrix who requested it returning to some form of the old system where they all have an opportunity to become 12lbers.
Citizen X wrote:That sure?
I think I dreamt a hint of remembering, that in ACW1 they got all upgraded, provided there was enough chits in the replacement pool. Either I don't remember that correctly or it has changed since.
Ace has said only independent batteries have a chance at upgrading. There were a couple of us over at Matrix who requested it returning to some form of the old system where they all have an opportunity to become 12lbers.
"Thank God. I thought it was a New York Regiment."- Unknown Confederate major, upon learning he had surrendered to the 6th Wisconsin.
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GraniteStater
- AGEod Guard of Honor
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- Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:16 am
- Location: Annapolis, MD - What?
Keeler wrote:Here's the link about infantry builds, for anyone interested.
Ace has said only independent batteries have a chance at upgrading. There were a couple of us over at Matrix who requested it returning to some form of the old system where they all have an opportunity to become 12lbers.
Heavens to Betsy, yes. Historical accuracy is not the end-all and be-all of this game, although highly important. I tend to give breaks to playability and the modeling of the application. This is, however, a Big Deal. As has been pointed out, within a year or so, almost all Union formations had switched to 12-lb Napoleons. Even the Rebs didn't stick with pop-guns, especially for line infantry units. Not having the upgrade really kicks the Union in a strength it should have, artillery.
And the CSA player wouldn't demur if those giant brigades got 12-lbers overnight at some point.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
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pgr
- General of the Army
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- Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:33 pm
- Location: Paris France (by way of Wyoming)
Keeler wrote:Here's the link about infantry builds, for anyone interested.
Thanks for the link! If we move the conversation to say the corps/army level, I'd like to hear what people think about for putting together corps, the use of specialized support units like HQ support, pontoon units, RR brigades/contrabands, leaders with training attributes etc.
I tend to like to create balanced corps, spreading out any elite units amongst my corps for flexibility and so that they all have a bit of backbone. As a Union player, i try to have a supply wagon per division, but that might be overkill... My corps tend to have 2 or 3 free cav battalions for local scouting, but I also like to have one pure cavalry corps (cav divisions with horse arty) to help encircle. I tend to forget about hospital, hq and signal corps units, and the RR brigades that pop up every now and again... I have no idea what to do with them.
Last thing, Fleets. I'm way out of my element on these. My first instinct is to focus on steam frigs, ironclads, iron frigs, and blockade squadrons, but I'm starting to think I should pay much more attention to the lowly brig for setting up an effective brown water blockade. How often to people take fleets into the Charles River or Mobile Bay to set up a blockade before taking the forts, and what kind of force do you put together to do it?
pgr wrote:I tend to forget about hospital, hq and signal corps units, and the RR brigades that pop up every now and again... I have no idea what to do with them.?
http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?33630-Support-Units
"Thank God. I thought it was a New York Regiment."- Unknown Confederate major, upon learning he had surrendered to the 6th Wisconsin.
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ArmChairGeneral
- AGEod Grognard
- Posts: 997
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:00 am
- Location: Austin, TX, USA
I pretty much restrict myself to HQ and pontoons. HQ give +2 CPs, a cohesion recovery bonus, and 1 exp/turn to each element in the stack. Expensive up front but VERY worth the money. The cohesion bonus obviously helps in recovering from combat, but also preserves fighting effectiveness for troops on the march. I do not completely understand the mechanics behind the phenomenon, but stacks with HQ in them seem to upgrade elements more often (from conscripts to regulars); I think experience level modifies the upgrade roll, since training masters like Hardee and Bragg see a lot of upgrades in their stacks as well. Pontoons halve the movement cost for crossing rivers and provide the same siege bonus as siege artillery. Crossing major rivers takes many days, and cohesion falls on each of those days. Reducing the crossing time preserves cohesion, so the force arrives in better condition and more able to fight effectively. The cohesion lost during offensive river crossings seems to me to be just as (if not more) important to the outcome of a battle than the one-round amphibious penalty.
With this in mind, my HQ always go to the front line Corps or Armies where they do the most good. Even in the case of static fronts, HQ's slowly increase the power of the stacks they are in, helping me maintain in-field parity with fewer purchased troops. Pontooneers go wherever I am most likely to need them; Northern VA and the Mississippi river are obvious candidates. I don't completely understand the rules behind MTSG, but as far as I know it is affected by the time it takes to move to the region, so pontoons would theoretically help Corps and Armies support each other across rivers. I find signal corps and balloons useful in places where I will need to operate independent 1* divisions like the Gulf and Atlantic coast quick reaction forces or major garrisons like Donnelson and Memphis, but I usually can't spare the resources. Their CP bonus in a Corps or Army is of marginal benefit since it takes a while to build enough troops to max out a corps anyway (same with HQs, but their other benefits still dictate they go in large stacks).
How do you use your cav corps/divisions? I have tried to use them for encircling, and they do a good job blocking retreaters from entering their region, but they take heavy casualties against even low cohesion unsupplied regulars when I try follow up attacks up with them. If I have some infantry as meat shields mixed in they work a lot better in this role, but then the stack isn't very mobile.
With this in mind, my HQ always go to the front line Corps or Armies where they do the most good. Even in the case of static fronts, HQ's slowly increase the power of the stacks they are in, helping me maintain in-field parity with fewer purchased troops. Pontooneers go wherever I am most likely to need them; Northern VA and the Mississippi river are obvious candidates. I don't completely understand the rules behind MTSG, but as far as I know it is affected by the time it takes to move to the region, so pontoons would theoretically help Corps and Armies support each other across rivers. I find signal corps and balloons useful in places where I will need to operate independent 1* divisions like the Gulf and Atlantic coast quick reaction forces or major garrisons like Donnelson and Memphis, but I usually can't spare the resources. Their CP bonus in a Corps or Army is of marginal benefit since it takes a while to build enough troops to max out a corps anyway (same with HQs, but their other benefits still dictate they go in large stacks).
How do you use your cav corps/divisions? I have tried to use them for encircling, and they do a good job blocking retreaters from entering their region, but they take heavy casualties against even low cohesion unsupplied regulars when I try follow up attacks up with them. If I have some infantry as meat shields mixed in they work a lot better in this role, but then the stack isn't very mobile.
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GraniteStater
- AGEod Guard of Honor
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- Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:16 am
- Location: Annapolis, MD - What?
A brief set of remarks:
* HQ Support frees up Med & Sig for the Corps, where they belong, really. Training at Hq Supp is a very nice feature. Love these guys.
* Med - Eng - Sig - Pontoon, in that order of priorities, for me. Don't forget Supplies, either. Remember, they help in battle, if nothing else. Med - recover more quickly, stop the bleeding; Eng - dig in faster; Sig - a nice to have for the better Leaders. Pontoons are great to have, what a nice unit. Another Balloon or two ain't bad, but kind of a luxury.
That's my view.
* HQ Support frees up Med & Sig for the Corps, where they belong, really. Training at Hq Supp is a very nice feature. Love these guys.
* Med - Eng - Sig - Pontoon, in that order of priorities, for me. Don't forget Supplies, either. Remember, they help in battle, if nothing else. Med - recover more quickly, stop the bleeding; Eng - dig in faster; Sig - a nice to have for the better Leaders. Pontoons are great to have, what a nice unit. Another Balloon or two ain't bad, but kind of a luxury.
That's my view.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
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GraniteStater
- AGEod Guard of Honor
- Posts: 1778
- Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:16 am
- Location: Annapolis, MD - What?
How do you use your cav corps/divisions? I have tried to use them for encircling, and they do a good job blocking retreaters from entering their region, but they take heavy casualties against even low cohesion unsupplied regulars when I try follow up attacks up with them. If I have some infantry as meat shields mixed in they work a lot better in this role, but then the stack isn't very mobile.
My biggest tactical failing has been realizing it's 1861, not 1941. Cav are not tanks. Cavalry are not tanks. 'Blizkriegs' are not really applicable, except in a mid/late game situation where you can 'pull a Wilson', a la spring of '65 in 'Bammy.
Using them as back door retreat deniers is a good idea, but you are starting to see the downside. Small Cav stacks, especially without H/A can be very vulnerable. Good Cav Leaders can help, along with the H/A, but they, are, after all, meant for screening and scouting. Four regiments of Cav can get vaporized in a single Turn before you can click your mouse.
I almost always have them on Green/Green for recon & screening. Remember, that lovely speed disappears if they are engaged heavily and have to retreat - what was a six day jaunt is now a 24 day death march.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
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ArmChairGeneral
- AGEod Grognard
- Posts: 997
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:00 am
- Location: Austin, TX, USA
GraniteStater:
How do you figure that Sig belong in corps? Corps have a lot of CPs already and the Div commanders bring in even more. How does two extra CP help out a corps much compared to the benefits gained by putting them with an independent division where a single 1* leader can then wield 400+ power with no command penalty? Do they affect activation or something? Maybe my perspective would be different if I played as the USA; it's all I can do to max out a corps in the first place, much less worry about being able to make them bigger.
Interesting thought putting Sigs and balloons with the better leaders. Makes sense, but I have always used them to "fix" under-performers (I always give Bragg the free balloon).
How do you figure that Sig belong in corps? Corps have a lot of CPs already and the Div commanders bring in even more. How does two extra CP help out a corps much compared to the benefits gained by putting them with an independent division where a single 1* leader can then wield 400+ power with no command penalty? Do they affect activation or something? Maybe my perspective would be different if I played as the USA; it's all I can do to max out a corps in the first place, much less worry about being able to make them bigger.
Interesting thought putting Sigs and balloons with the better leaders. Makes sense, but I have always used them to "fix" under-performers (I always give Bragg the free balloon).
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GraniteStater
- AGEod Guard of Honor
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Habit, mostly, more for the Traits bump than CP issues.
One can make Good Leaders better or shore up the mezza-mezza ones. Your call.
My typical Full Union Corps in CW2:
2**/* Div/""/""/extra Leader (death insurance)/Cav Rgmt/Cav Rgmt/20 lb/20 lb/Med/Eng/Sig/Pont/Supply/Supply.
Ideally with no CP penalty, natch.
Sometime, four Divisions. Sharpshooters. Morale Brigades. 3 - 4 popguns or better in a Div. One Light Inf in a Div, mostly early war.
One can make Good Leaders better or shore up the mezza-mezza ones. Your call.
My typical Full Union Corps in CW2:
2**/* Div/""/""/extra Leader (death insurance)/Cav Rgmt/Cav Rgmt/20 lb/20 lb/Med/Eng/Sig/Pont/Supply/Supply.
Ideally with no CP penalty, natch.
Sometime, four Divisions. Sharpshooters. Morale Brigades. 3 - 4 popguns or better in a Div. One Light Inf in a Div, mostly early war.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
ArmChairGeneral wrote:How do you use your cav corps/divisions? I have tried to use them for encircling, and they do a good job blocking retreaters from entering their region, but they take heavy casualties against even low cohesion unsupplied regulars when I try follow up attacks up with them. If I have some infantry as meat shields mixed in they work a lot better in this role, but then the stack isn't very mobile.
[Quote=Pocus]Cavalry Usage:
a) a big force (i.e CP usage more than one provided by a 3 star) gets a 1 penalty to hide value, except if you have at least 4 cavalries.
b) each cavalry reduces slightly the losses you take when routing or retreating
c) cavalry has a big patrol and big evasion value, meaning it fixes the enemy better or allows your stack to retreat more easily when there is an enemy/fort in the same region. [/Quote]
[Quote=1.03 Patch Notes]
Combat Power and the 3 gauges (hits, cohesion, Supply) only appear on enemy counters if there is at least 2 extra detection points toward the enemy stack.[/quote]
If you combine Point A with the Patch Notes, that is a huge increase in the importance of cavalry in screening and detecting enemy stacks. I favor moving my cavalry divisions between my corps as needed, usually attaching them to the corps I want or expect to do the most fighting, and putting them into independent stacks when I want to try a raid. Being used this way they're not going to contribute a lot of combat power directly, but they offer some excellent support services. And until Forrest and Sheridan started figuring out other uses, cavalry were more or less support units for most of the war.
I have found cavalry useful in the first couple turns to help grab MC over certain areas, which can cut supply flows and slow down future enemy advances. The downside to this is the fact that cavalry replacements are expensive, and you are (especially playing as the Union) bound to run into something that hits harder.
"Thank God. I thought it was a New York Regiment."- Unknown Confederate major, upon learning he had surrendered to the 6th Wisconsin.
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ArmChairGeneral
- AGEod Grognard
- Posts: 997
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:00 am
- Location: Austin, TX, USA
I'm talking about div or corp sized cav stacks of 10+ elements supported by horse artillery. In AACW I would keep a div or corps under Forrest or Stuart and use them to mop-up weakened and unsupplied enemy stacks put on the run by my heavier troops. I could often finish off several elements this way and milk VPs and sometimes NM from already-beaten enemies without too many losses on my side, turning minor victories into crushing blows. Now I find these types of combats rarely inflict the losses I am looking for even against unsupplied, low-cohesion, passive posture forces and I take a lot of hits in return. I am totally fine with this as a realistic result, but I just don't see the sense in large cav formations in battle anymore, I just end up having to buy a ton of cav replacements. In VA of course, a scouting force needs to be big just to survive contact, but no matter the size and organization I still only use these stacks as scouts.
OFF TOPIC-
Is Green/Green better than Blue/Green for scouts? On the one hand G/G is more likely to avoid combat in the first place, but if they ARE found, then with B/G they will take fewer casualties while still attempting to disengage early. Is there an evasion or hide benefit to being G/G that I am missing?
OFF TOPIC-
Is Green/Green better than Blue/Green for scouts? On the one hand G/G is more likely to avoid combat in the first place, but if they ARE found, then with B/G they will take fewer casualties while still attempting to disengage early. Is there an evasion or hide benefit to being G/G that I am missing?
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GraniteStater
- AGEod Guard of Honor
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- Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:16 am
- Location: Annapolis, MD - What?
Bigger Cav stacks are a different case, of course, especially a 300 PWR one under Forrest or Sheridan, etc. I assume some H/A.
G/G vs B/G? You pays yer money & takes yer chances, I would say.
The first time I played PbeM, at all, was against one the very best opponents here - Pat "Stonewall" Cleburne (hope he shows again - and where is Longshanks?).
He wrote me that I was, by far and away, the most aggressive Union player he had seen. And then took me to school. Later, he said, if I could have a Trait, it should be 'Reckless'.
After much consideration, I think that tactically, AACW/CW2 is much more like chess than any other analog. The basic way to handle multi-Region defensive positions is to 'hit 'em at the end' - but one can encounter terrain difficulties with this, because now we're talking about positions that can encompass four or five Regions in length - and defend your own position against a counterattack while you try to flank Jackson, Longstret & Co along F-burg/C-ville. Not the easiest thing to do - MTSG can occurr more than once in a Turn. The approaches to Memphis/Corinth are good for D, too. River crossings can be dreadful.
The best approaches integrate National Strategy and Army Tactics in an effective meld.
G/G vs B/G? You pays yer money & takes yer chances, I would say.
The first time I played PbeM, at all, was against one the very best opponents here - Pat "Stonewall" Cleburne (hope he shows again - and where is Longshanks?).
He wrote me that I was, by far and away, the most aggressive Union player he had seen. And then took me to school. Later, he said, if I could have a Trait, it should be 'Reckless'.
After much consideration, I think that tactically, AACW/CW2 is much more like chess than any other analog. The basic way to handle multi-Region defensive positions is to 'hit 'em at the end' - but one can encounter terrain difficulties with this, because now we're talking about positions that can encompass four or five Regions in length - and defend your own position against a counterattack while you try to flank Jackson, Longstret & Co along F-burg/C-ville. Not the easiest thing to do - MTSG can occurr more than once in a Turn. The approaches to Memphis/Corinth are good for D, too. River crossings can be dreadful.
The best approaches integrate National Strategy and Army Tactics in an effective meld.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
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ArmChairGeneral
- AGEod Grognard
- Posts: 997
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:00 am
- Location: Austin, TX, USA
ArmChairGeneral wrote:After all that about dedicated cav divs being weak, I find that a div with 5+ cav elements IN ADDITION to infantry and artillery does exactly what I am looking for in terms of mop-ups
It would be interesting to see what kind of bang for your buck the mounted infantry brigades give you.
"Thank God. I thought it was a New York Regiment."- Unknown Confederate major, upon learning he had surrendered to the 6th Wisconsin.
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GraniteStater
- AGEod Guard of Honor
- Posts: 1778
- Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:16 am
- Location: Annapolis, MD - What?
A single stack? 5 Cav/Inf/Arty? I'd say you are, in effect, building a weak 'Inf' stack - hasn't got the speed and not as powerful as a true Inf stack - or am I misunderstanding?
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
-
GraniteStater
- AGEod Guard of Honor
- Posts: 1778
- Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:16 am
- Location: Annapolis, MD - What?
Keeler wrote:It would be interesting to see what kind of bang for your buck the mounted infantry brigades give you.
Haven't examined in detail. Food for thought.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
-Daniel Webster
[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898
RULES
(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.
-
ArmChairGeneral
- AGEod Grognard
- Posts: 997
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:00 am
- Location: Austin, TX, USA
It's all about the pursuit. Their low cohesion, low supply units who have already suffered hits will break easily, but cav do not pack a punch, only 1/7 damage at range (CSA Early) and poor performance in assault phase. I will probably "win" this type of fight even with all cav if I bring enough, but I will take heavy losses, fail to rout any elements, and probably have several of my own flee. OTOH, with some 10 pounders (we have to be on offense anyway) and five or six infantry or sharpshooter along with the cav we are in business! The guns inflict casualties at range, the infantry will absorb hits and stand strong in assault, few if any of my elements will rout, many of theirs will, and all those cav elements will make pursuit checks and catch and destroy the cowards as they flee. Bringing roughly even manpower I expect a big victory, but even outnumbered up to 2:1 I still expect to hurt them a lot worse than they hurt me. (Count actual elements for this; don't trust a really low power number, it often underestimates weakened forces. I look in the battle log and count up the elements from the earlier combat).
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ArmChairGeneral
- AGEod Grognard
- Posts: 997
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:00 am
- Location: Austin, TX, USA
Yes, it is a specialist div that I use to mop up after battles once I can afford to put one together (I like 3-4 10lbers). It is slow since it has artillery (so I go ahead and give it a wagon too if I can) but it's not as slow as a bouncy! Using all cav/HA divs does not work for this, you take too much damage and don't always get pursuit.
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ArmChairGeneral
- AGEod Grognard
- Posts: 997
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:00 am
- Location: Austin, TX, USA
Keeler,
Mtd Inf use the militia model (from what I can tell) but with a 150 speed coefficient. Otherwise they are pretty much the same as a joined volunteer unit, but cost a whopping three command points vs one one point for a two element volunteer, and have 4 detection rather than a militia's three. They can capture cities like infantry, and cannot pursue like cav. I like to put them into Divisions when I have them because of the CPs, but don't build a lot because I go scorched earth in the FW and Rangers and Cav are better in that role. The one the CSA starts with in MO I keep in the cav stack as a meat shield like above for chasing down strays north of Springfield. They are good in stockade warfare; it's hard to bring enough force to kick out two entrenched militia plus an autogarrison in the Far West or Great Plains. Unlike militia a Mtd Cav can actually get to an important stockade without starving on the way there. They are rarely strong enough on their own to defeat an autogarrison, but a Ranger (0 CP cost) added on will usually do the trick. I can't remember exactly, but I think they cost the same $ as 2 militia but a few more WS.
Edit:
Sorry Keeler, misread your post and answered something you weren't asking. In MO and the FW I use them just like you say, in a cav division to provide some extra punch when in a cleanup role. Same idea as above, but without regular infantry slowing them down I have caught a lot of the stray militia and cavalry that Athena always has wandering around MO.
Mtd Inf use the militia model (from what I can tell) but with a 150 speed coefficient. Otherwise they are pretty much the same as a joined volunteer unit, but cost a whopping three command points vs one one point for a two element volunteer, and have 4 detection rather than a militia's three. They can capture cities like infantry, and cannot pursue like cav. I like to put them into Divisions when I have them because of the CPs, but don't build a lot because I go scorched earth in the FW and Rangers and Cav are better in that role. The one the CSA starts with in MO I keep in the cav stack as a meat shield like above for chasing down strays north of Springfield. They are good in stockade warfare; it's hard to bring enough force to kick out two entrenched militia plus an autogarrison in the Far West or Great Plains. Unlike militia a Mtd Cav can actually get to an important stockade without starving on the way there. They are rarely strong enough on their own to defeat an autogarrison, but a Ranger (0 CP cost) added on will usually do the trick. I can't remember exactly, but I think they cost the same $ as 2 militia but a few more WS.
Edit:
Sorry Keeler, misread your post and answered something you weren't asking. In MO and the FW I use them just like you say, in a cav division to provide some extra punch when in a cleanup role. Same idea as above, but without regular infantry slowing them down I have caught a lot of the stray militia and cavalry that Athena always has wandering around MO.
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