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lukasberger
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Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:20 pm

steelwarrior77 wrote:As do I - so the treaty of London has no place in game but IRL and I plan to be honorable and peaceful as well - but need a in game backup and that is where we discuss in circles - if you blame France of ill intentions (and there is no reason to do that) a small country like Belgium would hardly make a difference against a CP alliance. So again whats the point - you quote RL to blame me and France but do not want to see RL history how neutrality played out for Belgium. Thats propaganda - that I will keep on ignoring. In game my colonial interests were not respected - which should change now. And if the CPs do not have aggressive expansionist intentions, then neither me nor France are a threat, as we do not plan to attack the CPs either - Belgium in general does plan a colonial game not a European expansion.


The difference is that one case of real life is part of the historical background of the game, it's already happened, and is part of our game, like it or not while the other is far, far into the future of our game and not part of the record at all. The Treaty of London certainly does have a place in game.

If we were starting in 1920, the action of Germany and Austria in 1914 would have a place in game just as the treaty of London does now. We're not starting in 1920 though, so they don't.

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Field Marshal Hotzendorf
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Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:23 pm

It saddens the Kingdom of the Netherlands greatly to see the Kingdom of Belgium and the Kingdom of Prussia begin to destroy their good relations so quickly. I suggest that we hear from The British Empire and the French Republic immediately to try to mediate this situation before it gets completely out of hand.

- King William III

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lukasberger
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Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:29 pm

steelwarrior77 wrote:In game my colonial interests were not respected - which should change now.


Where has Prussia not respected Belgium's colonial interests? We've not played any colonial actions in areas where Belgium had an existing SOI of any reasonable level. We specifically stayed away from colonising the Congo or any Belgian SOI areas. You chose to oppose Prussian colonial actions in the un-controlled area of Nigeria, which is fair game for any power. We have no problems with that and would simply have allowed nature (in-game mechanics) to take its course here, but this was not a previously existing Belgian SOI that was somehow disrespected by Prussia.

steelwarrior77
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Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:36 pm

lukasberger wrote:Where has Prussia not respected Belgium's colonial interests? We've not played any colonial actions in area's where Belgium had an existing SOI of any reasonable level. We specifically stayed away from colonising the Congo or any Belgian SOI areas. You chose to oppose Prussian colonial actions in the un-controlled area of Nigeria, which is fair game for any power. We have no problems with that and would simply have allowed nature (in-game mechanics) to take its course here, but this was not a previously existing Belgian SOI that was somehow disrespected by Prussia.


How could a small country like Belgium ever be in concurrence with a big country like Prussia - there is a in game dynamic of crisis to solve conflicts in these cases- where Prussia could go the war path, while Belgium without back up, will have to retreat each single time - only a backup changes that - thats why it is good for a fair fight for colonial interests to have such a back up. So now its fair that both sides should be motivated to avoid war ;-D
Belgium needs its colonial expansion as it is tiny small - just like the Netherlands...
Again getting kinda tired of one sided propaganda that uses arguments again and again in a one sided manner. So end of discussion for me again. If Prussia wants to be mad with Belgium ok - I offered even though allied with France in future, to have good relations - if that is not wanted fine and instead conspiracy theories are invented again and again fine also ;-D

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lukasberger
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Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:45 pm

steelwarrior77 wrote:Again getting kinda tired of one sided propaganda that uses arguments again and again in a one sided manner. So end of discussion for me again. If Prussia wants to be mad with Belgium ok - I offered even though allied with France in future, to have good relations - if that is not wanted fine and instead conspiracy theories are invented again and again fine also ;-D


The problem with this, is that if Belgium is allied with France, it's no longer solely in your power to determine whether you have good relations with Prussia, or with Britain, or with Russia or with any nation other than France. It's in France's power as Belgium is clearly the junior partner in a Franco-Belgian alliance.

If France wants to declare war against Prussia, you'd have to acquiesce, or else tear up your treaty with them.

It's not a conspiracy theory that this action directly threatens the safety of Prussia, which is currently in a very vulnerable situation in-game, it's simply a fact.

At this point Prussia would agree however that further discussions between us and Belgium are likely a waste of time. We'll wait for France and the other major powers to clarify their thoughts on the matter before discussing this further.

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Field Marshal Hotzendorf
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Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:52 pm

The Netherlands agree that both Belgium and Prussia are at a stalemate and it is the tradition and frankly the duty for the Great Powers to intervene here and come to a conclusion. Where are the British, French and Russians on this??

- The Government of the Netherlands

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Vezina
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Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:54 pm

France will make a statement shortly and will then work tirelessly to defuse this situation.

OOC: At work. Have patience with me, please.

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Field Marshal Hotzendorf
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Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:56 pm

Vezina wrote:France will make a statement shortly and will then work tirelessly to defuse this situation.

OOC: At work. Have patience with me, please.


OOC: Totally understand, take your time

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lukasberger
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Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:57 pm

Vezina wrote:France will make a statement shortly and will then work tirelessly to defuse this situation.

OOC: At work. Have patience with me, please.


OOC: No worries, you can take a week if you need :) I have no doubt we can defuse the situation given time.

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bjfagan
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Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:42 pm

OOC: Woke up with a flurry of emails and forum posts. Gym and now at work. I too will try to get involved as GB. One word of advice to Steelwarrior77... please remember to keep things out of character (OOC) and in character as Belgium obviously separate. As stated by Lukasberger you raised several points (eg the WWI Central Powers alliance as a reason for Belgium to need an alliance with France) that are far into the future and cannot therefore be used or considered in our game which is taking place in 1850. Please remember to consider what had taken place up to our game time frame in the real world and use that as in game justification, unless something changed in game that trumps the real world historical reality.

steelwarrior77
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Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:08 pm

Ok - but I also do not want to be bound to an OOC Treaty of London then ;-D

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bjfagan
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Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:13 pm

steelwarrior77 wrote:Ok - but I also do not want to be bound to an OOC Treaty of London then ;-D


OOC: The Treaty Of London was established in reality before we started our game. So you start bound to it, but in game feel free to break it... however there may be consequences.

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bjfagan
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Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:20 pm

The British Government is very concerned over a reported alliance between France and Belgium that may affect the balance of power established in Europe to preserve peace. The ambassadors of each respective country have been called to the Foreign Office, in Whitehall, to explain this alleged alliance.

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Vezina
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Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:04 am

Statement from the Foreign Ministry of the Second Republic of France

First and foremost, France wishes to assure all of the great and honorable nations of the world that our involvement in the diplomatic discourse in question was entirely meant with no ill will at all. The discussions between Brussels and Paris have consisted of commercial cooperation, colonial affairs, and, yes, protection for our smaller neighbor; a neighbor that France shares close cultural and historical ties with, and a neighbor who does not feel entirely secure in the guarantees implied in the Treaty of London as signed by the powers of the Concert of Europe. Note that we use the word "implied" quite clearly, as it is never stated explicitly that any protection is to be afforded. Thus, we were willing to pledge to protect Belgium in a future time of need when we were approached. However, it is not the intention of the Second Republic to offend the powers of Europe in this matter and would like to work on a compromise between Belgium and the Concert of Europe. We would ask a short period to confer with King Leopold's government before presenting our thoughts.

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Lynxyonok
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Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:02 am

Proposed Signing of the Second Treaty of Nanking

Your Imperial Majesties and Your Presidential Excellencies,

It has been several years since the first Treaty of Nanking, Treaty of the Bogue, Treaty of Wanghia, and Treaty of Whampoa. These treaties have established many premises of European-Chinese and American-Chinese relations, but they have not addressed the question of foreign ownership of any production facilities in China, a question that has been raised many a time in the recent months.

To avoid hostilities and to continue our mutual prosperity the Emperor of China is willing to discuss the terms of such transactions on October 1, 1850 in the city of Nanking on the following terms:

- all countries are welcome to the negotiating table, even those that have not signed the aforementioned treaties
- only lots at the five treaty ports are to be discussed at this meeting, specifically:
----- Canton (1 rice, 2 tea)
----- Xiamen (1 tea)
----- Fuzhou (2 tea, 1 fish)
----- Ningbo (1 tea)
----- Shanghai (2 silk, 1 tea, 2 rice)
- Once all lots in a location are sold, regardless of the buyer, provinces surrounding that specific location are available to bid on at the next treaty signing (April 1851)
- the minimum bid to purchase a lot is a railroad in the province of purchase or, if a railroad is already present, a railroad in an adjacent province.
- the bids can be further augmented by promise of money
- the bids can be closed (private communication to China) or open (posted here), choice is yours
- highest bids for each lot will win on October 1, 1850
- once won, bids have to be followed by construction on the lot and construction of the railroad within 6 months, otherwise bids are considered null and void

Xianfeng the Ninth

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Lynxyonok
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Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:50 pm

P.S. To clarify - each lot is treated as a separate business deal. E.g., Canton = 3 lots.

On the other hand to promote bulk purchases every 3rd lot is free of charge.

The 6-month building limit is relaxed in case of multiple purchases so that only the first railroad and production site have to be started on within those 6 months. All other railroads and construction projects have to start within 2 years.

steelwarrior77
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Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:39 am

Dear Majesties,

after much consultation we decided to step back from the alliance with France. We hope in future also our interests will be taken into account - not just the ones of the greater powers and we hope the protection of Belgium will really work, when needed.

King Leopold I

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Field Marshal Hotzendorf
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Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:57 pm

The Netherlands fully understands Belgium's position and concerns and hopes that the great powers will always respect her independence.

- King William III

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Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:02 pm

We are happy about the very supportive attitude of the Netherland and hope for a prosperous future together ;-D

King Leopold I

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bjfagan
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Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:09 pm

Great Britain is gratified to see Belgium make a reasonable and responsible decision to hold off on any alliances. Her Majesty's Government reaffirms its commitment to maintain the integrity and safety of an independent Belgium, in concert with the other signatory countries to the Treaty of London.

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coolbean
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Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:48 pm

J.H. Colton Company
New York, USA

[HR][/HR]

[CENTER]THE WORLD IN 1850

[ATTACH]37230[/ATTACH][/CENTER]

The official J.H. Colton Company World Atlas has finally been released! The Atlas is accurate to January 1850.

NOTES:
-Areas marked in black are available colonial regions not currently claimed as puppet, protectorate, colony, or dominion by a great power.
-Colored regions show political divisions of any independent power and their puppets, protectorates, colonies, or dominions in the same color.
-Apologies for the poor quality of the picture, it had to be resized and it is butchered during the upload process.
-I am working on finding a different shade of blue for France, because after being uploaded it looks too similar to the ocean.


J.H. Colton Company
"Fulfilling all of your cartographic and map-making needs, since 1831."
New York, USA
Attachments
Redux - 1850.01 - png.jpg
"Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting... but never hit soft."
- Theodore Roosevelt

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Field Marshal Hotzendorf
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Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:16 am

The Kingdom of The Netherlands wants to make known to the civilized world community that we have started to take over the customs of the Government of Venezuela. They are an unorganized nation which will do better with our guidance. We want to assure the world nations that we are in no way starting a policy in Venezuela of colonization and we are no threat to their sovereignty.

- The Government of The Netherlands

steelwarrior77
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Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:25 am

We are sure, that Venezuela will do better under your wise guidance.

King Leopold I

OOC - what does taking over their custom exactly do with a nation like Venezuela?

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lukasberger
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Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:09 am

steelwarrior77 wrote:We are sure, that Venezuela will do better under your wise guidance.

King Leopold I

OOC - whta does taking over their custom exactly do with a nation like Venezuela?


It makes some money and maybe a bit of prestige for the nation that takes over the customs. I forget exactly how much since Prussia doesn't yet have that option available.

steelwarrior77
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Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:47 am

Thanks - what is necessary to take over the custom of a country?

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lukasberger
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Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:01 am

steelwarrior77 wrote:Thanks - what is necessary to take over the custom of a country?


You just have to have the decision available and play it on the country's capital. That may not be possible if someone else has taken over the customs for that nation, but in any other case it should work out just fine.

steelwarrior77
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Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:50 pm

Thanks again ;-D

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Lynxyonok
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Sat Jan 30, 2016 6:57 pm

Proposed Signing of the Second Treaty of Nanking - Cancelled

Your Imperial Majesties and Your Presidential Excellencies,

Due to lower interest in Chinese investments than expected, signing of the Second Treaty of Nanking is hereby cancelled.

We are open to re-opening the matter in the future however.

Xianfeng the Ninth

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De_Spinoza
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Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:05 pm

bjfagan wrote:Great Britain is gratified to see Belgium make a reasonable and responsible decision to hold off on any alliances. Her Majesty's Government reaffirms its commitment to maintain the integrity and safety of an independent Belgium, in concert with the other signatory countries to the Treaty of London.


Austria shares the British sentiment and also reaffirms its commitment to protect the independence of Belgium.
Fiat iustitia Image Pereat mundus

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De_Spinoza
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Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:19 pm

Lynxyonok wrote:Proposed Signing of the Second Treaty of Nanking - Cancelled

Your Imperial Majesties and Your Presidential Excellencies,

Due to lower interest in Chinese investments than expected, signing of the Second Treaty of Nanking is hereby cancelled.

We are open to re-opening the matter in the future however.

Xianfeng the Ninth


Austria would like to remind China that a late deadline might still allow international interest to grow. Austria was certainly considering placing several bids.
Fiat iustitia Image Pereat mundus

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