General Player to Player Comments

[De_Spinoza]

I'll be in Poland from 8 - 18 July, so I won't be able to put turns in for France during that period. Anyone interested in temporarily taking over to keep the economy in check every 2-3 turns or so?

[Jonathan Pollard]

I hereby ask for official moderation for resolution of the Colombian goldmine situation. Citizen X has already been publicly admonished against what appeared to potentially be against the rule of playing countries independently, see the bottom of post #805 in the following thread:

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?28298-PON-Conflict-in-Europe-General-Thread/page27

I doubt that allowing the Ottomans to build a goldmine in Colombia benefits Colombia as much as the Ottomans, especially since the Colombians undoubtedly had unused goldmines in their build pool. I think Colombia would have been far better off had it built a goldmine there itself.

[Citizen X]

I hereby ask for official moderation for resolution of the Colombian goldmine situation.

My god, if we need moderation for such a case that is both, clear and petty at the same time, how will it be going on. I am growing tired of having such a stupid quarrel about every inch in the game. But anyway.

[Citizen X]

I hereby ask for official moderation for resolution of the Colombian goldmine situation. Citizen X has already been publicly admonished against what appeared to potentially be against the rule of playing countries independently, see the bottom of post #805 in the following thread:

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?28298-PON-Conflict-in-Europe-General-Thread/page27

I doubt that allowing the Ottomans to build a goldmine in Colombia benefits Colombia as much as the Ottomans, especially since the Colombians undoubtedly had unused goldmines in their build pool. I think Colombia would have been far better off had it build a goldmine there itself.

Someone move this to the player to player discussion, as this is not excactly diplomatic roleplay, as I had initiated it.

There had been a goldmine there which got deleted for the sole purpose to have the Ottomans build one there, in exchange for three woolmines in Anatolia (already built, before this had gone to Redux), in order to start an own independant clothes industry.


There is nothing there under the specified adress that is of concern for this discussion. The only one who EVER said anything against how I ruled my countries was Kensai after I initiated right of passage and commercial agrrement between Colombia and Ottomans, stating that I need an individual benefitial reason for both countries for such agreements wich I followed then and now. Other than that I even got encouraged to play Egypt and the Ottomans contemplorary, against wich none objected. Everything has always been entirely in public. Jonathan never commented or objected in any of these cases.

Seems to me that everytime I make a good (and absolutly legit) move, someone starts to yell "fraud". That's bad style.

[Sir Garnet]

I was expecting the coal and gold to be built out by Colombia in human hands. Every substantial nation has enough of a pool to cover a few resource sites.

Something for Jim to do, then. Moving to General.

[Sir Garnet]

I'll be in Poland from 8 - 18 July, so I won't be able to put turns in for France during that period. Anyone interested in temporarily taking over to keep the economy in check every 2-3 turns or so?

Out of email contact for diplomacy/emergencies as well?

Specific instructions to the viceroy/regent would be desirable.

I already have a lot of AGEOD on my plate.

[De_Spinoza]

Out of email contact for diplomacy/emergencies as well?

Specific instructions to the viceroy/regent would be desirable.

I already have a lot of AGEOD on my plate.

I'd give the volunteer regent instructions by PM (if I get a reply before leaving tomorrow morning, that is), which would include some guidelines on what to do in diplomatic emergencies, although active diplomacy is not required. As stated I just need someone to keep an eye on the stockpiles and factories every few turns (so about three turns for my 10-day absence).

[Jonathan Pollard]

I'll be in Poland from 8 - 18 July, so I won't be able to put turns in for France during that period. Anyone interested in temporarily taking over to keep the economy in check every 2-3 turns or so?

I could volunteer to do that as long as you give me immunity from any accusations that I am deliberately running your economy in a manner that benefits China. I would promise to not do anything blatant like replacing French resource structures with Chinese ones.

[Jonathan Pollard]

Someone will need to process the next turn, since I will be unavailable.

Because you're the main host now, if there is a more convenient time for you to resolve the turn each day, feel free to ask for such a change.

[Boernes]

I have two things to request:

- Access to 'extended' colonial options for Sweden, so I can actually develop me two protectorates in Africa. Right now I cant raise it any further than 45% CP
- Transfer of the portugese Depot in Kigali to Sweden, with compensation of the building cost. Even though MC is at 100%, the structure hinders me to actually
gain full control of the region (you can see it at the map, the region is in full blue colour, but the borders still mark it as part of portugese Congo.


If no one has objections to this, I can prepare a script

[Citizen X]

I have two things to request:

- Access to 'extended' colonial options for Sweden, so I can actually develop me two protectorates in Africa. Right now I cant raise it any further than 45% CP
- Transfer of the portugese Depot in Kigali to Sweden, with compensation of the building cost. Even though MC is at 100%, the structure hinders me to actually
gain full control of the region (you can see it at the map, the region is in full blue colour, but the borders still mark it as part of portugese Congo.


If no one has objections to this, I can prepare a script

No objections.

[Jonathan Pollard]

fffffffcbbcc vv

I have two things to request:

- Access to 'extended' colonial options for Sweden, so I can actually develop me two protectorates in Africa. Right now I cant raise it any further than 45% CP
- Transfer of the portugese Depot in Kigali to Sweden, with compensation of the building cost. Even though MC is at 100%, the structure hinders me to actually
gain full control of the region (you can see it at the map, the region is in full blue colour, but the borders still mark it as part of portugese Congo.


If no one has objections to this, I can prepare a script

[Jonathan Pollard]

I have two things to request:

- Access to 'extended' colonial options for Sweden, so I can actually develop me two protectorates in Africa. Right now I cant raise it any further than 45% CP

The only way I would not object to this is if China also is given access to 'extended' colonial options. China likewise has difficulty raising CP past 45%.

[Sir Garnet]

I have two things to request:

- Access to 'extended' colonial options for Sweden, so I can actually develop me two protectorates in Africa. Right now I cant raise it any further than 45% CP
- Transfer of the portugese Depot in Kigali to Sweden, with compensation of the building cost. Even though MC is at 100%, the structure hinders me to actually
gain full control of the region (you can see it at the map, the region is in full blue colour, but the borders still mark it as part of portugese Congo.


If no one has objections to this, I can prepare a script

Changing the depot and MC Sweden was proposed by Portugal late last game year as part of its neutral policy. Sweden did not get round to it then

[glennbob]

Well, yet again, I cannot access the game tonight as I am yet to recieve the password for Austria from Lukas, slightly annoying.

[De_Spinoza]

Jonathan Pollard has kindly agreed to take over my nation during my holiday abroad, so France will be governed by him during my 11-day absence. I trust him wholeheartedly and wish him the best of luck!

[Jim-NC]

Someone move this to the player to player discussion, as this is not excactly diplomatic roleplay, as I had initiated it.

There had been a goldmine there which got deleted for the sole purpose to have the Ottomans build one there, in exchange for three woolmines in Anatolia (already built, before this had gone to Redux), in order to start an own independant clothes industry.


There is nothing there under the specified adress that is of concern for this discussion. The only one who EVER said anything against how I ruled my countries was Kensai after I initiated right of passage and commercial agrrement between Colombia and Ottomans, stating that I need an individual benefitial reason for both countries for such agreements wich I followed then and now. Other than that I even got encouraged to play Egypt and the Ottomans contemplorary, against wich none objected. Everything has always been entirely in public. Jonathan never commented or objected in any of these cases.

Seems to me that everytime I make a good (and absolutly legit) move, someone starts to yell "fraud". That's bad style.

Let me make sure I understand this.

Is there a request for moderation still?

It appears that Columbia traded a gold pit for 3 wool ranches. Columbia has already started construction of the wool mines, but the Ottoman Empire was late in building the gold pit. At the same turn (or nearly the same turn), China builds a gold pit in the same province of Columbia. The Gold pits are both in the region of Cali. The Columbian wool ranches are in Kilikya (town of Adana).

Jonathan Pollard, do you agree or disagree that 3 wool ranches are adequate compensation for 1 gold pit? Please let me know how you want to proceed.

[lukasberger]

Well, yet again, I cannot access the game tonight as I am yet to recieve the password for Austria from Lukas, slightly annoying.

Sent via email twice now. Check your inbox

[Citizen X]

Let me make sure I understand this.

Is there a request for moderation still?

It appears that Columbia traded a gold pit for 3 wool ranches. Columbia has already started construction of the wool mines, but the Ottoman Empire was late in building the gold pit. At the same turn (or nearly the same turn), China builds a gold pit in the same province of Columbia. The Gold pits are both in the region of Cali. The Columbian wool ranches are in Kilikya (town of Adana).

Jonathan Pollard, do you agree or disagree that 3 wool ranches are adequate compensation for 1 gold pit? Please let me know how you want to proceed.

Yes there is still the need for moderation.

I asked China IC to undo building the Cali gold mine as it is totally illegal because the Ottoman Empire owns the license there, wich I could absolutly display. Pollard immediatly drooped OOC, doubting the legitimacy of said license. I back it up amongst other things with the win-win situation that this deal means for both parties.

There are two possibilities.

A. The Ottoman license is legit:

Then
the Chinese mine gets deleted. Period.

B. The Ottoman license is not legit:

Then
the Ottoman mine gets deleted
the Colombian wool farms get deleted
the Chines mine gets deleted
Colombia gets back their gold mine in Cali


Either way, the Chinese mine stays illegal.

[Jonathan Pollard]

Let me make sure I understand this.

Is there a request for moderation still?

It appears that Columbia traded a gold pit for 3 wool ranches. Columbia has already started construction of the wool mines, but the Ottoman Empire was late in building the gold pit. At the same turn (or nearly the same turn), China builds a gold pit in the same province of Columbia. The Gold pits are both in the region of Cali. The Columbian wool ranches are in Kilikya (town of Adana).

Jonathan Pollard, do you agree or disagree that 3 wool ranches are adequate compensation for 1 gold pit? Please let me know how you want to proceed.

Yes there is still need for moderation because I disagree that 3 wool ranches are adequate compensation for 1 gold pit. The gold pit that I have building in Colombia shows a profit margin of +35. When I tried building wool ranches in Turkey, they each showed a deficit, -6. So clearly Citizen X deliberately engaged in a transaction that actually harms Colombia for the benefit of the Ottomans. This does not take into account the additional value of gold because of its convertibility to state funds.

[Sir Garnet]

My guess is a Solomonic decision will decide to unwind everything and Colombia keeps its mine.

It is nice to own one of those - as Portugal discovered, it's like having a gold mine!

[Citizen X]

Yes there is still need for moderation because I disagree that 3 wool ranches are adequate compensation for 1 gold pit. The gold pit that I have building in Colombia shows a profit margin of +35. When I tried building wool ranches in Turkey, they each showed a deficit, -6. So clearly Citizen X deliberately engaged in a transaction that actually harms Colombia for the benefit of the Ottomans. This does not take into account the additional value of gold because of its convertibility to state funds.

Not for pushing it but for the sake of the discussion:

That's a highly simplistic equation because it doesnt take into account that here commodities get exchanged that neither has on his own territory and the factor of comparison therefor is the price on the open market of both commodities at the time of the treaty. It neither takes into account that here a decision is made that garantuees independence of third party supply. It doesn't take into account the role of a rawmaterial (+ food in this case) in the chain of commodities and value, where the full impact gets clear by the time when valuable workforce goes into fabrication facilities instead of mines and other rawmaterial production, be the output of (almost) however value.
It doesn't take into account the interest of both parties to keep relations in the positive between each other and the respective allies. Peace is value, a simple truth that not everybody seems to figure.

I had indeed planned on getting an industrialized Colombia going instaed one relaible on food exportation and a few goldmines. I therefore planned on exchanging even more licenses with various countries (naturally starting with my own other country). I just didn't get to implement it because I was so occupied of getting Ottomans through a war and simply lacked the time to bring Colombia as far as I had planned.

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This brings me to the point where I gonna push it again and why I am quite unhappy with a "solomonic" decision. Since two months I am trying to get to play a game and just don't get to it, because all the time some kid tries to take cheap advantages on me and then immediatly drops OOC and yells for the sherif when it doesn't work out. I have been doing more keystrokes for this kind of crap than for actual roleplay and gaming and I am growing sick and tired of it.

That's why I proposed a rule of thumb on the conduct of gameplay rather then several sophisticated articles as rules.

[Sir Garnet]

That there is almost unlimited cotton/wool on the world market from very many countries due to the economy balancing should be considered.

[Citizen X]

That there is almost unlimited cotton/wool on the world market from very many countries due to the economy balancing should be considered.

For the time being true. Also true that I never really looked at it from the money gaining perspective. For me as Ottomans it wss simply another variaty in the luxury portfolio.

My thinking in that matter was somehow mercantilistic. Having no own ships whatsoever in the forcepool Colombia might easily get cut off from the free market. This is academic however because I didn't get to build the clothes factories there and I doubt that the AI will build them.

I am highly interested in your opinions what a "good" deal here would look like.

[Crixdaz]

Yes there is still the need for moderation.

I asked China IC to undo building the Cali gold mine as it is totally illegal because the Ottoman Empire owns the license there, wich I could absolutly display. Pollard immediatly drooped OOC, doubting the legitimacy of said license. I back it up amongst other things with the win-win situation that this deal means for both parties.

There are two possibilities.

A. The Ottoman license is legit:

Then
the Chinese mine gets deleted. Period.

B. The Ottoman license is not legit:

Then
the Ottoman mine gets deleted
the Colombian wool farms get deleted
the Chines mine gets deleted
Colombia gets back their gold mine in Cali


Either way, the Chinese mine stays illegal.

I can't understand how in the second option China loses his mine. If the Ottoman-Colombian agreement demonstrated break the rules benefit to the Ottomans, China should preserve his mine as he have a legit commercial agreement to build it.

[Boernes]

For the time being true. Also true that I never really looked at it from the money gaining perspective. For me as Ottomans it wss simply another variaty in the luxury portfolio.

My thinking in that matter was somehow mercantilistic. Having no own ships whatsoever in the forcepool Colombia might easily get cut off from the free market. This is academic however because I didn't get to build the clothes factories there and I doubt that the AI will build them.

I am highly interested in your opinions what a "good" deal here would look like.

If you have no merchant ships, you won't be able to gather the output from the wool farms. Just a commercial agreement isnt enough

[Citizen X]

If you have no merchant ships, you won't be able to gather the output from the wool farms. Just a commercial agreement isnt enough

If a nation that I have friendly relations and a commercial agreement with has ships in the appropriate seazone, it will work. And as licenses are normally mutual, the other nation (if it has ships) will put them there naturally. You can check that with the collection filter.

[Citizen X]

I can't understand how in the second option China loses his mine. If the Ottoman-Colombian agreement demonstrated break the rules benefit to the Ottomans, China should preserve his mine as he have a legit commercial agreement to build it.

As I said earlier, there had been a mine wich Colombia broke in good faith so that the Ottomans could build there. I was too lazy to script that a simple switch of ownership. In the very turn that this happened, that Chinese built there, too. No deal -> no gap -> no mine

[Crixdaz]

As I said earlier, there had been a mine wich Colombia broke in good faith so that the Ottomans could build there. I was too lazy to script that a simple switch of ownership. In the very turn that this happened, that Chinese built there, too. No deal -> no gap -> no mine

All right, this is only an unfortunate situation and there's no reason to believe a bad action of China. Now has to be determinated according to the rules if the mine should be Colombian or Ottoman and in both cases China should receive a compensation in order to recover his investment in the mine.

[Jim-NC]

The game engine does allow there to be more structures then resource availability. This happened in Central America, where there are farms that don't have resources to support.

I see 4 options -
1. Allow both gold pits to be built, as both should produce gold (I am going to have to check on this more tonight).
2. Return to original status, gold pit for Columbia, removal of Ottoman and Chinese gold pits, removal of Columbian wool farms. All countries losing sturctures would get their build costs back.
3. Removal of only Chinese gold pit, allowing Ottoman gold pit and Columbian wool farms. Al countries losing structures would get their build costs back.
4. Removal of Ottoman gold pit, allowing Chinese gold pit, and removal of Columbian wool farms. This option does not have merit, and thus I am not considering it.

I will decide between the other 3 options later today/tonight. I must do more checking of option 1, and may have to crunch some turns to see what happens.