numahr
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Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:22 pm

@ Bohémond: Yes I added value in ROE section.

So do you think yo can fix the .dfm file to make sure that the buttons for rounds 7 and 8 remain hidden if not used? That would be very much appreciated... :)

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Bohémond
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Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:09 pm

numahr wrote:@ Bohémond: Yes I added value in ROE section.

So do you think yo can fix the .dfm file to make sure that the buttons for rounds 7 and 8 remain hidden if not used? That would be very much appreciated... :)


Could you provide your ROE section, I do not find it in the downloaded file of your mod ?

Regards
Marco, perché vai così forte in salita?» «Per abbreviare la mia agonia.

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Bohémond
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Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:33 pm

I do not understand why Round 7 and 8 are displayed....

Ii should be ''blank' as for others rounds when not part of the battle.

I keep investigate it
Marco, perché vai così forte in salita?» «Per abbreviare la mia agonia.

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Bohémond
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Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:20 pm

Display bug for Round 7 and 8 are code related. Nothing I can do.

It should fixed with next patch/quickfix.

Thanks to Pocus for his help.

Regards
Marco, perché vai così forte in salita?» «Per abbreviare la mia agonia.

numahr
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Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:48 pm

Thanks all for support on this! In the meanwhile, we can live with it, it is clearly not a major annoyance...

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rominet
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Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:50 pm

Franciscus wrote:Can you post a save game, please, and the Scripts folder ?

Thanks



Sorry, i am new on AGEOD game.
Can you be more precise, which scripts folder?

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Franciscus
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Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:31 pm

rominet wrote:Sorry, i am new on AGEOD game.
Can you be more precise, which scripts folder?


Hi

You should have a folder named Scripts, inside of your HAN folder (i.e., HAN\Scripts). Simply zip ou rar it and post it, I will sort it out

Thanks
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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rominet
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Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:08 pm

Here it is.

About Timoukos, the same trouble appears in the scenario -218.
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Franciscus
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Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:08 am

Thank you

Indeed, you found a bug that went unnoticed until now. The engine is not finding your Timoukos because you decided to embed him (them) with legions and alaes. He (they) then become "invisible" for the script that is searching for his presence in-game !

I guess no one ever thought of joining a Massalia Timoukos with a legion !! :bonk: :blink:

We will fix this bug...even more because it can affect other scenarios !

Many thanks for reporting ! :hat:
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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rominet
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Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:48 am

Franciscus wrote:Thank you

Indeed, you found a bug that went unnoticed until now. The engine is not finding your Timoukos because you decided to embed him (them) with legions and alaes. He (they) then become "invisible" for the script that is searching for his presence in-game !

I guess no one ever thought of joining a Massalia Timoukos with a legion !! :bonk: :blink:

We will fix this bug...even more because it can affect other scenarios !

Many thanks for reporting ! :hat:


That seems totaly logical.

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rominet
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Sat Sep 27, 2014 8:01 am

Ok!!

Now, concerning the 0.2 PP version of your mod, i think i begin to understand the replacement system.

I explained it to a french player, so the french explanation is posted here at first with the English translation following;
i hope you will understand.


IN FRENCH:

D'abord, faut bien distinguer les "remplacements normaux" (F2) des "remplacements d'éléments détruits dans les unités", c'est 2 choses différentes.

Je parle d'abord des "remplacements normaux", c'est là où c'est le plus compliqué.

Premier point, les régions sans dépôt ont une capacité à envoyer des remplacements dans les unités quasi nulle, c'est juste bon pour reconstituer lentement (plusieurs tours
peuvent être nécessaires) des garnisons endommagées par des sièges ratés ou de la simple attrition.
Et en plus, il faut que la garnison soit à peu près seule, pas d'armées dans la province.

Maintenant, second point, il est capital: quand on veut recevoir des remplacements en nombre, il faut obligatoirement un dépôt.
Mais ce n'est pas suffisant.

En fait, le nouveau système agit comme si les remplacements coûtaient du ravitaillement.

Exemple, tu viens de faire un gros combat, tu replies ta grosse armée endommagée vers une cité avec un bon dépôt, tu cliques partout en F2 et au tour suivant, grosse
déception, rien est arrivé, ton armée est toujours amochée grave.
Pourquoi?
Parce que ton armée a absorbé tout le ravitaillement disponible durant ce tour et rien n'a été laissé pour les remplacements (je te rassure là, le système se souvient que tu
as cliqué à mort en F2 et l'a gardé en mémoire*, tu n'as pas claqué ton fric pour rien; dès que les conditions seront remplies, tes remplacements seront envoyés).

Seule solution, diviser ton armée en plusieurs morceaux et les envoyer dans plusieurs dépôts différents de façon à ne pas saturer chaque province et à laisser de la marge.

En clair, le nombre de remplacements reçus est directement proportionnel au ravitaillement en excès dans chaque province.

Et le ravitaillement en excès est la différence entre le ravitaillement total dans la province au tour X (si y a du pillage, ben, c'est bête) et tous les besoins, j'ai bien dit tous.
(Evidemment, plus ton dépôt est gros, plus tu produis de ravitaillement par tour, plus ton excès de ravi est important, plus tu vas recevoir de remplacements dans le tour)

Autre exemple: tu as suivi mes conseils et divisé ton armée en morceaux repartis dans plusieurs provinces.
Manque de bol, le morceau Y n'a rien reçu ce tour car au même moment est arrivé dans la province un gros convoi d'Impedimenta vides qui a tout absorbé, une fois ton morceau
ravitaillé lui aussi. Et la meilleure preuve, c'est que le convoi en question ne s'est pas totalement rempli durant le tour. Et tant qu'il ne le sera pas, il n'y aura pas d'excès et donc pas de remplacements. Faut attendre ou l'envoyer ailleurs.


Dernier point manifestement capital: pour recevoir des remplacements, ton unité doit être immobile pendant tout le tour.
(J'ai eu une ou deux exceptions il me semble avec une troupe en mouvement mais c'est vraiment très rare).


Voilà pour faire court.


Ce que j'aime beaucoup dans ce système, c'est que ça procède de la même façon que pour le ravitaillement à AJE.
La constitution de grosses armées opérationnelles est quelque chose de très délicat et compliqué à mettre en œuvre et permet probablement d'éviter la doctrine à la Attila:
"je crée mon gros stack indestructible et je rase tout sur mon passage".


J'ai testé contre l'IA, ça demande de la gestion fine et intelligente, ça, c'est sûr. L'hiver est assez pratique pour cela à condition de pas trop traîner dans la neige quand même (à cause de l'attrition). Puis au printemps, les morceaux se rassemblent et les grosses armées se tabassent jusqu'à l'automne. Un peu comme en vrai.



J'en viens maintenant au "système des remplacements d'éléments détruits dans les unités".
C'est beaucoup plus simple.

Pour recevoir de nouveaux éléments éliminés au combat, il faut juste que l'armée en question passe (il n'y a pas besoin d'être immobile) sur un dépôt.
Apparemment, il n'y a pas ni contrainte de ravitaillement, ni d'attitude particulière.
J'en ai même vu une (d'armée) complètement en déroute, être éjectée vers un dépôt et récupérer des éléments au passage.
Attention toutefois, un seul nouvel élément par unité et par tour, pas plus! (une de mes légions réduite à son simple Legatus a mis 10 mois pour revenir à effectifs complets)


Voilà à peu près le système, tellement plus riche qu'en vanilla.
Bon, évidemment, tout cela n'est pas une science exacte, il y a encore parfois des trucs que je pige pas mais en gros, ça marche, j'ai testé.


* J'ai remarqué que quand tu as trop cliqué en F2, je jeu ne te permet plus de le faire car il sait que tu as pleins de remplacements déjà achetés et prêts à être envoyés à tes armées dès que les conditions sur le terrain auront été réalisées.





IN ENGLISH NOW:

First, you must distinguish "normal replacements" (F2) from "replacements of items or elements destroyed in the units": it is two different things.


I begin with "normal replacements", this is the most complicated.

First point, regions without a depot is nearly unable to give replacements; so except for very small forces like garrisons or small units, replacements are not arriving.
And when they arrived, it is at a very small rate and it could take many turns to refill a small garrison depleted by a failed siege for example or normal attrition.
That means the small force must be alone in the region, no other big army.

Now, the second point, it is crucial: when you want to receive replacements in number, YOU MUST HAVE A DEPOT.
But this is not enough.

In fact, the new system acts as if the replacements were costing supplies.



Example: you just made a big fight, you retreat your big but damaged army in a region with a good depot, you click anywhere in F2 and the next round, big disappointment, nothing happened, your army is still seriously damaged.
Why?
Because your army has absorbed all the available supply during this turn and nothing was left for replacements (I assure you there, the system remembers that you clicked until death in F2 and kept it in memory*, you have not spent your money for nothing and once the conditions will be met, your replacement will be sent).

So, the solution is to divide your army into pieces and send them in several different regions with depot so as not to saturate each province and leave room to excess in supply in each.

Clearly, the number of replacements received is directly proportional to the excess supply in each province.

And supply excess is the difference between the total supply in the province at turn X (if there is looting, well, not a good thing of course) and all the needs in suplly, i said ALL.
(Obviously, the more depots you have, the bigger supply you produce each turn, the more supply you have in excess, the more you'll receive replacements in the round)


Another example: you followed my advice and split your army into pieces distributed in several provinces.
Bad luck, the Y piece received nothing this turn because at the same time arrived in the province a big Impedimenta empty convoy that absorbed all supply available. And the best proof is that the convoy in question was not completely refilled during the turn. And so it will not be, there will be no excess supply so no replacements.
You just have to wait or send the convoy elsewhere.


Last but not the least: in order to receive replacements, your unit must be stationary during the round.
(I got a couple exceptions where armies received replacements after a move but it remains very rare)


That's for short.


What I love about this system is that it proceeds in the same way as the supply system in AJE.
The formation of larges and operationals armies is something very delicate and complicated to do and probably avoids Attila's doctrine:
"I creat indestructibles big stacks and i destroy everything on my way".

I have tested it against the AI​​, it needs fine and intelligent management, that's sure. Winter is quite convenient for it at the condition of not moving too long into the snow because of attrition. Then in the spring, the pieces come together and large armies beat up until fall. Like in real life.




I now speak of the "system replacements for destroyed units elements or items".
It is much simpler.

To receive new items eliminated in combat, you just need the army in question goes through a depot and, very important to know, you army is not forced to be immobile.
Apparently there is no constraint of supply, or special attitude or something else.
I even saw one army completely routed, been ejected to a depot and receiving items during the move!
Caution, however, only one new item per unit per turn, no more! (one of my nearly totaly depleted Legion with only a simple Legatus left took 10 months to get back to full strength)


That's about the system, so much richer than in vanilla.
Well, obviously, all this is not an exact science, there are still things that i sometimes do not understand but basically it works, I've tested.




* I have noticed that when you click too much in F2, the game ends up not allowing you to click more because it knows you already have plenty of replacements already purchased and ready to be sent to your armies as soon as conditions on the ground will be met.





That's all.

Now, 2 remarks:

first, it seems the attrition system in your mod (i love it) is directly a consequence of the replacement system.
So the cause is simply you replace 2 by 1 in Settings/GameRules

//Replacements

rulRecoverHit = 1 // <--- Modded by Numahr (credit to RSR Mod by HanBarca to identify this change) / 1 in Primus Pilus Edition, 2 in Vanilla


I have tested it as only modification of vanilla game.



Second, IMHO, the new replacement system is more a prejudice for Hannibal's army than for romans armies beacause these last one's can take benefit of an already defensive
system (with depot) in the north of Italy as in the same time, Hannibal's army has already serious supply troubles which will unable him to receive any replacements.
So Hannibal should perhaps be a little better than he is already and battle should be more decivises, that seems clear to me.

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PhilThib
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Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:25 pm

Looks interesting indeed. Do you feel it is more realistic for ancient warfare then?
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rominet
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Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:52 pm

PhilThib wrote:Looks interesting indeed. Do you feel it is more realistic for ancient warfare then?


I am not a specialist.

However, everything that can prevent a player to use his big army without doing any pause, for resupply, cohesion (already done in AJE) and for refit (this mod) seems to be, IMHO, a good thing.
I also wonder why this is not the default replacement system of AJE as it is already implemented in and there is only a "2" to be changed in a "1". :D

numahr
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Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:01 pm

I tried the theory exposed by rominet and I think he is right. In this context I can now make this rule the official replacement rule of the mod, no need for two editions.

New version up:
0.3: Alternative replacement rule re-instated, rout is more dangerous, commanders’ statistics are more decisive and malus to besiegers is toned down.

I summarized the alternative rule as such:
- Replacement of partial elements only takes place in a depot, using available extra supply. Partial elements receive replenishments in proportion of extra supply, and receive no replenishment if no extra supply. Large armies with many affected elements need to be split up in several high depot cities to recover quickly.

Thanks rominet for insightful feedback!

TC271
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Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:59 am

Hi Guys,

I have also tested this and can confirm Rominets findings.

Now I have played with this for a bit I really like this setting - it forces you to either keep campaigning with depleted forces or split up into depot regions to repair the damaged units which feels realistic....it gives the campaign a natural 'ebb and flow'.

The only issue with this is I think its going to massively hurt Hannibal as its hard to build a logisical base in Italy.

numahr
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Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:34 am

Basically this is the problem of any mod: scenarios are not balanced by the devs with mods in mind. As the many changes in the mod (not only logistics) affect game balance, pay attention to this before enabling it. Basically the mod overall favors the "defensive side" who fights against invaders from a logistical point of view, and favors the "strong" side with good leaders and cavalry to pursue from the battles point of view. So if the AI is supposed to attack or does not have good military in your scenario, it will be weakened and you should consider playing with the base game.

In the 2nd Punic war scenarios, the MOD fits very well a human Carthage as it adds a level of logistical challenge while giving you the opportunity to win more decisive battles; but it does not fit too well a human Rome as the Carthage AI is maybe not able to cope and adapt to the changes.

Also don't underestimate the effects of the battle mechanics change: they are slightly less obvious, but based on experiments they are huge. Some wars get a more decisive endings earlier than before, and this, again, is a challenge to the original timing and balance designed by the developers.

Finally don't also overlook the changes done to ROE: now choosing the maximum offensive posture as well as the maximum defensive one means you really try to go for a decisive engagement where you try to break the enemy (as your commander will not want to retreat). On the contrary, the conservative and feint attacks are much less intense and let you "harass" the enemy with fewer casualties than before, for example in a goal to reduce a bit the cohesion in a war of attrition...

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rominet
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Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:06 pm

I agree with the fact the vanilla scenarios are not quite adapted to the new mod.
I think it is especially true concerning Impedimenta.

In the scenario "Gaesetae", the Gallish have absolutely no Impedimenta which is a real headache for them because they can not build at least 1 depot.
Perhaps 1 or 2 Impedimenta available should be good.

And in 2nd Punic war scenarii, Carthage has only 10 Impedimenta (and 1 blocked in Carthago) which is quite a few for an offensive side.
In the same time, Roma, which is the defensive one's (at least at the beginning) has many more Impedimenta (27 + 1 at Roma)
The attachment smil4180087271326.gif is no longer available

It is a huge difference.

Is it possible to mod the scenarii?
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Bohémond
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Mon Sep 29, 2014 4:18 pm

It's possible to mod the scenarii.

The event file should be modded, much easier for testing, than .scn file.

Let me know if I can help

Regards
Marco, perché vai così forte in salita?» «Per abbreviare la mia agonia.

numahr
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Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:31 pm

Hum... why not modding scenarios? But the question is: does the AI know to create depots? If yes, we could add impedimenta to some factions in dire need. Or add them as potential untis for recruitment. If no, we should rather create a minimum level of depots. For this the first task would be to identify which factions are currently deprived of major depot in at least their main cities. There must not be many beside the Gaesetae

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Lynxyonok
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Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:51 pm

numahr wrote:Hum... why not modding scenarios? But the question is: does the AI know to create depots? If yes, we could add impedimenta to some factions in dire need. Or add them as potential untis for recruitment. If no, we should rather create a minimum level of depots. For this the first task would be to identify which factions are currently deprived of major depot in at least their main cities. There must not be many beside the Gaesetae

I am yet to see an AI depot. I think impedimenta through events are badly needed... At least it will be a temporary reprieve.

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rominet
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Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:34 pm

Hi

I have tested now the Numahr's mod (version 0.3) on scenarii -219 and -218.

Things i can tell are:
1) Attrition system is excellent.
2) Replacement system is excellent.
3) Battles are very good and can be very decisives; some romans armies have been crushed by Hannibal's army in all-out attack posture, especially.
4) Siege system is still uncertain in the sense it seems more difficult to make breachs than in vanilla. Quite difficult for romans armies and nearly impossible for non romans armies but it is still an impression, i am not sure of my-self.


So, for me, the mod is good but while playing the scenarii -219 and -218, i realized that the mod is not very compatible with them or vice versa, especially if you play Hannibal's side.


To be very short, i give you an example:
as you know, in most cases, Hannibal's army has to cross Alpes in order to reach Italy and needs a big logistic effort.
So, the biggest trouble of Hannibal is supply. In vanilla, there are only 11 Impedimenta available for Carthage. This is the max.
When Hannibal arrives in north Italy, he begins to have serious supply troubles and this is its main preoccupation.
However, in vanilla, it is not a problem to receive replacements and only supply is a trouble.

But, with the Numahr's mod, in order to receive replacements, you not only need at least 1 depot (at the expense of 1 Impedimenta per depot level) but also, you need to have extra supply.

Extra supply in north Italy!!!!????? In the middle of looted provinces, with romans army nearby and winter coming, it is a joke!!!!

So, you need to expense Impedimenta to build depots but also, you have to split your army in several pieces if you want to have at least one chance to get extra supply (as already explained here)
But if you split your army, you lose most benefit of Hannibal's logistic bonus (there is only 1 Hannibal) so you need more supply and so on, and so on.

I hope you understand that it is nearly an impossible task for Hannibal's side to fight, receive replacements and have enough supply in the same time with only 11 Impedimenta.


Even against a medium AI, it is very difficult to stay in Cis-Alpine gaul, the worst being the -219 scenario when your army arrives on the east of Alpes in bad shape because of hard but realistic attrition of the mod.


That's why i say the mod and the vanilla scenarii are not compatible, especially with Carthage side.


So, in order to be able to give Carthage (especially) a better chance on this good mod, i have changed a little bit the -219 scen and event.

Here are the changes (the propositions):

ROMA:

1) + 5 SPQR Impedimenta (red) in the pool, so a max of 20.
2) - 2 Socci Impedimenta (orange) in the pool, so a max of 8.
3) + 12 small garrisons in the pool, so we have + 6 garrisons at start instead of - 6.
4) + 2 siege card so a max of 5*.
5) + 1 Equites, so a max of 3.
6) Supply and ammo capacity of Roma Impedimenta X 3.



CARTHAGE:

1) + 9 Impedimenta in the pool, so a max of 21.
2) + 12 small garrisons in the pool, so we have + 11 garrisons at start instead of - 1.
3) + 1 siege card, so a max of 4*.
4) + 200 denarii, so 550 at start.
5) + 2 Triremes in the pool, so a max of 9.
6) Supply and ammo capacity X 4 for Gades, Carthago Nova et Utiqua.
7) Supply and ammo capacity X 12 pour Carthago.


Event:

Insubres revolt (not Boii revolt): the Insubra army (not the Boii army) arrives with 4 carthagian Impedimenta full of supply and ammo.**
And the carthagian loyalty changes of the 4 provinces in the vicinity of Mediolanum is 80% and not 50%***.



* because breachs seems not so easy to have than in vanilla.
** If the max of 21 carthagian Impedimenta is reached, you can't build them any more until you have less than 21 on map.
*** This is to reduce the risk of looting by carthagian troops in these provinces and to prevent supply penalty from the Numahr's mod (- 75% limit).



Of course, i am open to criticism or suggestions or better ideas.




I give you the 2 files:
the first one has to be place in your HAN/Events directory
the second one, in HAN/Scens directory.

Remenber, these files are for 1.01 beta patch of AJE HAN and for HARDE 0.3 Numahr's mod.

I will post new files when 1.01 official patch will be released.




PS: Numahr, if you prefer i post elsewhere, tell me. :)
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numahr
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Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:16 pm

Hi rominet that sounds excellent. :D

I will test your module and integrate it. As I said, it makes total sense to tweak the scenarios to the mod. What you are suggesting seems like a good, well-thought and balanced approach :thumbsup:

Note: on your question re. siege, I still kept a -1 malus to the dice roll of besiegers compared to Vanilla. So your feeling that sieges are longer and more difficult is logical. That -1 can be re-considered... My own observations are OK with it for the time being. When did Hannibal win a siege? :confused:

numahr
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Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:14 pm

After testing I have integrated rominet's scenario module for Hannibal -219 in the OP for easy access, with due credit of course.

Otherwise the mod seems to achieve its goal as it is now. I don't plan any further change for the time being :)

numahr
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Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:56 pm

3 pieces of news:
- The mod is compatible with the latest beta patch for HAN.
- Thanks to rominet, we understood better the alternative replacement rules. In fact, you need ammunition in addition to supplies. This is now documented in the original post and read me.
- Based on testing, I've slightly updated the siege values and updated the mod in the original post. The change is hardly perceivable but slightly increases the random factor in sieges. Now sieges have slightly more odds to cause a breach or a surrender, but also to repair a breach. This should make them a little bit more dynamic without breaking the balance.

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Ruskolnikov
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Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:30 pm

Hi

Thank you for the work you put into you mod and for sharing it. I have just downloaded it and long forward to playing with it.

regards

Mark

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rominet
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Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:03 am

Ruskolnikov wrote:Hi

Thank you for the work you put into you mod and for sharing it. I have just downloaded it and long forward to playing with it.

regards

Mark


Are you talking about the HARDE mod only or the adapted scenario HAN -219 or both?

I say that because the available scenario on this thread is totaly obsolete now; if you want the update, tell me.

anjou
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Sun Jan 11, 2015 8:34 am

I'm interested in both, as well. Why not update the first page?

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rominet
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Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:07 am

anjou wrote:I'm interested in both, as well. Why not update the first page?


Because it is still a work in progress and i am currently testing it in PBEM, probably with an AAR but later (the game gives quite realistic results).
But with the last version, you can play either side for at least 6 years in game.
As my PBEM goes on, successive updates will able players to go further in the war.

Note however that, especially HARDE mod, has such consequences that AI is not very suitable to use it.
This mod is especially made for PBEM.
The main reason is that replacement system is a very hard task to control, even for good players and is far beyond AI capabilities.
If you play against AI, give it big bonus.

Well, i will post last update in few days, perhaps tomorrow monday. But it will remain an intermediate version. Not closed to additional changes.

Baris
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Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:43 pm

Following, looks interesting. Waiting AAR.

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rominet
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Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:01 pm

It will take me more time for the first release of the mod; i have a problem for the creation of a new area; Bohemond is helping me.
I hope for a release next WE.


Baris wrote:Following, looks interesting. Waiting AAR.


The AAR is not for now, sorry; i am still waiting to see if it's worth it.
Until now, the game gives very good and realistic results but we are only in spring -215.
And the AAR will be in french (with many screens), i won't have the time to make both french and english AAR.

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