vonBredow
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Two-sided hoplite lance?

Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:24 pm

Howdy,

I was just checking out various "barbarian" nation armies' graphics (damn, the Romans look boring in comparison, because everyone else is so damn colourful!) and I noticed that the Greek/Hellenic hoplites are... maybe... holding their lances the wrong way? Just check the in-game graphics and you'll see what I mean.

The hoplite is holding his shield with his left hand, and he has a lance in his right hand, but the "pointy-end" is pointing to his rear. I can only assume that the lance is two-sided... and he isn't a moron :blink:

Regards

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yellow ribbon
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Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:42 pm

Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:47 am

historical reason, he isnt...

a.) kinda counterweight
b.) its close to impossible to maneuver the sarissa and its successors with the left hand in front and the right next to the belt. Unless a thrust happens, its better to get one end deep into the ground
c.) if you march forward, you stick the lower end into the foes on the ground

[ATTACH]21363[/ATTACH][ATTACH]21364[/ATTACH][ATTACH]21365[/ATTACH]
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Sarissa_klein.jpg
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image005.jpg
...not paid by AGEOD.
however, prone to throw them into disarray.

PS:

‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘

Clausewitz

vonBredow
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Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:03 pm
Location: Frankfurt, Germany

Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:00 pm

yellow ribbon wrote:historical reason, he isnt...

a.) kinda counterweight
b.) its close to impossible to maneuver the sarissa and its successors with the left hand in front and the right next to the belt. Unless a thrust happens, its better to get one end deep into the ground
c.) if you march forward, you stick the lower end into the foes on the ground

[ATTACH]21363[/ATTACH][ATTACH]21364[/ATTACH][ATTACH]21365[/ATTACH]


Thanks! Gotta love the little details.

Regards

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Pocus
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Location: Lyon (France)

Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:39 pm

Very instructive Yellow Ribbon, thanks.
I guess they also has a dagger or something like that in case close quarter was just too ... close :)
Image


Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

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yellow ribbon
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Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:50 pm

PS:

The counterweight is called „sauroter” if I recall right.

few months ago i gave a short lesson, regarding Pontus / Bithynia troops using swords. the same topic if you want. Not even around 15 vases / sources giving any hint what was used in combat at all. very thin ice and may are copying from each other far too often.


**************
Hm…

you need to know that for transport, the infamous Sarissa was set apart into two pieces, thats the heavy metal ring in the picture. You can abuse it as spear/lance

In the graphics you can frequently see them wearing a short sword, like XIPHOS or KOPIS sword (more commonly found and proven than MACHAIRA swords) as sidearms. While the KOPIS is a famous sword design, even in use around 1100 AD.
Its arguable, since the MACEDONIAN shield is bound to shoulder and forearm, you have to turn the left towards the enemy and can barely stich, hardly any fast blow, stroke and parry at all. The shield is a hurdle. The last full measure to throw all away to fight close range.

As shorter the Sarissa/spear as more probable is the sword fight, but that’s for peltasts and other light troops.
The Greeks HOPLITE however would have carried the HOPLON SHIELD IN THE LEFT HAND and the spear in the other. Once the spear is gone, he will fight.

There were many of them with Alexander the Great. The Sarissa is as much an urban legend as TRUE, genuine innovation in that days warfare.
Osprey is really messing it here, when it comes to the possible source of your admired artists inspiration.
*********************

In closed formations any close combat can be ruled out either. The shield doesn’t protect you, but the man LEFT of you. Precisely, his right shoulder, carrying the arms at disposal. He will come as close as possible to your shield and hide behind it.
That’s why any formation/phalanx will get stronger and stronger on the right wing, as space between men of any advancing formation will get smaller and smaller. Its getting too compact to defend or for any sword practice.
That’s why the right wing was the honorably one, the decisive wing for battle. Its also the foundation of the famous Schiefe Schlachtordnung of Friedrich der Große...

Small penetrations of single combatants was deadly for any ancient closed phalanx. Romans fought them that way, penetrating it with single men only and giving pressure from front and flank, making it impossible too break formation.

In the 15/16 century the Landsknechte, using similar formations, were defeated in Austria and north Italy by fighters wearing a small rondache, roundshields, and demi-armor, penetrating the formations. They were unable to react on close range, despite having the Katzbalger short swords.

In 16-18 century the Scottish swordsmen destroyed musket/bayonet formations the same way, until British and Dutch (War in Flanders) learned not to point the bayonet to the enemy attacking you, but towards the enemy attacking the men aside.
...not paid by AGEOD.

however, prone to throw them into disarray.



PS:



‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘



Clausewitz

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