*** Guide : Combat - Melee Phase ***

[Narwhal]

After having seen the frontage rule in the first Corner on combat, and fire phase in the second, let’s now study the melee phase.

To be honest, the melee phase is, by far, the most important in AGEOD. I believe 95% of the damage in battle are done in melee.

For this test, we are not going to take our archers or last time, but a stronger force in melee.

I wanted to take a legion, to have an epic legion vs phalanx combat, but I settled for something smaller :

On the Roman side, a unit of 5 elements of cavalry, with Sulla (6-5-5) merged with the unit, and a unit of 4 Roman auxiliaries. Sulla is the only leader in the unit.

On the Pontic side, a unit of 10 Hellenistic phalanxes elements, with Diogenes (4-2-1) merged with the unit, and Archaleos (4-4-4) leading the stack.

Here are the people involved :



The battle happens in Wooded Hills. Both sides are in attack, but the Romans are “conservative” in their attack.

Once again, I am going to use the battlelog. The beginning is familiar :

13:05:19 (Reporting) GetRound SubList 22 SUs can be involved during this round.
13:05:19 (Reporting) Round: 0 Optimates is committing 9 Lines SUs and 1 Supports SUs
13:05:19 (Reporting) Round: 0 Pontus is committing 10 Lines SUs and 1 Supports SUs
13:05:19 (Reporting) OPT 1001190 Roman Cavalry [Line] Round ROF: 1 Round Initiative: 9 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
13:05:19 (Reporting) OPT 1001180 Roman Auxilliaries [Line] Round ROF: 1 Round Initiative: 7 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
13:05:19 (Reporting) PON 1002486 Hellenistic Heavy Infantry [Line] Round ROF: 0 Round Initiative: 5 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
13:05:19 (Reporting) PON 1002483 Hellenistic Heavy Infantry [Line] Round ROF: 0 Round Initiative: 5 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
13:05:19 (Reporting) PON 1002489 Hellenistic Heavy Infantry [Line] Round ROF: 0 Round Initiative: 5 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
13:05:19 (Reporting) OPT 1001192 Roman Cavalry [Line] Round ROF: 1 Round Initiative: 9 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
13:05:19 (Reporting) PON 1002485 Hellenistic Heavy Infantry [Line] Round ROF: 0 Round Initiative: 5 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
13:05:19 (Reporting) PON 1002490 Hellenistic Heavy Infantry [Line] Round ROF: 0 Round Initiative: 5 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
13:05:19 (Reporting) OPT 1001181 Roman Auxilliaries [Line] Round ROF: 1 Round Initiative: 7 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
13:05:19 (Reporting) PON 1002488 Hellenistic Heavy Infantry [Line] Round ROF: 0 Round Initiative: 5 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
13:05:19 (Reporting) OPT 1001189 Roman Cavalry [Line] Round ROF: 1 Round Initiative: 9 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
13:05:19 (Reporting) PON 1002481 Hellenistic Heavy Infantry [Line] Round ROF: 0 Round Initiative: 5 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
13:05:19 (Reporting) PON 1002482 Hellenistic Heavy Infantry [Line] Round ROF: 0 Round Initiative: 5 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
13:05:19 (Reporting) OPT 1001182 Roman Auxilliaries [Line] Round ROF: 1 Round Initiative: 7 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
13:05:19 (Reporting) OPT 1001191 Roman Cavalry [Line] Round ROF: 1 Round Initiative: 9 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
13:05:19 (Reporting) PON 1002484 Hellenistic Heavy Infantry [Line] Round ROF: 0 Round Initiative: 5 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
13:05:19 (Reporting) OPT 1001179 Roman Auxilliaries [Line] Round ROF: 1 Round Initiative: 7 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
13:05:19 (Reporting) PON 1002487 Hellenistic Heavy Infantry [Line] Round ROF: 0 Round Initiative: 5 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
13:05:19 (Reporting) OPT 1001188 Roman Cavalry [Line] Round ROF: 1 Round Initiative: 9 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
13:05:19 (Reporting) PON 1002453 Diogenes [Support] Round ROF: 1 Round Initiative: 10 BattleGround: Wooded Hills
13:05:19 (Reporting) OPT 1001096 Lucius Cornelius Sulla [Support] Round ROF: 1 Round Initiative: 11 BattleGround: Wooded Hills

As you may notice, out of 22 elements, 21 are committed. The uncommitted element is Diogenes, who is merged with the phalanxes. While merged with the cavalry, Sulla is committed. Why ? Because there is no “independent” commander for the stack, so Sulla is considered as “not-merged” with the cavalry so he can fulfill this role.

13:05:19 (Reporting) Round: 0 Battle is now at range 1
13:05:19 (Reporting) There are 4 SU eligibles to attack at this range (1).

OK, we already did this phase. That’s the auxiliaries hurling javelins. Normally, this phase is clear for us.

13:05:19 (Reporting) Round: 0 Battle is now at range 0
13:05:19 (Reporting) There are 19 SU eligibles to attack at this range (0).

Ahah ! It gets interesting for us.

At range zero like at any other range, each unit is picked one after the other, randomly by influenced by initiative. Yet again, I cannot show it with the log, but the developer explained me that all the elements are put in a “randomizing bag”, and one element is randomly picked, each element being “weighted” according to its initiative.

Once an element is picked (it can only be picked once by round, there is no “rate of fire” equivalent for melee), it has to pass a modified quality (=discipline, see below for modifiers) test on a dice with 10 faces (it must do its TQ or less). If it fails, it will not attack this turn.

Basically, in the log, you will see something like this :

14:10:51 (Reporting) *** Start of action # 5 1001191 Roman Cavalry vs 1002487 Hellenistic Heavy Infantry ***
[lots of useless lines]
14:10:51 (Reporting) Attacker failed to assault (Quality check failed)
14:10:51 (Reporting) *** End of action ***

If the unit is picked and pass this test, the element has a chance to hit, in percentage, of :
Modified TQ * Modified Assault Value * 0,5
Unfortunately for the element, the targets strike back at the same time, with its own modified TQ * modified Assault * 0,5 chance to hit.

Modified TQ is basically base TQ + terrain bonuses + leader bonuses.

Modified assault value is base assault + lack of cohesion maluses + lack of strength points malus.

Note that leader bonuses work that way :

The relevant stat (offensive of defensive) of the leader of the stack is compared to the relevant stat of the guy of the other side for the relevant stat. Each difference in point gives a 10% bonus, but no negative value is possible.

The same thing is done for the leaders merged with the units, if any. In 1.01, the 10% bonus for unit leader should become 5%.

In our case, the relevant stat will always be offensive.

The result is added.

So let’s do the check for some Hellenistic infantry fighting the Roman Cavalry.

14:10:51 (Reporting) Attacker 1002484 Hellenistic Heavy Infantry health: 9 Cohesion:86
14:10:51 (Reporting) Defender 1001189 Roman Cavalry health: 5 Cohesion:58
14:10:51 (Reporting)
14:10:51 (Reporting) *** Start of action # 13 1002484 Hellenistic Heavy Infantry vs 1001189 Roman Cavalry ***

Calculation :



Control :

14:10:51 (Reporting) Assaulter value with leader tactical rating: 8.40
14:10:51 (Reporting) Assaulter final Assault value: 10.00
14:10:51 (Reporting) Attacker ToHit: 42.00 rolled a 42 scoring a hit Defender remaining Health&Cohesion 1 / 38
14:10:51 (Reporting) Receiver final TQ value: 7.70
14:10:51 (Reporting) Receiver final Assault value: 12.00
14:10:51 (Reporting) Defender ToHit: 46.20 rolled a 45 scoring a hit Attacker remaining Health&Cohesion 7 / 73

The calculations were correct.

If it hits its target, the unit inflicts the first number after “assault damage” in strength points, and the second in cohesion.

You might note that the losses do not perfectly match for cohesion. This is due to the fact that a unit that assault (or fire, actually) loses 3 in cohesion “automatically”. A unit on the receiving end of melee loses 1 in cohesion (which for some reason is calculated “after” the “Defender remaining Health&Cohesion” you see above). The Greek element has thus lost 13 in cohesion in this combat (10 from the cavalry, 3 due to its assault).

Now there are a few things to note that can impact damage :

- First shock

An element that attacks in melee for the first time in the battle get a bonus depending on the unit. Most “civilized” infantry have none, barbarians get +20%, Roman cavalry get +50%

For instance (I had to run another battle) :

15:20:45 (Reporting) Attacker 1001190 Roman Cavalry health: 5 Cohesion:61
15:20:45 (Reporting) Defender 1002485 Hellenistic Heavy Infantry health: 10 Cohesion:86
15:20:45 (Reporting) *** Start of action # 7 1001190 Roman Cavalry vs 1002485 Hellenistic Heavy Infantry ***
(…)
15:20:45 (Reporting) Assaulter value first shock coefficient: 150.00
15:20:45 (Reporting) Attacker DmgDone: 0 CohDone: 0 AsltDmgDone 2 AsltCohDone: 10
15:20:45 (Reporting) Attacker ToHit: 52.80 rolled a 25 scoring a hit Defender remaining Health&Cohesion 8 / 71

If you count, the cavalry inflicted 15 cohesion damage instead of only 10, so +50% That’s the first shock bonus.

- Charge and Disruption

Many cavalry can attempt to “disrupt” or “charge” (heavy cavalry), depending on the element. This requires to roll a 30 (charge) or 20 (disruption)-sides dice under the discipline of the cavalry element. The discipline is modified by the offensive rating of the leader of the unit, or half the offensive rating of the leader of the stack if there is no unit leader. The chance to charge is also lowered by the entrenchment level of the target, and by its cohesion (which is good, see below).

Now a small point : Disrupt and Charge is mixed up in the AJE database as of 1.00 : heavy cavalry should disrupt (which is better) while normal cavalry should charge, but actually it is the opposite.

Given the high discipline of the Romans, the disruption is a given in most cases.
In case of success, the unit inflicts 50% more damage.
For instance :

15:20:45 (Reporting) Roman Cavalry is disrupting! [color="#FF0000"]That’s a charge ![/color]
15:20:45 (Reporting) Attacker targeting 1002482 Hellenistic Heavy Infantry
15:20:45 (Reporting) Attacker 1001188 Roman Cavalry health: 5 Cohesion:61
15:20:45 (Reporting) Defender 1002482 Hellenistic Heavy Infantry health: 10 Cohesion:85
(…)
15:20:45 (Reporting) Countercharge 1002482 Hellenistic Heavy Infantry failed forming square. [color="#FF0000"](we will see that later)[/color]
(…)
15:20:45 (Reporting) Assaulter value first shock coefficient: 150.00
15:20:45 (Reporting) Attacker DmgDone: 0 CohDone: 0 AsltDmgDone 2 AsltCohDone: 10
15:20:45 (Reporting) Attacker ToHit: 52.80 rolled a 34 scoring a hit Defender remaining Health&Cohesion 7 / 62

As you can see, the Phalanx received 85 – 62 = 23 cohesion damage and 3 health damage.

The calculation is the following :



- Counter-charge

A counter-charge is the reaction of a defender (limited to “closed formation” infantry : cohorts, phalanxes, triarii…) when under a charge or a disruption. This requires to roll a 20-sides dice under the discipline of the cavalry element. The discipline is modified by the defensive rating of the leader of the unit, or half the defensive rating of the leader of the stack if there is no unit leader. You multiply this by the cohesion / max cohesion ratio, and you got your chance to succeed.

If the counter-charge is successful, the effect of the charge is cancelled and the defender got a bonus of +100% damage if it hits the charger.

Bottomline : Given that the minimum discipline of units with “counter-charge” is 7 and goes up to 10 without experience, they have more than 50% of chance of succeeding in their counter-charge. Given that they also have a minimum Assault Damage of 3 – your cavalry and its 5 health points is going to be slaughtered if you use it against those elements.

- Impact of Health & Cohesion

The rule for the impact of health is the same for melee and for fire.
Basically, for health :
- If your element has less than 50% of health, it fights at 75% of its capacity
- If your element has less than 25% of health, it fights at 50% of its capacity

Let’s take an example :

14:10:51 (Reporting) Attacker 1002485 Hellenistic Heavy Infantry health: 10 Cohesion:84
14:10:51 (Reporting) Defender 1001191 Roman Cavalry health: 1 Cohesion:36

The Cavalry has 1 in health out of a maximum of 5, so it has a -50% malus (20% of its capacity).

Check :

14:10:51 (Reporting) Receiver value with cohesion: 12.00
14:10:51 (Reporting) Receiver value with penalty from losses: 6.00

[As for cohesion – I am waiting for more testing, so I will expand this]

- Impact of stances

The chances to hit (range and melee) are increased or decreased according to the stance of each side.
Here is what their effects are :
- All-out attack gives you +35% of chance to hit the first round, but gives your opponent +50% the first round. These 2 bonus will slowly go down as turns pass.
- Conservative attacks will give -30% chance to hit to both sides starting on the 3rd round,
- Feint attack – 70% starting from the second round
- Defend at all costs gives +10% to both sides

All other stances give no specific bonus.

[jack54]

Thank you, once again!!! This really helps!

[Hobbes]

These posts are great Narwhal - very helpful.

Thanks,
Chris

[loki100]

indeed, this level of testing and care in reporting is really impressive. Ok you can't affect how a battle unfolds but with this you can both understand what happened and maybe do some more effective force tailoring etc

[Darksky]

I missed you posted it also here. Again, great work. Thanks a lot.

[Donegal]

Sticky please

[Darksky]

What parameters ATKFiren and DEFFiren (n i guess is the current round) mean ?
I guess they are modifier, but how they work and what they modify ? Values greater than 100 are bonus or malus ?

EDIT: Nevermind, i found explanation in the fire phase guide.

[borra]

I have some questions about mele combat.

When a unit attacks another, the unit attacked (defending unit) can strike back. But, this strike back is automatic? The defending unit must pass a TQ test? The strike back is only if the attacking unit hits? If the attacking unit doen't hit, the defending unit can strike back?

Thanks.

[Stoertebeker]

I have some questions about mele combat.

When a unit attacks another, the unit attacked (defending unit) can strike back. But, this strike back is automatic?
The defending unit must pass a TQ test? The strike back is only if the attacking unit hits? If the attacking unit doen't hit, the defending unit can strike back?

Good questions.

If the attacker fails the TQ check, nothing happens (the unit simply doesn't attack and so the receiver can't strike back).
The defender doesn't have to pass a TQ-check. You can imagine that the will to fight back if you are engaged in a face-to-face combat needs much less self-discipline than attacking an enemy.
But if the attacker passes the TQ check, it meens that a melee combat will happen. There, both sides will do their best to kill the enemy. So even if the attacker doesn't hit because of a too high To-Hit-Roll, the defender might hit.

[borra]

Thank you very much for your explanations.

[JacquesDeLalaing]

I think there is a small oversight in the explanations ("counter-charge"). It says that the counter-charge-test requires to roll a 20-sides dice under the discipline of the cavalry element. I guess "cavalry" needs to be removed as I assume that the TQ of the element which is trying to counter-charge is used for this test, not the TQ of the cavalry-element which is charging?

Moreover, looking at the game-logic file, it seems as if the charge/counter-charge tests do not take into account current/max cohesion (%) but rather chunks of absolute cohesion points (RoP: every 25 points of Cohesion give a bonus/malus).