How to beat Sertorius?

[pantsukki]

He seems to have a massive numerical advantage, and however the battles end, you'll lose lots of morale because you lost legionaries. I just managed to lose all 4 of Pompeius' legions by the time that Pontus attacked. Any suggestions?

[Jim-NC]

Unfortunately, I am in the same boat. It appears that as Romans you just bleed NM every time you fight barbarians. In my game of this scenario, I wasted like 35 NM in losing 4 legions + the other troops in Spain (plust replacements). I currently have 3 towns left, but they are all under siege, and I expect them all to surreder shortly, losing me all of Hispana.

I would say stay on the defensive, and avoid battle until you outnumber him by like 3 to 1 or more. As Rome, you get a bunch of cash, and can raise a lot more troops, but you have to survive the 1st year. It doesn't help that sieges are broken, and that ports produce no supply when under siege, thus making you surrender every time a siege happens. To help your cash situation, punish next to your troops, and enslave/pillage their cities (both are decisions for you). If I figure it out I'll let you know.

[Metatron]

It's easier to crush Pontus than Sertorius, fight delaying war against Sertorius while unleashing your might against Mithridates (just make sure he doesn't reach Massalia). Once Pontus is dealed with you can put all your strengh against Sertorius. Frontal battle against him at that stage is still not the best idea (barbarian screen of his legions costing you only MN). Use your fleets to outflank him and take coastal objectives to make him move or divide his forces.

[Sir Garnet]

After playing a ways into the scenario, the Sertorian forces seem to have most of their maximum strength already in the field, including all available legionaries, and the only depth in the force pool is the barbarians and not an enormous number of those. They can get adequate money from decisions and prisoners but only a slight trickle of EP absent big victories or exercising decisions or options. NM and VPs are strong if winning, but where do they go once Iberia is cleared? The Romans in Italia have more resources and the ability to raise numerous legions with patience. What is the Sertorian strategy once the peninsula is cleared of Rome's authority? Push into North Italy along the coast and risk being cut off and bypassed by Roman amphibious invasion of Iberia? Send forces to Sicily or Africa after building a navy? Just sit and fortify?

[Agesilaus]

Does anyone find the Sertorians a little too easy to play as? I steam-rolled all of Roman-Iberia effortlessly, and then when I moved to capture Massilia the game ended (apparently from a NM victory? I had a lot of NM from my constant stream of victories). With all the slaves I was capturing, I was rolling in money, and the game ended before the Spartacus rebellion. The Optimates were apparently busy with Pontus, so the only general of note I ever saw was Pompey (who I just stomped on with Sertorius). I tried continuing to play after my victory, and a few options opened up like making an alliance with Mithridates and starting a school in Iberia, but really what's the point? I just marched into Northern Italy conquering everything, and then the game crashed.

It's a good game, but Sertorius has it easy, there's no one in Iberia that can challenge him. When all of Iberia is locked down, you can develop a fleet and just march Sertorius off to Rome with a massive number of Legions and Iberian heavy foot.

[Huskalator]

What is the Sertorian strategy once the peninsula is cleared of Rome's authority? Push into North Italy along the coast and risk being cut off and bypassed by Roman amphibious invasion of Iberia? Send forces to Sicily or Africa after building a navy? Just sit and fortify?

I'm pretty sure Sertorius wins if he captures all of Hispania up to Massalia. You don't need to invade Italy.

[Cfant]

Now try the scenario with Rome - have fun However, Sertorius and Sulla are quite too strong imho. With Sulla you can play the same style as you just did with Sertorius. Well, now you know with side to play if you ever go Pbem

[Boomer]

I agree, playing as Sertorius in that scenario is too easy. A third way through the game and I was already marching my legions out of Spain and towards Italy when the victory tab popped up. Playing as the Romans is a far different matter. Even with Pompey and half the Roman army in eastern Spain, it's almost impossible to stop the juggernaut of Sertorius. Hopefully the forces or experience levels can be tweaked in a patch, because it should far harder to win as Sertorius than it currently is.

[lycortas2]

Sertorius beat Pompey in all of their battles. Sertorius was murdered by a jealous subordinate historically. Barring that happening, he may have been the next dictator of Rome, not Caesar.

[Jim-NC]

He won several, but lost a few as well. Pompey won several (according to Wikipedia).

[james56]

Historically it was very hard to beat Sertorius and the victory was down to Metellus having great intelligence, making some bold marches. He did get assassinated in the end but that was only after Sertorius losing was inevitable.

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

I agree, playing as Sertorius in that scenario is too easy. A third way through the game and I was already marching my legions out of Spain and towards Italy when the victory tab popped up. Playing as the Romans is a far different matter. Even with Pompey and half the Roman army in eastern Spain, it's almost impossible to stop the juggernaut of Sertorius. Hopefully the forces or experience levels can be tweaked in a patch, because it should far harder to win as Sertorius than it currently is.

It is important to remember that historically it was unlikely Sertorius would ever march on Rome. His goal was to liberate Hispania from Roman rule, which is indeed much easier than the Romans' objective of reconquering all of Hispania. Sertorius didn't need to conquer Rome, he just needed to repel them, but as the Romans conquering all of Hispania was necessary to achieving victory. It only makes sense that in the game Sertorius wins by gaining Hispania; him ever conquering Rome is just historically unlikely. In fact, if he had crossed the Pyrenees to get at Rome, his troops probably would've revolted against him because they were mostly Iberians who only wanted to liberate their homeland, not to destroy Rome. Perhaps the game can represent this by creating a huge national morale penalty if Sertorius's armies ever leave Spain, to symbolize that his troops were fighting for their homelands, not for some greater cause.

Historically it was very hard to beat Sertorius and the victory was down to Metellus having great intelligence, making some bold marches. He did get assassinated in the end but that was only after Sertorius losing was inevitable.

It is true that he was assassinated only after he started to lose the war. The truth is that his troops had won so many battles the past few years, but victory was still far away. They didn't comprehend Rome's massive manpower; no matter how many battles they won, they would never defeat Pompey or Metellus because the Romans would just return with a bigger army next time. By the time Sertorius was killed people were beginning to realize this and so they began to lose hope. They continued to win battles, but they also lost a few and it was nearly impossible for them to replenish their losses the way the Romans could. A good way for the game to simulate this could be having the Sertorian NM be more easily affected by lost battles: a Sertorian defeat makes them lose more NM than the Romans lose when they are defeated. That way if Sertorius loses even a few battles, he is pretty much done for. This should make up for the massive Sertorian advantage.

I have not yet bought the game, so my suggestions regarding the way the game could change to mimic history may not be practical. But it is true that Sertorius had a greater ability than the Romans to win battles, but he didn't really have much of a chance of winning the war. Sort of like Hannibal in the Punic Wars.

[Cfant]

Well, that's all fine, but Sertorius didn't wipe out whole Roman armies. In the scenario, it only takes a few turns for him to completly destroy Pompejus' and Metellus' armies (he simply doesn't have to care much about terrain and enemy strength, as being superior in numbers, moral and fighting power). THEN, having destroyd half a dozen legions, - who knows - he might have chosen to march on Rome, maybe only with his non-hispanic-troops? Who can say?
But in the end: Who cares? There is an AAR going on about a PbEM of this scenario, it will be very interesting when the first battles happen. At least against the AI you may win the scenrio in half an hour - don't know if you would call that an interesting, well-balanced scenario

[MarsRobert]

Yes, I too have found this one unexpectedly difficult as the Romans. As I recall in the board game Imperium Romanun II, Lucullus and Pompey brushed aside Mithridites and Sertorius, respectively, without too much heartache. I can see, however, that after one abortive try as the Romans in the AJE Mithridatic War scenario that I'm going to have to start again and rethink my strategy. I conceded the match early in the second year with Pompey besieged in Tarraco. Yes, the Romans do get some hefty tax revenue in the second year, but I'm not sure it's enough with Pompey facing disaster and Mithridites on the warpath in the East. I suppose I'll have to do what someone else said about going on the defensive with Pompey until the second year, although AJE is certainly one of those games where the best defense is a good offense.

BTW, another thing really discouraging was that I had sort of assumed that Sertorius was concentrating most of his forces against Pompey. I was quite surprised then to see another very large enemy army show up and totally annihilate my couple of legions in southwest Spain. Of course all these defeats sent my faction morale plummeting. By the way, I refuse to call it 'national' morale, as there was no such thing as nationalism in those days. Nationalism was born with the French Revolution.

[Metatron]

Playing rome in a pbem of greath mithridatic war, I can just say, Sertorius is absolutly a pain in the a**. Even when you achieve a draw like situation you loose massive amounts of NM, because of cohorts lost, sertorius on the other hand simply looses some barbarians screening his legions. So you end up struggeling with your NM, spending an awful lot of money to keep it above 85/95. Thus you need about 70k, 80k men to keep him in hispania, wich makes your war against pontus harder than it should. (and don't get me started on those pirates... I got unlucky and pirtes annahilated an entire legion that was travelling east in ships lol)

Balancing Sertoirus and Sulla (althought sulla is managable by sea power) in a future patch, even just slightly would be far more interesting for pbems.

[Cfant]

Yes, one of the problems is, that you come into a spiral of downfall. Not much chance against Sertorius (most battles: loss of moral). So you have to stay defensive -> Sertorius easily captures cities (loss of moral) and every few turns the event "enemy gets upperhand in the war" triggers -> loss of moral. You have lot of money, but you not only need to uphold moral with money, but also buy plenty of reinforcements. Then the war against Pontus starts and due to low moral you my kill lots of Pontiacs, but under (too) high own losses -> loss of moral. Not event to talk about one serious fact: If you slaughter an Pontus army without own elements destroyed and the enemy even has to retreat, it still may be considered a Roman Defeat -> loss of moral.
I think, the scenario was planned to be quite hard in Spain at the beginning, but beating down Pontus, Rome may recover moral and tear down Sertorius by attrition. But it's quite hard the get the moral back by Ponuts, for dead Romans lead to lost battles, even if hard to understand. (There is a discussion about that going on and I think something will be done about that in the patch, but still - Romans have a hard time in Spain).
Imho something should be done to make Sertorius less deadly in offensive. He might be even stronger in defensive, but it's too easy for him to wipe out legions.

[dpt24]

Rome has it rough in this scenario, as Sparticus shows up a little ways into the game. I've also seen Pirates grab a couple bits of Italy against the AI. That said on the balance issue I'm not sure how far it is from the truth. Sertorius is not talked about as much as other Roman's in most of the things I've read, but a few books have mentioned him as one of the best generals in Roman history. Remember he did successfully resist Rome and Pompey repeatedly. In real life, part of the difference is that Pontus, Sertorius, and Sparticus overlapped, but not as greatly as in this game. Which is bad for Rome but good for Pontus and Sertorius. Otherwise Rome would defeat them in detail.

[dfeal]

In my first try Sertorius destroyed 6-8 legions in a very short space of time. I found I simply could not confront him and survive. Restarted this campaign twice more and again, Sertorius destroyed all my legions too quickly. I tried amassing my legions into one big army (8 or more legions!) but he killed these too. And supply was a nightmare. I also tried breaking them into smaller units and trying to pick-off his smaller units and towns. Still no use. As soon as I took a town, the very next turn I would face a large Sertorius band that would take the town back and decimate my units. There wasn't even enough time to resupply and rest... and then I finally beat them all, and rather easily. Would you like to hear how? =o)

Supplies! I thought that if I was having great problems supplying my large forces surely Sertorius must be experiencing the same difficulties. That or the game AI cheats. So here's what I tried... I massed all my forces in Hispania and made a stand in Emporiae. Behind its nice big walls. I then used all my supply wagons and transport ships to keep this massive army fed. I abandoned the rest of Hispania and drew a line at Emporiae. Pompeius was already there but it was a mad rush and dodge to get the other forces to northern Hispania. Boy, does Sertorius attack your units quickly. This also meant that my forces in Asia could stay there and deal with Pontus and not be drawn into the conflict in Hispania. In effect; fight two wars and fronts at the same time.

Anyway, this drew Sertorius to Emporiae and because I had amassed a large force there, so did Sertorius. Now I waited and let his men eat through all his supplies. And then they began to weaken! While my 8 legions were resting and being constantly supplied by land and sea. Then, when the time was right and he was weak (his legions dropped from about 180 strength to about 70!) I stuck him! I took very few casualties and inflicted over 50% on the Sertorius forces. Taking out most of his legions.

Next I rested, resupplied and moved out in 2 large columns, destroying most of his forces. I left the towns as even then, I find the Sertorius' retake them rather too quickly and I could not afford to break my columns into small, weaker units because those Sertorius' are bloody hard to kill. Even when weakened.

The first 3 times I tried this campaign I recruited over 4 new legions (yeah, I didn't pay attention to that stupid rule that costs you 2NM for every new legion created (major engine failure IMO) and still lost over 8 legions in Hispania. The last time, when I won, I only recruit 1 new legion. In Sicilia, during the middle of the Spartucus revolt. Those little fellows are like cockroaches. Kill one and 4 spring up!

Speaking of which I have destroyed 90% of all Sertorius' forces, 90% of Pontus, and 99% of all Sarculus' slave unit but ALL my regions are set to 100% Slaves loyalty. Oh, I have them all with 100% military control. But how the Hell does that work out? How does the engine give 100 loyalty to slaves? Even in Rome!?

[Cfant]

Anyway, this drew Sertorius to Emporiae and because I had amassed a large force there, so did Sertorius. Now I waited and let his men eat through all his supplies. And then they began to weaken! While my 8 legions were resting and being constantly supplied by land and sea.

You've been sieged and STILL could supply 8 legions? How to do that?

[yellow ribbon]

[color="#FFFF00"]Speaking of which I have destroyed 90% of all Sertorius' forces, 90% of Pontus, and 99% of all Sarculus' slave unit but ALL my regions are set to 100% Slaves loyalty. Oh, I have them all with 100% military control. But how the Hell does that work out? How does the engine give 100 loyalty to slaves? Even in Rome!?[/color]


can you please provide the saves, log folder and script reports for this game.

i never saw it in this scenario, but a similar in MS87 while testing, as far i remember

[jimwinsor2]

You've been sieged and STILL could supply 8 legions? How to do that?

By sailing full supply wagons in, and empty ones out. It's seems a viable strategy, although I would not have chosen Emporiae due to all the storms that seem to hit particular coastline.

By the way 1) Great game! and 2) this is actually jimwinsor; after the site switch over I seem to have lost my log in ability, so had to form this brand new account; and 3) Sertorius is tough. I've beaten Caesar in only 28 turns by morale yesterday (yay), but Great Mithradatic War scenario has me yet vexed as the Romans.

[Sir Garnet]

What are the full sets of victory conditions for Sertorius vs. Rome vs Pontus? VPs in the long run? Is capturing Massalia alone a sudden death win?

If so (and it seems odd to tie it all to a single objective) then just don't take it and continue to play? Sertorius can have a good run early on but the force pool and resources are limited. If he loses a legion in its entirety, can he raise a new one?

[Cfant]

Well, I'm not sure, for I captured all cities in Spain with Sertorius and in Gaul (including Massilia). So I had all strategic cities of Sertorius (and the "you control spain" and "you control gaul" triggered), but I have not won. Only when I captured Rome itself, the victory message appeared. Don't know if this is wanted.

[Laruku]

dfeal, I have enjoyed reading your experiences with Sertorius. Defeating him should be top priority, more than Pontus menace. But your sound strategy, I'm afraid to say, has nothing to do against a human. Anyway, good to know and I will try it.

[dfeal]

dfeal, I have enjoyed reading your experiences with Sertorius. Defeating him should be top priority, more than Pontus menace. But your sound strategy, I'm afraid to say, has nothing to do against a human. Anyway, good to know and I will try it.

Sorry, I thought it was obvious I was only talking about playing against the AI. Personally I think a human opponent playing as Sertorius is pretty much unstoppable. I think it has already been mentioned here; just sail past the Roman legions and head straight for Rome or Massalia. I don't think the Romans can stop this if this move is played right at the start.

Also already mentioned here; for balancing purposes the Sertorius forces should receive a massive moral or command penalty if they leave Hispania.

[Sir Garnet]

Well, I'm not sure, for I captured all cities in Spain with Sertorius and in Gaul (including Massilia). So I had all strategic cities of Sertorius (and the "you control spain" and "you control gaul" triggered), but I have not won. Only when I captured Rome itself, the victory message appeared. Don't know if this is wanted.

Mousing over the Sudden Death icon, it says 175 NM is a win and 25 NM is a loss. Which is consistent with the AGEOD approach to ending things early. In PBEM with good success and breaks it is October 74 and Hispania is clear of Sullan Romans with NM in the 140s. The Hispanien forces have taken all within their easy reach. Beyond is perilous - Massalia is accessible along the coast but quite strong and easily defended, the Roman fleets are active (while the Hispanien fleets are limited), and the supply line home is vulnerable. Pushing east would seem to require a self-sufficient expeditionary force to make it near Rome.

[Juba]

Sertorius was a military genius and probably would have changed the course of history if he wasn't assassinated, Rome and Sulla probably just got sick of throwing legions at him with no result and just decided to take him out, Sulla is in it to win it doesn't matter how, thats how you stay alive in politics and enjoy a nice retirement.

[Jim-NC]

Welcome to the forums Juba. May you enjoy your stay here.

[Juba]

Thank you, long time lurker and history games junkie