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Sir Garnet
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What counts as a victory?

Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:44 am

The criteria seem rather harsh for this to rate as a Roman defeat and cost 1 NM.

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Emx77
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Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:08 am

Obviously something is wrong with victory determination criteria (at least in Spartacus scenario). See thread.

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yellow ribbon
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Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:21 am

well, its a dishonor to fight slaves and they gain you nearly no VP, EP, nor moral... Roman line troops however are precious.
you can count in ALL scenarios, 1000 lost Romans are 1 lost NM


As you see Pocus itself is looking into it, but for my part if the army escapes with two third of his troops and a dead legionare barely kills and takes prisoners of 10 , its a victory for the slaves.

i tested it with gladiators only and get slave victories, with barbarians and get much easier a victory for barbarians, or stalemates and in another thread a player reported the same, the moment he had more romans/slaves he had a relevant outcome
...not paid by AGEOD.
however, prone to throw them into disarray.

PS:

‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘

Clausewitz

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Emx77
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Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:16 am

yellow ribbon wrote:well, its a dishonor to fight slaves and they gain you nearly no VP, EP, nor moral... Roman line troops however are precious.
you can count in ALL scenarios, 1000 lost Romans are 1 lost NM


Ok, it make sense that you as Roman don't gain VP, moral... for killing slaves. But still, in above example, Romans fought almost three times larger slave army. They managed to route them, inflict 33% casualties to enemy while suffering (only) 8% own casualties. Simply, it seems unfair and counterintuitive to count this as slaves victory.

Also, I will take this opportunity to ask how final victory score is calculated in Spartacus scenario? I played it as Spartacus, conquered all of Southern Italy and earned 794 victory points (VPs). Romans only earned 302 VPs. I expected clear victory, however game judged it as slave minor victory. What puzzles me is scoring system at the end of scenario: where do scores of 264, 196 and 114 come from? In manual there is only explanation about VPs and nothing about score. What is the difference between VPs and final score? In this example there is a much larger gap between slaves and Romans victory points then between scores.

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yellow ribbon
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Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:31 pm

see, Romans are not supposed to be easily replced in the scenario, but they get a lot of additional options and forces when they lost a lot of elements. the same time, they gain nearly nothing but rest, if they fight the slaves.

now, lets have a look on the battle screen. you have similar numbers of KIA+POW, but the Romans have only on third of the combat power (expressed in men) than you AND they are considered much more valuable.

in such a situation, loosing nearly 1/10 of the troops is a disaster (historically it was), the slaves can free new slaves, but can the legions give birth to new legions? No.
thereby the difference how the troops are treated. As the slaves are the lowest ranked unit and was introduced in game after all balance was done, it appears to be wrong balanced, but makes sense if you played all various other factions and learn about the huge impact of slight changes in the stats.
more i cannot say, for i cannot write what was discussed, it stays in the beta forum, at least from my side.
if the disequilibrium is that harsh, that it outclass the normal battle report logic , they will find something to change. but they decide if and if-yes, what.

for the victory screen:

you take the decision to evacuate north or south, your aim is not a military defeat f Romans by VP, its the evacuation or the capture of Rome. might happen that only ALL objectives taken/getting away from Italy are leading to the major victory.
[color="#FFFF00"]I am not sure here, havent played the scenario for weeks[/color]
...not paid by AGEOD.

however, prone to throw them into disarray.



PS:



‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘



Clausewitz

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Emx77
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Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:57 pm

@yellow ribbon - I understand Roman legions are hardly replaceable, valuable etc. It's perfectly reasonable a cohort element to worth much more victory points then some other low discipline element. But pay attention that in above battle Romans didn't loose a single element so there is no need to replace anything via Production screen.

Even if they lost a cohort or two it is clear that Romans achieved at least a tactical victory. They attacked tree times numerous army which routed with heavy casualties. We may discuss if it is a strategic victory (because of limited replacements or whatever else) but I am pretty much sure in that case game would have a lot of trouble to differentiate what is strategic and what is tactical victory.

yellow ribbon wrote:for the victory screen:

you take the decision to evacuate north or south, your aim is not a military defeat f Romans by VP, its the evacuation or the capture of Rome. might happen that only ALL objectives taken/getting away from Italy are leading to the major victory.
[color="#FFFF00"]I am not sure here, havent played the scenario for weeks[/color]


I made deal with pirates and had a decent stack in Metapontum (which is evac point). If I remember correctly I've seen only once notification about evacuation rewarding me 10 victory points. Please note, even this is expressed in terms of victory points during gameplay. So, it is pretty much confusing to see these accumulated victory points converted into some score at the end of scenario. Why do we need victory points then? Why we are not able to see this score during a gameplay? What factors or formula influence conversion of victory points into final score?

I would like that someone explains difference between accumulated victory points and final score.

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Pocus
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Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:55 pm

End score comes from that:

Military
Each 50 points of combat power: 1 point

Civilization & Social:
Each city: level-2 points (yes villages cost you!)
Being a major nation: +100

Commerce
Each 20 points of commerce capacity: 1 point

Diplomacy & Victory
Each 15 VP: 1 point

You had a major victory: add 1000 points
You had a major defeat: lose 75% of your total


As you see, score is somehow 'simple' in its calculation. No doubt we could write pages of code just for it...
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Emx77
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Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:34 pm

Thank you Pocus. Your answer is very informative. Now it is much more clear what influence final score. Victory points are only a part of whole picture especially if you play with non-major nation as it is case in Spartacus scenario.

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Sir Garnet
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Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:30 pm

Even though legions were replaced it was not as easy as rallying slave levies. Even though Rome was a great deal less dissuaded by losses than, say, the USA 2100 years later, I can accept NM negatives for losses.

However, how does the battle rate as a defeat? By the logic above that any casualties are a defeat (more of modern approach to battle evaluation), the Spartacus scenario is an automatic defeat for Rome because the revolt occurred so it is only levels of defeat.

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Emx77
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Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:58 pm

Unfortunately, I have to rise a question about what counts as victory, again. Latest example - Marius vs Sulla scenario. I scored minor victory as Populares. Here is a Consilium screen:

Image

Please note, I control all objectives except Cirta. That is 9 out of 10 (9/10). I'm sure I would be able to conquer Cirta but Numidian plot option didn't fired (possibly because of bug). On the other hand, Optimates are controling only 2/10 objectives and they lost almost whole army. Pontus is controlling 2/10 objectives. In addition, I have almost double victory points compared to Pontus and Optimates. My losses are half of my opponent losses.

How come this is ONLY a minor victory?

Let me be clear here. I can swallow this against AI but what in a hell you need to do against human opponent to win in this scenario? Why to bother playing against human if you cannot win?

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Narwhal
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Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:05 pm

Major victory : you control ALL the objective cities at the end of the game or you reduce your opponents NM to 0 (or reach 200 yourself)

Minor victory : anything else.

If an objective is not reachable due to a bug or something, that's an issue.

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Emx77
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Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:08 pm

Narwhal wrote:Major victory : you control ALL the objective cities at the end of the game or you reduce your opponents NM to 0 (or reach 200 yourself)

Minor victory : anything else.


Thank you. I didn't know this. Do you know what conditions are required for minor victory?

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Narwhal
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Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:12 pm

More score than your opponent, I suppose. Or maybe more VP ? I actually don't know which.

See Pocus's post a but above.

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Emx77
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Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:24 pm

Narwhal wrote:More score than your opponent, I suppose. Or maybe more VP ? I actually don't know which.

See Pocus's post a but above.


Unfortunately, Pocus wrote only what brings points. Not how many you need for victory.

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Narwhal
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Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:44 pm

You need to have a better score than your opponents to have a minor victory. Or maybe just more VPs. It is just a comparaison from that point. No hard limit.

It is the first game to use this system. OK, maybe RUS used it, but in general it ended with a total collapse of one side, so points did not play any role.

Cfant
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Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:14 pm

In the scenario description (when you start the game) it is said, that POP win, if they control Rome AND ANY ROMAN SIDE HAS CONQUERED Ponuts (or Asia, don't remember ;) )
Maybe for major victory some other cities are needed?

@Numidians: Did the dimplomatic decision not come up or did it not trigger? I often forget, that it needs 20 action points (which I seldom have at that time for I need decisions like raise money or sell prisoners). Maybe that's the reason? And please keep in mind: The decision will only be available for one year or so.

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Emx77
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Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:59 pm

Cfant wrote:@Numidians: Did the dimplomatic decision not come up or did it not trigger? I often forget, that it needs 20 action points (which I seldom have at that time for I need decisions like raise money or sell prisoners). Maybe that's the reason? And please keep in mind: The decision will only be available for one year or so.


It didn't trigger. Option was there, I choose it but nothing happened. On following turn option disappeared, so it was impossible to choose it again. Numidia remained excluded for movement for the rest of scenario.

Strategy
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Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:06 pm

Perhaps you selected options beyond your EP ability to pay for them? The game allow you to do that; e.g., select a 5 EP option and a 10 EP option, even if you only have 12 EP available. When that happens, the choice of which option actually gets played seems to be random (or perhaps based on the order of selection - not sure). In either case, it means that a selected option does not get played.

The option also seems to "time out" after 6 - 12 turns (not sure the precise time, but something along those lines).
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Emx77
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Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:41 pm

Strategy wrote:Perhaps you selected options beyond your EP ability to pay for them? The game allow you to do that; e.g., select a 5 EP option and a 10 EP option, even if you only have 12 EP available. When that happens, the choice of which option actually gets played seems to be random (or perhaps based on the order of selection - not sure). In either case, it means that a selected option does not get played.

The option also seems to "time out" after 6 - 12 turns (not sure the precise time, but something along those lines).


Unfortunately, I don't have save game to check how many exactly EP's I had, but I'm sure I had enough. I know that you can choose an option even when you don't fulfill necessary conditions. But in that case usually option doesn't disappear never to be shown again.

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Bohémond
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Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:28 am

Emx77 wrote:Unfortunately, I don't have save game to check how many exactly EP's I had, but I'm sure I had enough. I know that you can choose an option even when you don't fulfill necessary conditions. But in that case usually option doesn't disappear never to be shown again.


No need for a save,

Please post your Script Folder, in a archive format.

If the file has not been overwitten by another game, we can find if there an issue or not with this option.

Regards

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Emx77
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Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:42 am

Bohémond wrote:
Please post your Script Folder, in a archive format.



Here it is.
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Strategy
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Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:52 pm

As mentioned the Numidia event seems to disappears after a set period anyway. My speculation is simply that perhaps you selected it in the last turn before it would have timed out anyway.
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l'canadien
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Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:24 pm

Strategy wrote:As mentioned the Numidia event seems to disappears after a set period anyway. My speculation is simply that perhaps you selected it in the last turn before it would have timed out anyway.


Numidia event disappears with Marius

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Jim-NC
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Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:29 pm

Mine ran out with him (Marius) still alive.
Remember - The beatings will continue until morale improves.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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Bohémond
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Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:35 pm

Emx77 wrote:Here it is.


The Numidian plot option was deleted because Marius death. In the same turn, you have chosen this option.

So the option never fired because it has been deleted.

Quite confusing for player but WAD.

Regards

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Bohémond
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Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:36 pm

Jim-NC wrote:Mine ran out with him (Marius) still alive.


Need your Script folder to know why.

Regards

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Jim-NC
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Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:42 pm

I'm past that point, so I don't have it anymore. If I see it again, I'll let you know.
Remember - The beatings will continue until morale improves.

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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Emx77
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Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:11 pm

Bohémond wrote:The Numidian plot option was deleted because Marius death. In the same turn, you have chosen this option.

So the option never fired because it has been deleted.

Quite confusing for player but WAD.

Regards


Thank you. It make sense but some kind of notification for player would be welcome.

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MarsRobert
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Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:59 pm

Good points all. For my part regarding overall scenario victory, I've recognized that AJE is not an easy game, even at low difficulty levels and low aggression settings. Having said that, I think from now on when I play I'm not going to stress too much over how the game thinks I did by the end, but rather whether or not I survived reasonably intact, and more importantly, how happy I am with the way I played it. Of course all this goes out the window in multiplayer, but I feel that I have a lot to learn about AJE before I would even attempt such a thing. ;)

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Pocus
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Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:45 am

the pleasure is in the trip, not the destination indeed :)
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