Bertram
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Game mechanics questions

Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:38 am

I have played the other Ageod games, and am familiar with most game mechanics. Stil, there are some finer points I must have missed in earlier games, or are new now. Having read the manual, viewed the map, and looked at the forums, I am left with (for now :) ) two questions:

- it is stated several times that you get (most of) your money in spring, but need to spend for upkeep of your troops every turn. I can't find what this upkeep is. Is this the buying of replacements as in the previous games, or is this a sum of money, depending on the amount of forces you have in the field? And if the last, how is it calculated, and where can you fnd the amount you need each turn? (this could be clearer in the text).
- viewing the map in supply mode, and hovering the mouse above one of the icons signifying control of the region, I get a pop-up with the message "safe level 180" (or something like it, the number varies). I take it this is the size of troops the region can support. I can not find this feature in the manual, and it is not clear what the number means - power, men or something different?

More questions might follow later :) .

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Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:50 am

Bertram wrote:I have played the other Ageod games, and am familiar with most game mechanics. Stil, there are some finer points I must have missed in earlier games, or are new now. Having read the manual, viewed the map, and looked at the forums, I am left with (for now :) ) two questions:

- it is stated several times that you get (most of) your money in spring, but need to spend for upkeep of your troops every turn. I can't find what this upkeep is. Is this the buying of replacements as in the previous games, or is this a sum of money, depending on the amount of forces you have in the field? And if the last, how is it calculated, and where can you fnd the amount you need each turn? (this could be clearer in the text).
- viewing the map in supply mode, and hovering the mouse above one of the icons signifying control of the region, I get a pop-up with the message "safe level 180" (or something like it, the number varies). I take it this is the size of troops the region can support. I can not find this feature in the manual, and it is not clear what the number means - power, men or something different?

More questions might follow later :) .


- maintenance for troops is the latter one, you have to pay their living each turn (thus months), but there will be also irregular bases for more income. AGEOD games rely heavily on regional decisions, you know.

- the safe supply level is how much supply would be "stored" before there is any decay (rotting supply lost in warehouses/depots). one might consider it as a leftover from the engine (it can deal with it, but doesnt need/use it for the simply supply system)
...not paid by AGEOD.
however, prone to throw them into disarray.

PS:

‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘

Clausewitz

Kornilov
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Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:31 pm

Hallo Gentlemen,
can someone explain the supply system for 'dummies'?
This would be nice. I 've heard it is the same system like in BoA II,
which i play at atm. And there i have problems with this system.
Often my armies are dying in lag of supply.

Thank You.

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Ebbingford
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Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:20 pm

It's simple really. Each region has a supply level. This can be seen by holding your mouse over a region, the tooltip will say something like "current supply level 20". The amount of supply that this produces each turn is roughly 5 times the supply level. You can see how much your stack needs each turn by holding your mouse over the symbol of the cooking pot when the stack is selected. If it needs 98 per turn then a supply level of 20 will give you around 100 per turn which is enough. If it says it needs 130 per turn then that whole stack will starve if it stays there, you need to move some or all of it.
This simple supply is not distributed and pushed on through depots. It is only available for a stack in that region or in a bordering region. It is not stockpiled so what is not used is not saved and added to what is produced on the next turn.

wryun
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Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:38 am

Ebbingford wrote:The amount of supply that this produces each turn is roughly 5 times the supply level.


Hmm... so what's the rationale for this again? Why isn't there a tooltip with the 'actual' supply level?

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H Gilmer3
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Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:25 am

wryun wrote:Hmm... so what's the rationale for this again? Why isn't there a tooltip with the 'actual' supply level?


The way I have learned for supply is if you get supply wagons, build them - a lot of them! If someone tells me "Hey, H Gilmer, you need 2 supply wagons with your army!" I build 4 or 6! Then you have enough supply. I build depots ever 2-3 regions and upgrade them if it is possible in that game. In my PON game, I'm am upgrading to level 5 depots, I may even try to do more.

Boomer
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Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:08 am

Supply is definitely a challenge in these games, especially the pre-railroad games. Cities are like markers that help funnel supplies, and depots help, but in the ancient world so often campaigns had to be restricted by seasons and proximity to supply bases. Only rarely, such as when Caesar fooled Pompey by marching north into the rugged Greek hillside, did ancient armies ever break from supply chains and move into forage mode.

AJE is a first for that time period with the current AGE engine, so it will be interesting to see what the limits of movement and offense will be under the often brutal supply capabilities of the ancient world. I can imagine that depot type cities like Tarentum, Massalia, and Gades will be huge battle hotspots for control over supply routes.

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Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:44 am

H Gilmer3 wrote:The way I have learned for supply is if you get supply wagons, build them - a lot of them! If someone tells me "Hey, H Gilmer, you need 2 supply wagons with your army!" I build 4 or 6! Then you have enough supply. I build depots ever 2-3 regions and upgrade them if it is possible in that game. In my PON game, I'm am upgrading to level 5 depots, I may even try to do more.



Well, Ebbi. above has the privilege to speak more frank than i as a beta. As he said, supply generated in town and depots matters.

best tips for this kind of simple system:

a.) stay above half of the units capacity to carry around then move back to at least two larger cities. best spots are not large cities but areas with multiple cities adjoining.

b.) supply wagons alone will not help you in all cases (especially since they run out of supply too), but having them and naval transporters allow you a trick: building depots

here comes the trick, dont use the build-depot-function on base of the whole army/navy. use single supply wagons and naval transporters simultaneously to increase depots size, which is added to region/cities supply level.

also, if your armies recover next to cities, place the supply wagons into different smaller cities, move them back to the armies and approach the foe again

c.) its important what Ebbi. said, the supply[color="#FFFF00"] IS NOT FORWARDED[/color]
just building many depots etc will not work, nor just including as many supply wagons as you can build, empty supply wagons bias the message of partially unsupplied units, not more.

[color="#FFFF00"] the legionnaire is the mule of time[/color]

[color="#FF0000"]march, operate, move back [/color]
with at least parts of the army to resupply. or take the bloody city which give the enemy its supply.

have a clear eye on each subunit, especially if multiple factions in a stack. the maximal packages they carry around, might be decisive the antique is more challenging than the redcoats

d.) the utmost important:

BE PATIENT TILL NEXT MONTH, iTS WORTH :wacko:
...not paid by AGEOD.

however, prone to throw them into disarray.



PS:



‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘



Clausewitz

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Ebbingford
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Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:15 am

wryun wrote:Hmm... so what's the rationale for this again? Why isn't there a tooltip with the 'actual' supply level?


I don't know...... :)

Probably because it has always been done like this in the simple supply types of Ageod games, BOA, WIA and now AJE.
(IMHO it would be better if it did say actual amount of supply rather than supply level though, there would be less confusion.)

Kornilov
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Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:42 am

Thank You Gentlemen for the answers.
These tipps will help me. :thumbsup:

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Dragoon!
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Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:24 pm

Is there any technique for refilling the supply wagons in a single turn by sending them out through a depot or friendly town and back to the desired stack again?
It'd be nice to be able to refill 'on the march' supplies in a single month on a round trip move.

Also, you can build level 1 depot's with a single supply wagon? Is that right?

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Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:22 pm

no, they work as units, you have to STAY

yes, each level of depot can be created by using up ONE supply wagon or transport fleet.

(telling tricks behind the back of the devs:

never use the icon for the whole army-stack to create a depot. detach the supply wagons in different single stacks and click on each [until they close this loophole])
...not paid by AGEOD.

however, prone to throw them into disarray.



PS:



‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘



Clausewitz

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Dragoon!
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Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:32 pm

never use the icon for the whole army-stack to create a depot. detach the supply wagons in different single stacks and click on each [until they close this loophole])


Yes, you can build some mega-depots very quickly doing that! Really helpful for the Spartacus side of that scenario.

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Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:36 pm

NO, there is a maximum level and the max. depot should be good to 6-8 legions until you move on to take the next city.

as described in other posts, the most valuable spot is a godforsaken province where three larger cities have a shared border to
but this little trick is faster and similar expensive than replacements for starving troops :niark:

lets see, maybe we have to advise them, that they should make it harder for you...
...not paid by AGEOD.

however, prone to throw them into disarray.



PS:



‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘



Clausewitz

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Erik Springelkamp
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Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:57 pm

Another little question:

I try to move directly into the mountains, rather than using a detour with a road, by drag-dropping with Ctrl (following the manual, and like it worked in RoP), but that doesn't work for me: if I press the Ctrl-key I cannot pick up a stack. Is this supposed to work?

(I hope it is OK to use this thread for little questions, instead of starting a new thread for every one of them)

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Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:10 pm

it might be following:

weather effects are very good simulated in game, winter effect might happen between October and March if i remember right.

mountains can then mainly differ into two states:

a.) only cav. can go up there

b.) no one can walk there around until the pass is free again.

if it is already that far, it might really happen, WAD, that you cannot leave the roads in parts Asia minor (example).

the game transfers you out when the switch happens (explicit message),

or blockades you for some elements cant enter the region (explicit message),

or NO troops can enter (no drag and drop here, nor automatic path finding)

PS: no, absolutely fine with adding requests. We train you a bit, answer you, and you will give the support and information to new players in a few days. this saves the original developers a bit time ;)
...not paid by AGEOD.

however, prone to throw them into disarray.



PS:



‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘



Clausewitz

Bertram
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Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:19 pm

First pick up the unit, then hold <ctrl> and drop it in the desired location.... (took me a number of tries to get it right first time....).

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Ebbingford
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Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:08 pm

It might not work if you are trying to enter a mountain region though, especially in winter. Some of these are blocked when it is snowing. :cool:

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Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:16 pm

Bertram wrote:- it is stated several times that you get (most of) your money in spring, but need to spend for upkeep of your troops every turn. I can't find what this upkeep is. Is this the buying of replacements as in the previous games, or is this a sum of money, depending on the amount of forces you have in the field? And if the last, how is it calculated, and where can you fnd the amount you need each turn? (this could be clearer in the text).


It is 0,5% of the cost of your non-locked armies. I did the test as Sertorius :

Image



Kornilov wrote:Hallo Gentlemen,
can someone explain the supply system for 'dummies'?
This would be nice. I 've heard it is the same system like in BoA II,
which i play at atm. And there i have problems with this system.
Often my armies are dying in lag of supply.

Thank You.



This, from my AAR, may help you :

Beginner’s Corner : Supply

OK, the former beginner’s corner was fairly easy, but now we are going to see some fairly complex subject, including one that will make you win or lose the game : supply.

I will not cover ammo supplies for now, only “regular” supplies, AND I might make a few mistakes doing so.

Supply works significantly differently AJE compared to other AGEOD games (RoP, AACW, PoN, RUS) – so if you want to use this guide for another game, be cautious. Supply in AJE is fairly similar to supply in WiA, though.


What is supply ? How do I have information on my level of supply ?

Every element (except leaders) in your army consumes supplies. Even your supply wagons consume supplies each turn. Supply can be counted in two ways – in “supply units” and in "turns" (months) – beware, I will have to use both way of counting.

The maximum supply a unit can carry depends on the unit :

- Most “regular” units (incl. cavalry) can carry 2 months (turns) of supplies.
- Some rare units (legions, of course, but also some heavy cavalry) can carry 3 months of supplies.

Ships and siege units can differ from these “standard” values.

Note that this does NOT mean that two regular units can carry the same amount of supply, or even that Indians carry more supply units : but for a given "type" a unit consuming more supplies carries more supplies). For instance, let me show you some supply consumption, and show you where to see the current level of supply by the same occasion:

Image


Now the supply wagons and other supply units :


A supply wagon element can carry 20 “bonus” supply units, for a total of 80 supply units for a complete supply wagon unit (4 elements - I hope it is clear). This means that the impact of a unit of supply wagon in a large army will be minimal (1 month ?) but it will adds up with more supply wagons.

Image

Units in provinces with allied supply wagons will (at the beginning of a turn) first “eat” the supply units of the wagons, then their own, even if the wagons are not in their stack. Let me show you this :

With the wagons, the stack has only about 50% of its maximum supply

Image

Without the wagons, the stack has about 67% of its maximum supply, the wagons “left” with the minimum to hold one turn, not more (=8 supplies).

Image

Magazines and transport ships work the same way.

What happens if you are short on supply ?

Short on supply but still something to eat : nothing. Try to solve the situation ASAP.

Not enough supplies this turn : your army loses its combat efficiency very quickly, and receive hits. The first turn, as only you probably only have a small deficit of supply in your stack, not much. The following turns – much more.


How to produce supply ?

Supplies is produced in (almost) every province. The supply produced every turn corresponds to the "supply level" of a province, with the rule 1 supply level = 5 supply units produced per turn. You can see the supply level of a province by hovering the mouse over it. There are two “origins” for the supply :

- The countryside of a region, provided the region has not be pillaged.
- The structures, provided they are not under siege (or blockaded for ports)

The countryside of a region generates a base of 0-6 supply levels (0-30 supply units), from desert to “clear” terrain for good weather (clearly if it is winter, you won’t get much of the countryside).
Then to this base you must add +1 if there is a road, + 3 if there is a Roman Road.
Once you have this “modified base”, you must multiply it by 2 if the civilization level is “civilized”, by 3 if the civilization level is rich. That’s the total supply that will be produced next turn in the province

For instance, take Doriskos. Clear terrain by fair weather has a base of 6. Add one for the road, you got 7. It is civilized, so x2 – and you find back your 14.

Image

To calculate your “share” of the supply, you need to multiply the supply produced by your military control. For instance, in this example (as the Populares) :

Image

Clear terrain in a rainy day has a base of 5. Add the Roman road (+3) and you got 8. It is rich, so 8 * 3 = 24. Unfortunately, the Populares only control 33%, so that’s back to 8.

The structures are all or nothing. Either you do not control them and you got nothing from them, or you control them and you got everything. Except if you are sieged, in which case you still got nothing.

- Cities generate 2 supply levels (10 supply units) per level,
- Ports generate 2 supply levels (10 supply) units) per level, except if blockaded,
- Forts generate 1 supply level (5 supply units) per level,
- Depots generate 5 supply levels (25 supply units) per level. You can create depots anywhere by sacrificing 8 elements of supply wagons or transport ships (including bateaux). Basically, large armies WILL need depots to operate

If we take the two starting cities of the tutorial as examples :

Narbo :

Image

Woods : Base supply = 5. Roman Roads : +3 = 8. Civ Level "civilized", so *2 = 16.
Depot : 5 per level, so 20.
City : 2 per level, so 12.
Harbor : 2 per level, so 6
Fort : 1 per level, so 1

Total : 16 + 20 + 12 + 6 + 1 = 55

Emporiare :

Image

Hills : Base supply = 5. Roman Roads, so +3 = 8. Civ Level "rich", so *3 = 24.
Depot : 2 per level, so 10.
City : 2 per level, so 8.
Harbor : 2 per level, so 4
Fort : 1 per level, so 2
Total : 24 + 10 + 8 + 4 + 2 = 48

Important : Contrarily to previous AGEOD games, neither National Morale nor Loyalty have impact on supply produced.

How are supplies consumed ?

Units consume supply at the beginning of the turn.
All units will consume supplies the following way :
- First, all the supplies in each stack are pooled
- Then, the stack will use the supply units generated in the province they are in. If it is enough to feed everyone and put the supply stock at 100%, it is over, else…
- The stack will use the supply units generated in the directly neighbouring provinces (provided you control the neighbouring provinces as well – if a city is sieged, it won’t help, of course).
- The game will calculate the new “supply” level of the stack
- If it is negative, the unit will tap the supply reserves of the other stacks in the same province (I think, to be tested)
- If it is not enough, the stack will “pillage” the area to get some extra supply : Each unit in the stack (starting with the one with the highest "patrol" value) in need of supply will do a “foraging” test (high chance to succeed in a rich province, little chance to succeed in a frozen mountain). If it succeeds, it is fed for the turn, just barely. If it fails, the region is “looted” (red circle with fire, which may disappear each spring). No more foraging test is possible on a looted province, which also produces no more supply.

A few extra notes

- Supply produced and not "stocked" by a stack is lost. There is no "stock" in structures, only in units.

- Ships work the same way as land forces (for instance, they can draw supply from neighboring land province), but water provides no supply at all (obviously).

- A sieged fort / depot / city produces no supply, a blocked port (by winter or by an enemy force) produces no supply. You can have a sieged fort with an unblocked port (thus lowering the impact of the siege) or the opposite. Units in landlocked / blockaded structures will eat through their supply every month, then surrender. I hope you have some supply wagons, or a relieving force !


- When a stack with a supply wagons is hit by bad weather (in winter most of the time), the stack will trade supply units from the wagons (and only the wagons) to receive less (down to none) damage. Depending on your supply situation, this can be a good thing or a bad thing.

- Having much more supplie than needed can be very important, as it allows your element to recover their strength (“number of men” ;) . If you want to compensate for the inevitable attrition due to time (i.e. : illness, desertion, ̷) you will need at least a small excess in supply – and in manpower, object of a coming Beginner’s Corner.

-If you are under siege, you will get no supply, but your opponent will eat the supply of the countryside...
******


Also, I think there are too much supplies in the system, but let's see what "testing" by the players say.

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Ebbingford
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Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:27 pm

I too tend to think there are too many supplies in the game.
It should be quite difficult to move around a 4 or 5 legion stack and keep them supplied. You should be made to think about how long to keep them in the field and when resupply is needed.
At present you don't always have to do this, there is too much supply available.

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Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:04 am

you know i/we wrote a couple of things in the beta forum and i think most of the discussion belongs there.

the main body of the practical forces is now 3-5 legions in most scenarios, also used from the AI, coming together only for few turns and splitting up for resupply again.
once you have 8 legions, not to say even 12 on even only ONE side of the battle, supply is an urgent matter.

as more experienced the player, as smaller the troops body, as faster the game.

also, the Spartacus is a good example, how dangerous even pillage effects can be in a highly developed region, thus its dependingof the scenario either and we dont know whats all in the pipeline for the future...
...not paid by AGEOD.

however, prone to throw them into disarray.



PS:



‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘



Clausewitz

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Sir Garnet
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Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:50 am

How many supply chips (the levels of 5 supply, or 5 supply and some ammo - according to the manual) do depots generate? Other than being required for replacement of elements under Historical Attrition, do they have any other property but generating more supply?

I think it's easiest to think of supply wagons as wagons. You load them, move them, empty them, move them, load them . . . . capture them, loot them

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Ebbingford
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Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:14 am

A level one depot only increases the supply level by 5.

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