Some feedback on fleet combat

[steelwarrior77]

I really enjoy the game but about fleet combat something is way off IMO - I experienced twice in a campaign that in a turn there were 6 combats occuring - with the same fleets and the same fleet loosing again and again - how would that work - would a fleet that looses not flee the first time and especially as fleet combat was not about shooting but rather rowing, ramming and boarding - how would a pursuing fleet catch the other one in two turns 8 times in a row - they did not have radar as far as I know and also no planes or motorboats ;-D - the problem about it is, that once on the loosing side getting wiped out is happening in 90% of the cases - I would love to see a patch for that - even when the fleet is ordered to escape and in passive - evade combat - it gets beaten up again and again...

[Baris]

I have similar experience. In scenarios in which naval power is crucial I think repeated naval battles in the same turn with intercept order is much decisive and have strong outcome. Example: in BOR losing navy means losing the game.

[Franciscus]

Well, historically, fleet losses both in battles (Mylae, Cape Ecnomus, Cape Hermaeum) and due to storms were staggering in the FPW.
It is known that almost all the roman fleet was lost in a storm off Camarina, and Rome had in effect to build a new navy from scratch, which they did...

So, maybe the in-game end results of fleet actions are not so unreslistic ?

Regards

[Baris]

It is quite possible in BOR pbem game that Romans may have to do rebuild their navy from scratch and it did happen in one of my games and still they manage to win. Scenario design is excellent and my feedback was mainly about the power of intercept order and the frequency of the sea battles which may not be related to design.

[steelwarrior77]

Same here - no offense meant - but if it would capture RL then it would be one decisive battle and not up to 10 in two turns (that was the most extreme I experienced - but 8 in two turns seems quite common) - I dunno ;-D My experiences mostly happened in the Marius/Sulla scenario - but naval combat seem to mostly work like this in all scenarios...it also makes the winning admiral god like - due to stat increase and destroys the NM of the loosing navy or ends the game due to massive increase of NM of the winning navy - one time it ended the game due to loss/gain of 40NM in two turns...I dunno ;-D

Two examples - one time I played the Populares and had Sulla at the ropes - I had 5 times his CB and had him surrounded in Italy - just wanted to bring in another small army with my navy - he intercepted it with his navy beating me 8 times in two turns - even though on passive and evade combat - sank it and won the scenario due to more then 150 NM - in that two turns I lost 38 NM and he gained it....
Another exmaple same scenario - me sending a small force with my navy to siege Rhodos - also Optimates intercept - I get beaten 10 times in two turns - fleet sunk and army gone - NM drop 42 from 100 to 58 and the Roman admiral becomes god like - from 6-1-1 to 6-6-7 in this one fleet battle - nearly the end of the scenario and no chance to ever challenge the Roman fleet again with that kind of an admiral...
I am still in shock and awe how one fleet battle can change everything...both times I was winning the scenario - but after it...???

[PJJ]

Naval warfare has always been the weakest part of Ageod's battle mechanics.

It's definitely something that I hope will be improved in future titles - ancient warfare included.

[arsan]

I'm quite surprised, as i have never experienced this kind of problems with sea battles on AJE series.
And i have played a lot both on PBEM and versus the AI.
Of course i've seen weak fleets destroyed or nearly destroyed if cought by a much stronger enemy fleet.
But i've never seen long series of battles between the same fleets on the same turn.
Usually just one or at most two battles before the loser slips away.

Curently i'm playing a HAN 218 PBEM game as the romans and i have the strongest fleet (not by much as CAR as bought lots of ships). We have an interesting cat and mouse naval conflict on the sea between Carthage and Lylibeum where we have our main battle fleets. I patrol with my fleet on offensive+intercept to try to keep his fleet on port and from time to time manage to engage the main Carthage fleet.
Usually i win (corvus quinquerremes really make the difference even when both have similar sized fleets) inflicting 10-15% element losses on him on a single battle before he escapes back to port or elsewhere.

With other minor fleets it's the same: usually just one battle and the next turn the lossing side use to be able to slip away without triggering more battles using passive+evade. Sometimes i use the trick of separating each naval unit on a stack of it's own to make sure that if he intercept only some part of my ships will be engaged.

Not sure why my experience is different... maybe we are more cautious and don't risk many naval moves if we don't have naval superiority....

In any case, even with the intercept order is not easy to keep continous offensive naval patrols on AJE, as after a couple of turns on patrol ships had lost most of it's cohesion and have to return to port to rest. Unless you have a huge naval superiority that allows you to rotate fleets, it's hard to completely rule the seas every turn.

Regards!

[steelwarrior77]

I guess then I am a lucky guy - I experienced it 3 times in 6 games and it was each time game deciding ;-D Just wish, it would not be possible at all...

[Bohémond]

I do find nothing in the game settings that may alter the fleets behaviour, so it is harcoded.

Maybe your Delayed Commitment setting (MainMenu/Options) does have a influence on the fleet behaviour.

Regards

[arsan]

Good point Bohemond!
Maybe it's related with the delayed commitement setting. I always play with at least medium delay.

[Ebbingford]

Baris and I play with the longest delay setting and have also seen these multiple day naval battles.
We think there is something cancelling the retreat of a beaten unit, it then has to face battle all over again and can't retreat from the region.....

[steelwarrior77]

Baris and I play with the longest delay setting and have also seen these multiple day naval battles.
We think there is something cancelling the retreat of a beaten unit, it then has to face battle all over again and can't retreat from the region.....

Yep- just as if they would be a landforce - but it is unrealistic as a naval battle...

[Bohémond]

It can related too to the values of cohesion and cohesion loss battles during for naval models.

As the values seem to give sometimes good results (one bloody battle) or unexpected ones (multiple days naval battles), I do not think values tweaking can be the solution.

Regards

[Baris]

For the intercept order to be successful it may also depend on the scenario: amount of sea regions and the operational capacity of the map. Corvus quinquerremes is indeed strong and it is quite right. That's why after playing BOR scenario 3 times I thought would be better preserve Carthage naval strenght and attack when necessary. Generally in PBEM games it is not good to attack without good odds.

[steelwarrior77]

Yes low cohesion could be part of it - I used each time my fleet to transport units - but cohesion can get low in one turn - so I do not know how to prevent low cohesion, if I use my fleet at all...