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Owl
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Proper Fengtian Clique flag for China (Updated Version in Post #11)

Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:55 am

Improved, historically accurate version in Post #11


Hey,

after enjoying the game for quite some time now I feel that it is time for my first humble submission in this section. I'm currently working on an event pack with various flavor events (though some will have gameplay effects as well) regarding the formation of the Comintern, the Japanese occupation of Sakhalin following the clash with Anarchist forces outside of the area represented by the map, the establishment of the Bavarian Soviet Republic and various other events, but I'll wait and see what the Gold version will change before I'll release that one, so I can make sure that it will be compatible right away!

For now, I will thus release something smaller. This is a small fix that changes the regional flags in China to the correct warlord flag instead of the old Imperial flag. Actually I at first created a version with the Republican flag, but soon realized that this choice was dubious. During the period of the game, Manchuria was controlled by the Fengtian Clique. Their warlord Image was a monarchist though, which I think might have influenced the original choice for the Qing flag. I've now replaced the Imperial flag with the flag used by the military forces of Image:

Image

I might still fix the effect on the flag a little to make it feel more similar to the rest of the flags in the game and also slightly tweak the flag size. I also haven't included a battle resolution screen flag yet, because editing that one without a template is an entirely different beast.

Enjoy!
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andatiep
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Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:01 am

Very nice flag :) .

Probably it will be adopted for the next Gold version if ready soon...

Does anybody could do some research and tell us if the warlord Zhang Zuolin did cooperate with the Russian Whites ? I mean : does he secured and let pass the Russian supply throught its territory or should this territory be Green or neutral faction controlled ?

Because currently, it let pass all the Western power supply from Vladivostok and so it is almost useless for the Red partisans to try to cut the line between Vladivostok and the Zabaikal area...
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Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:02 am

Thanks for the praise, andatiep. Honored to hear that you are thinking about including it. :)

As for the warlord, the wiki article suggests not only uneasy toleration of Japanese troops by the Fengtian Clique, but also mentions the Russian railway going through Manchuria being used during the RCW. There seems to have been some sort of uneasy understanding, though it's difficult to deduct from this the extend of usage the railway and Manchuria saw in the White and Japanese supply considerations. I'll check some sources I have regarding the Japanese intervention tomorrow to see whether I can find anything useful. I'll also check the books referenced in the article next week to see if I'll be able to get a clearer picture.

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Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:11 pm

Very interesting histories :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhang_Zuolin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fengtian_clique
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlord_Era

The Chinese Civil War (1912-1949) should really get its Ageod game, one day.... :neener:

Here we see that Harbin was a Russian White stronghold at the begining of the RCW :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbin#Early_history
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemin_de_fer_de_l%E2%80%99Est_chinois#Guerre_civile_russe_.281917-1922.29

We could then conclude that the Chinese Eastern Railway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Eastern_Railway) should be all White controlled at the start of the Grand campaign. Hold by Russian warlords Semenov and ataman Kalmikov and by the Harbin Russians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbin_Russians). Harbin chineses rgt should even be replaced by Russian White Guards...
I wonder what Zhang_Zuolin controlled at this stage ? The country side ?

Finally, this is the north-Eastern line which was hold by the Reds for a longer time : Khabarovsk falled to the Whites only in september 1918. In fact, the Russian Whites mainly relied on this Chinese Eastern Railway "shortcut" of the Transiberian. I'm going to put more regions as Red controlled in the start of the Grand campaign in this Khabarovsk sector, to slow the Whites offensive. Whites will then have the choice to make it fast if they don't send the Czech in Vladivostok in the West, or to make it slow if they rely only on Semenov and Kalmikov (or wait for the Japanese intervention).

I wonder, at the end, if the Fengtian_clique had a real control of the part of Mandchouria which is on the map. There is this information :"On September 8, 1920, the Chinese Republic announced that it would no longer recognize the Russian consulates in China.", but we need some more to see if from this date, the chinese have a real control of the area, and if the area should be locked and Russian White troops there expelled to Vladivostok or Chita areas.

Someone could get this information, please ? :confused:
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Owl
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Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:40 pm

I absolutely think that it should be made into one one day, too!

Image

As you can see here, the Fengtian Clique controlled Northern Manchuria in 1918.

Image

The first entry in the map legend means Fengtian Clique - they are shown to be in control of Manchuria in 1920 as well.

As for control, I'd say its an interesting matter, since the absence of a strong state on either side of the border during this time probably meant that slipping across the border was relatively easy, indeed, this was something practiced by nomads quite regularly. Also keep in mind that due to the extremly fractured state of China in this time, the Republic exercised de jure authority over all parts of China, but not de facto, instead having to cooperate and tolerate warlords in certain areas, some of them later 'legitimized', others not (Zhang Zuolin being one of the 'legitimized' ones, being the more or less official representative of Republican power in the area). This does not mean that these warlords led internationally recognized states however, as they were considered internal factions of the Republic of China, subsequently foreign affairs matters like the one you mentioned were handled officially by the Chinese government of the Beiyang government. It's another question entirely whether the respective regional warlord decided to act on these announcements. :P

Also, here are some quotes from "Japanese Intervention in the Russian Far East", as I did some research:

"Meanwhile American and Chinese ships were added to those of Japan and England in the harbor. Harbin and Manchuria in general were at that time the centers for the organization of counter-revolutionary forces, grouped about General Horvath, ruler of the Chinese Eastern Railway, and the Atamans Semenov and Kalmykov. Semenov was in control of the station of Manchuria (a city) while the detachments of Kalmykov were already active at the station of Pogranichnaya, carryin on thefts and shootings of peaceful people under the pretext of combating Bolshevism." (P. 5)

The declaration announcing the Allied intervention in Vladivostok was also signed by Col. Paris, then in charge of the Chinese cruiser Hau-Yun.

"The question as to active military intervention was settled, and the governments of the United States, Japan, Great Britain, France, Italy and China - the latter was also dragged in - solemnly addressed the Russian people [...]" (P. 5)

"After the first weeks of the joint occupation of Russian territory by Allied troops, differences between the Americans and the Japanese became quite apparent. The later quite openly declared their intention to hold the railroad in their own hands. [...]and to an agreement between the Allies of March 14, 1919, by virtue of which there was formed an Inter-Allied Railroad Commission, which took it upon itself to 'guard the railroad'. (The Chinese Eastern, the Usuri and the Siberian Railroads are meant.)" (P. 6)

"The Japanese assumed the guardianship over the Transbaikalia [...] and a portion of the Usuri Railroad, which work was carried out jointly with detachments of Russian counter-revolutionaries organized by them. The Americans guarded a portion of the Usuri Railroad [...]" (P. 7)

"On the basis of a military agreement with Japan, in August 1918, China, [...] and the Japanese obtained the legal right to establish themselves on the Chinese Eastern Railroad and to assume the guardianship of the road, and made use of their sojourn there (they held the Chinese Eastern Railway for about two years) to consolidate themselves firmly throughout Northern Manchuria." (P. 7)

On the same page a Japanese encroachment upon further territory in Manchuria is mentioned and an official Japanese government release reprinted, which I can also quote if interest exists.

Mentioning of White Terror by Japan:

"Simultaneously, the Japanese organized the Chinese Khun-Khuzes (bandits) and directed their assault on the Russian population, and together with them engaged in a complete terrorization of the Russian Far East, both in a military and in an economic way." (P. 7)

Regarding the extend of Chinese help for the Allied cause:

"[...]Chinese Eastern Railway, which in accordance with an Inter-Allied agreement must be guarded by Chinese troops, and also by permitting their troops to interfere in railroad matters [...] In Imianpo, a station of the Chinese Eastern Railway, the Japanese shot and killed several Russian railway meN; similar attempts were made in Kahilar, where shots were exchanged between Chinese and Japanese troops." (P. 11)

Interesting to note here is that cooperation seems to not always have gone smoothly, with incidents like these happening as well.

There's also other very interesting information regarding the Soviet-created satellite Far Eastern Republic (which I think is not in the game yet?) and other tidbits of information here and there, which I will present upon further review if needed. All in all I'd say there is a strong case to consider the Fengtian Clique to be in an ambiguous situation between tolerating the White forces and actively collaborating with them at times - Zhang Zuolin was in any case definitely opposed to the Bolsheviks and Allied usage of the territories under his oversight can be verified.

I hope this has helped already!

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Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:51 pm

Some more information regarding the cooperation between the Whites, Japanese and Chinese forces after 1920 and the nature of political control in these areas (again, same publication).

From a telegram by General Oi to the Japanese forces in Khabarovsk: "By order of the War Minister, our aim must be as follows: A place in Manchuria. Irregular and Bolshevist troops must be driven out from the provinces which are to be occupied. [...]and they will scatter in the direction of China." (P. 23)

Situation ca. May 1920: "The Semenov-Kappel troops encamped along the Transbaikal Railroad, leaning upon Manchuria. [...] One or two further efforts of the people, and the entire demoralized White Army withdrew in a panic to Manchuria. [...] The Chinese, whose activities were being constantly watched by the Japanese, insisted on disarming the White Army that had withdrawn to Chinese territory, but the ar,s were delivered to the Japanese and the disarming became a farce." (P. 25)

Here we see that the Chinese policy seems to have become a lot more reserved towards the White cause, but due to the Japanese military presence, they were not able to actually assert effective control - so if anything, we can say that power was sort of divided between the Japanese and Chinese troops. This is further supported on that page, where it states that "the Japanese preferred for the time being to stay in Manchuria", implying already their presence there.

It gets more interesting, since I have concrete evidence for the control of Zhang Zuolin here, even though he is romanized differently in this book.

"The Japanese were at the same time transferring the bandits with the help of Chinese officials and subordinatets of Chang-Tso-lin, the military head of Manchuria." (S. 26)

"The partisans, having approached the Manchurian border, did not continue the pursuit of Semenov's men, as they did not want to fight on foreign territory." (P. 26)

White forces, whether officially tolerated on Manchurian soil by the Fengtian Clique or not, did use the territory for strategic withdrawals. Also keep in mind that the Japanese are still enacting a strong de facto presence in the area as well as control the railway. Semenov states in an order issued by him:

"The Chinese Command [e.g. Zhang Zuolin; Owl] promises definite assistance only in the work of transporting and quartering our families and relatives. The armed forces of the Chinese in the district of Manchuria are also insufficient and unreliable, and we cannot figure on them to cover up our retreat. Therefore, in order to create a precedent [...] and by removing the Chinese from the railroad line to close the frontier to the Reds, it is neccessary in case the situation at the front will compel us to do so, to penetrate as far as possible into the territory of the Chinese Eastern Railroad, avoiding and not taking into considerations the Chinese troops at the frontier." (P. 26) <--- Some parts of the railroad in NW-Manchuria were under effective Fengtian control at this time, with limited cooperation with the Whites only.

I think this gives us some hints. Chinese troops at this point if in play should be locked, as they are purely defensive in terms of assisting in combat and would only defend Chinese territory. There is logistical support by the Fengtian Clique, but relations are strained. There is a strong Japanese presence covering the rest of the railroad.

Semenov goes on to describe further military movement orders, where he is worried about "excesses" on part of the Chinese which are to be prevented through the strong threat created by his own troops in the rear of the Chinese forces. Could it possibly make sense that starting from around mid-1920, there is a check every round whether there has been some miscommunication or non-cooperation between White, Japanese and Chinese forces, locking supply distribution for that turn in the last segments of the railroad or possibly all of it? If it were to trigger in, say, 1/3 of the turns this might already quite nicely simulate the apparently deteriorating security and supply situation in the area.

"The detachments of Semenov's and Kappel's men have been disarmed in Manchuria by agreement between Japan and China. The transfer of some of them who would like to proceed of the territory of the Eastern Chinese Railway and to the Maritime Province should be arranged by direct communications with the Chinese Government and the Provisional Maritime Government." (S. 26)

Here again I think the situation is emphasized: factual control by troops of Zhang Zuolin in the general area, military control of the railway by the Japanese, diplomatic channels through the Chinese government, with Zhang Zuolin acting as their local strongman. Most importantly, it shows that White and Japanese intentions and goals were not always the same, so an event like the one proposed above could simulate that.

A further agreement between the Japanese forces and Semenov from June 8 1921 states:

"The Japanese Command temporarily undertakes to supply the Russian forces with all necessary food and fodder and adopts measures to transport equipment and clothing from Tsindao and the railroad xone of the Chinese Eastern Railroad at Grodekovo. [...] Until permanent order is established in the Far East, the Japanese Command takes upon itself the guarding of the port and of the Fortress of Vladivostok and maintains a control of the lines of the Ussuri and the Chinese Eastern Railroad." (P. 34-35)

Also perhaps a nice decision to include:

"Offer of a Chinese Khun-Khus to the Japanese: We have at our disposal detachments in Nikolsk, at the 89th junction and at the junction Dubinskoye. If you send my address 4000 yen, and 500 poods flour [...], my detachments may be at your disposal on July 25, 1921." (P. 35) The Japanese agreed.

Also, underlining the strong Japanese influence in Manchuria, it is mentioned that during negotiations with the Soviet puppet state of the Far Eastern Republic, their couriers were held up in Manchuria.

And finally a statement by the National Assembly in China from December 9 1921:

"By the "agreement" with China of August 1918 the Japanese received the legal right to fix themselves for a long time on the Chinese Eastern Railway [...] The complicity of the Japanese in the attacks of the Khun-Khuses on the Eastern Chinese Railroad is no secret [...] The Japanese need proofs that the Chinese are unable to protect the railroad and that such protection must therefore be effected by the Japanese, or at least by the "Russian" Semenov men who are in their service. France, which claims her own interest in the CER [...] is not disinclined to help the Japanese. The Japanese have taken pains to create for themselves a favorable situation in Southern Manchuria, and now they have been greatly strengthened in Northern Manchuria too. With the help of the Chinese reactionaries in Manchuria [e.g. Fengtian Clique, keep in mind that Zhang Zuolin was a Monarchist; Owl] the influence of the Japanese grows, this is also the center of the intrigues of the Russian counter-revolutionists who are paid in Japanese coin for their services. Harbin and Manchuria were the centers of the activities of Horvath, Semenov, Kalmykov, and many others. [...] Thus the Chinese Eastern Railway, [...] has finally come into their [Japanese] hands." (P. 37)

A Japanese telegram from September 1921 also mentions that the Russian part of the CER is still under White Russian control.

All in all, this is a very interesting because confusing situation, but if I were to give an overall statement, I would argue that the railroad remained at White disposal, with Chinese and Japanese interests making the reliability of the railroad suffer starting from sometime in 1920. It never seemed to have stopped operations, however. Political control was enacted by the Fengtian Clique, and if you look at the second map, Fengtian control over Manchuria never ceased.

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Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:58 pm

Great informations :D .

In the end, for the game, it means that few months after the Western Allied powers withdraw from Far-East Russia, the Japanese try to rule the theater. But if the Reds are in numerous, they are ready to let the Russian soil in exchange to keep Mandchouria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gongota_Agreement_of_1920)

With the Chinese warlord Zhang Zuolin, they share the aim that Mandchouria should now stay out from the Russian civil war.
We can see that there will be no fights tolerated between White and Red Russian in Mandchouria and that White Russian troops are disarmed if they enter the area at this stage.

I conclude in a simple way :

The Mandchouria area and its railroad should be locked and forbidden to White or Red Russian troops after july 1920. Before this date, it should stay Eastern Russian White controlled.
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Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:27 pm

That does sound good. :) Although of course this means that the transports for the Whites by means of the railroad as guaranteed by the Japanese forces, in game terms this would be supply, will also not be possible, right? Though I guess there are limits regarding what can be portrayed in the engine, and the situation in Manchuria surely was highly unorthodox and cannot be easily represented through the province control system in the game, so abstraction is a given.

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Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:26 am

Owl wrote:That does sound good. :) Although of course this means that the transports for the Whites by means of the railroad as guaranteed by the Japanese forces, in game terms this would be supply, will also not be possible, right? Though I guess there are limits regarding what can be portrayed in the engine, and the situation in Manchuria surely was highly unorthodox and cannot be easily represented through the province control system in the game, so abstraction is a given.


Yes, no supply through Mandchouria after july 1920. I'll set the area as Green before locking it, to be sure.
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Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:05 pm

[s]Having done some research, I've updated this pack. Until 1928, this warlord regime used the flag of the Beiyang government alongside its own flag. As an autonomous warlord, the Clique was formally loyal to the Beiyang government, acting as a representative of the state in the area. Only in 1928, after negotiating a unification with the new Kuomintang government, was the old Republican flag replaced with the new Kuomintang flag, well out of the time frame of the game. As both the Republican flag and the Fengtian flag were used, respectively representing the state and the authority holding power in the area, I've updated the flag to reflect this change. I've also used the opportunity to change the flag size to be in line with the rest of the flags. The state flag is on the top, since the state comes before the local authority, and I've also of course added a second shadow. ;) Region flag has also been updated accordingly. The army marker has not been updated since this is the domain where the military flag of the Clique was definitely the predominant pennant.[/s]

Image

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Tue Jan 28, 2014 4:45 pm

I should probably not have been so quick with that previous post. Turns out, no Chinese sources actually ever reference this flag as a flag of the Fengtian Clique at all. The yellow flag flag was used either be Manchurian or Mongolian autonomists in either the 20s or the 30s, even that isn't absolutely clear, though the colors point towards the former, given their close relation to the ones later used by the Japanese puppet regime in Manchuria. The myth of the Fengtian clique flag seems to have propagated itself on the internet, but it seems extremely likely that the only flag the Fengtian Clique ever used was in fact the old Republican banner, until the unification with the forces of the Kuomintang in 1928 and the subsequent adoption of the new banner. I've reflected that in the file attached to this post.

Image

Although it has cost me a lot of time to change the flags again and again, it also was very interesting to research all this and end up with a surprising result in the end. Guess that shows you the value of doing in-depth research. :)
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The Lev
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Sun Mar 30, 2014 3:00 am

I for one was informed, educated and entertained by this thread-cheers Andatiep & Owl, Always did think there's room for some interesting complexity in the far east-that's the best kind of interesting complexity

Also, it's probably been asked before-but where's the panel with the U on it from Andatiep?

Keep up the good work you two, all the best

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Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:16 am

The Lev wrote:Also, it's probably been asked before-but where's the panel with the U on it from Andatiep?


No, it was not asked before AFAIK ;-)

This picture is from the comics of Hugo Pratt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Pratt), all comics which i advise you to read ;-). Although he did very precised and documented comics with historical background, i can't say if this flag ever existed.
In the comic "Corto Maltese in Siberia" where this picture comes from, it appear like a "personnal battle flag" of the Baron von Ungern-Sternberg when it lead its troops in Mongolia.

But i can't tell you if Hugo Pratt did find the real flag (if there was ever one) and then if it looks really like this.
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Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:00 pm

Nice, it is a rather catching frame

Hah, indeed regarding a large flag with U on it, i suppose Ukraine and, well Ultramarines from Warhammer come to mind-then again the Cyrillic U would look more like a Y, I'm sure some of the warlords, anarchists and adventurers made some rather interesting flags during the war. Nice touch having a giant flag with ones' initial on it for any civil war leader-

Reminds me of that scene in "1911" where the hero rides forward with a banner reading "Here Comes Huang Xing!"

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Owl
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Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:42 pm

Great that you enjoyed the thread, Lev! :) I absolutely agree that complexity can only be good for the Far East - especially if it's an area that is so relatively little explored like this one! If I remember correctly, the clue that ultimately sent me towards the right path in regards to the flag was the Chinese Wikipedia, where there was a discussion about the proper flag as well. Who knows, maybe I'll find some additional interesting information as I'm adding new biographies for leaders active mostly in the Far East.

I actually found the U-flag you were speaking about on a Russian website, though not sure if they perhaps drew it based on what they saw in that same comic - but at least there might be a chance that it's indeed rooted in history:

http://s1.hubimg.com/u/4839632_f520.jpg

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Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:20 am

Owl wrote:Improved, historically accurate version in Post #11


Hey,

after enjoying the game for quite some time now I feel that it is time for my first humble submission in this section. I'm currently working on an event pack with various flavor events (though some will have gameplay effects as well) regarding the formation of the Comintern, the Japanese occupation of Sakhalin following the clash with Anarchist forces outside of the area represented by the map, the establishment of the Bavarian Soviet Republic and various other events, but I'll wait and see what the Gold version will change before I'll release that one, so I can make sure that it will be compatible right away!

Enjoy!


well, how is work on these events going ?

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