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Carnium
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Polish–Soviet War

Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:27 am

I am playing and enjoying RUS after some idle time and have noticed some "strange" things about Polish–Soviet War.
In real time the war was from February 1919 to March 1921, but this scenario only covers it from Kiev offensive in early 1920 until January 1921. Too bad as there is sooo much still to do. Any chance to make it longer one day? At least to late 1921.

A few prominent leaders are missing from this scenario.

Joseph Stalin and Leon Trotsky (Soviets)
Role in the Polish-Soviet War, 1919–1921

After the Bolshevik victory in the Russian Civil War, Poland invaded Ukraine, starting what became known as the Polish–Soviet War, but the Bolsheviks pushed them back into Poland. As commander of the southern front, Stalin was determined to take the Polish-held city of Lviv. This conflicted with the general strategy set by Lenin and Trotsky, which focused on the capture of Warsaw further north.

Trotsky's forces engaged those of Polish commander Władysław Sikorski at the Battle of Warsaw, but Stalin refused to redirect his troops from Lviv to help. Consequently, the battles for both Lviv and Warsaw were lost, and Stalin was blamed. In August 1920, Stalin returned to Moscow, where he defended himself and resigned his military command. At the Ninth Party Conference on 22 September, Trotsky openly criticized Stalin's behaviour.


Among the commanders leading the Red Army in the coming offensive were Leon Trotsky, Tukhachevsky (new commander of the Western Front), Alexander Yegorov (new commander of the Southwestern Front), the future Soviet ruler Joseph Stalin, and the founder of the Cheka (secret police), Felix Dzerzhinsky.


Symon Petliura (Ukraine - allied to Poland)
Petliura withdrew to Poland December 5, 1919, which had previously recognized him as the head of the legal government of Ukraine. In April 1920, as head of the Ukrainian People's Republic, he signed an alliance in Warsaw with the Polish government, agreeing to a border on the River Zbruch and recognizing Poland's right to Galicia in exchange for military aid in overthrowing the Bolshevik regime. Polish forces, reinforced by Petliura's remaining troops (some two divisions), attacked Kiev on May 7, 1920 in what became a turning point of the 1919–21 Polish-Bolshevik war. Following initial successes, Piłsudski's and Petliura's forces were pushed back to the Vistula River and the Polish capital, Warsaw. The Polish Army managed to defeat the Bolshevik Russians, but were unable to secure independence for Ukraine. Petliura directed the affairs of the Ukrainian government-in-exile from Tarnów and when the Soviet Union requested Petliura's extradition from Poland, the Poles engineered his "disappearance," secretly moving him from Tarnów to Warsaw.


All these leaders are in the game which means that this scenario was not revised like the Grand Campaign was.

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ERISS
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Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:04 pm

The Polish counter-attack could succeed too for Budienny had disobey following his Stalin friend. He settled his cavalry to Lviv, far from Warsaw events.
Later Stalin showd learning from his mistake, he let the germans do wrong like he did, as germans divided their forces for Stalingrad sending their armored cavalry far on another front to the North set by Stalin. But maybe this strategical trap was not really wanted by Stalin lol, he may had just do his divided 2 fronts strategy he liked.

Solemnace
Corporal
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Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:39 pm

Symon Petliura is in the scenario if you take Kiev he'll appear with a few Ukrainian Divisions after a while if you hold it long enough. It's some kind of % chance after a set date.

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andatiep
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Location: Grenoble, France.

Fri May 03, 2013 2:32 pm

Carnium wrote:I am playing and enjoying RUS after some idle time and have noticed some "strange" things about Polish–Soviet War.
In real time the war was from February 1919 to March 1921, but this scenario only covers it from Kiev offensive in early 1920 until January 1921. Too bad as there is sooo much still to do. Any chance to make it longer one day? At least to late 1921.


I suppose you can always continue to play even after january 1921. No ?

About the start of the Polish-Soviet war : yes, there were a situation of war from february 1919, but have a look on the Poland activities during the year 1919 : it is at war with almost all its neighborhood to fix its borders in the strong way (against Czech, Ukrainians, Baltics..). And it also had to build and organize its new state and army with the Allied (mostly French) support. So that's why it is designed that Poland would probably not start a big war against Russia (White or Red) to fix its eastern borders before early 1920.


Carnium wrote:A few prominent leaders are missing from this scenario.
Joseph Stalin and Leon Trotsky (Soviets)


Well, Trotsky was not on the battlefield as a commanding leader that could be simulated in the game as an army leader during all the RCW. During this campaign, he "stayed in Moscow".

Same for Stalin who was not commanding officially the South Front in the Soviet-Polish war but was actually in charge of administration in Karkhov in Ukraine.... it is from there that he was de facto commanding Budienny (its political puppet) to stay not far from Ukraine and to not go further than Lvov in Poland.

Stalin was claiming that it need troops in Ukraine to face Wrangel in Crimea.

This roles will be simulated in the next patch for the 3 campaign scenarios. And i will have a look on this scenario too. :)


Look at book like "The Red Army, 1918-1941: From Vanguard of World Revolution to Us Ally". It explain the military role of Stalin during the RCW. (i can send it to you if you wish)
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Carnium
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Location: Slovenia

Sat May 25, 2013 5:45 pm

andatiep wrote:I suppose you can always continue to play even after january 1921. No ?



Hello and sorry for the late reply. Are you the author of the RSs scenarios? Amazing work, thanks a lot :w00t:
Polish-Russian war could be prolonged a bit as some of us like to play scenarios only till the "official" end. It would be cool to have a bit more time - so please consider making it longer.

Found that book in pdf format on the net, thanks for the tip ;)

Any ETA on the next patch and new features?

Jagger2013
General of the Army
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Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:14 am

Sun Dec 15, 2013 5:13 pm

I have been playing the Polish-Russian scenario as my major learning scenario. Playing both sides and experimenting with game.

I am wondering if the AI can be improved for the Polish. Typically I am not seeing a Polish offensive towards Kiev. Sometimes I can provoke a Polish attack in the south by sending cavalry into Poland but not unusual to see no offensive at all towards Kiev while sometimes seeing a meaningless offensive from Minsk into Russia. When I play the Poles, I attack all out trying to take Kiev from day 1 while playing defense around Minsk combined with maybe some delaying offensive northern activity. Just the opposite of what the AI attempts as the Poles.

I have had a lot of fun with the scenario and learned a lot about the game but wondering if the AI can be tweaked for the Poles?

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andatiep
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Location: Grenoble, France.

Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:55 pm

Jagger2013 wrote:I have had a lot of fun with the scenario and learned a lot about the game but wondering if the AI can be tweaked for the Poles?


Noted. Thanks Jagger2013 :) .

For the next RUS patch/upgrade, in the 3 campaign scenarios, as well as in the Polish-Russian war scenario, the Red and Polish AI will now be supposed to focus on this 4 historical objectives of this war : Minsk, Kiev, Ekaterinoslav and kharkov. This should help the AI to deal with the fact that the Reds will lose -1 NM and -10 VP each turns they don't controlle each of this regions.

PS : i planed to use this kind of code (Any AI skilled devs/modders are welcomed to confirme or propose other/better solutions) :

Code: Select all

         [TABLE]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]RED[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]evt_nam_RED_AIcareKiev[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]StartEvent[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]29[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]Conditions[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]CheckAILevel[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]1[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]MinDate[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]1920/01/01[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]Actions[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]AI.SetLocalInterest[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]$Kiev|200[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]EndEvent[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
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Carnium
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Location: Slovenia

Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:15 am

For more objectives in scenarios use this:
http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/AI_Agents

I am slowly learning, but having a blast with it ;)
[ATTACH]25986[/ATTACH]
Attachments
AIA.jpg

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andatiep
Posts: 1429
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Location: Grenoble, France.

Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:47 am

So it looks like i can also add a "AI.SetAggro" line for the area of Bielorussia and for the theater of Ukraine :neener: :

Code: Select all

        [TABLE]
                                        [TR]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]AI.SetAggro[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]$Theater_Ukraine|200|$Area_Minsk|200[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]AI.SetLocalInterest[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]$Kiev|500[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
    [/TR]
 [/TABLE]
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Carnium
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Location: Slovenia

Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:51 am

andatiep wrote:So it looks like i can also add a "AI.SetAggro" line for the area of Bielorussia and for the theater of Ukraine :neener: :

[/CODE]


It should/could work yes. I am just a newbie in this you know ;)

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Bohémond
Posts: 2799
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Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:46 am

andatiep wrote:So it looks like i can also add a "AI.SetAggro" line for the area of Bielorussia and for the theater of Ukraine :neener: :

Code: Select all

        [TABLE]
                                        [TR]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]AI.SetAggro[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]$Theater_Ukraine|200|$Area_Minsk|200[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]AI.SetLocalInterest[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]$Kiev|500[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
       [TD="bgcolor: #FFFF00"][color=#800000]NULL[/color][/TD]
    [/TR]
 [/TABLE]



AISetAggro can only have Theater as TheaterUID parameter not Area, see ;

http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/AI.SetAggro


Regards
Marco, perché vai così forte in salita?» «Per abbreviare la mia agonia.

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andatiep
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 10:56 am
Location: Grenoble, France.

Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:46 pm

Bohémond wrote:AISetAggro can only have Theater as TheaterUID parameter not Area, see ;

http://www.ageod.net/agewiki/AI.SetAggro


Regards


OK, thanks. :confused:

The example was yet confusing :

Set the 'aggresion' of the AI in Area New England at 200

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Jagger2013
General of the Army
Posts: 641
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:14 am

Mon Dec 23, 2013 6:06 pm

As the Reds, late Oct and throughout Nov, I have had the option to choose partial mobilization. Choose the option three turns in a row and it won't fire. I have huge sums of money and EP and partial mobilization worked earlier in the game for both Poles and Reds but not working now.

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andatiep
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Joined: Thu May 01, 2008 10:56 am
Location: Grenoble, France.

Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:59 am

Jagger2013 wrote:As the Reds, late Oct and throughout Nov, I have had the option to choose partial mobilization. Choose the option three turns in a row and it won't fire. I have huge sums of money and EP and partial mobilization worked earlier in the game for both Poles and Reds but not working now.


OK, i saw where it comes from. The scenario currently limit the regeneration of this option to 8 times in the game.

I'll remove this limitation (or explain it in the option's tooltip if not) in the next patch/upgrade of RUS.
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