AI thread

[Clovis]

if you have any remark about AI, improvment suggestions, or you want to point out poor moves, please post in this thread.

We are commited to offer the best AI in each of its game and we're hoping RUS AI to be yet better than AGE AI in the past.

To help when posting, please tell too which are your AI settings and possibly upload 2 files:

- the ai log file in the RUS/log directory
- the ScriptReport in the RUS /Script directory.

[Clovis]

Some AI imporvments have been done since the last weeks. So if you want to try them in the demo, just:

- download this rar file
- do a backup of the RUS/events directory
- unrar the archive in the RUS/events directory

These files shouldn't cause any harm, I'm playing without any trouble, but just in case backup first to revert to original files if needed

[tagwyn]

How can I see any improvements when I can't buy the flaming game yet? t

[Rafiki]

Tag, the demo has been released: http://ageoddl.telechargement.fr/latest/RUS_Demo.zip

[Clovis]

New version of the AI to be uploaded here. Unrar the archive in the RUS/Events folder.They work fine, but backup the original folder.

It will be the AI version of the release.Therewere 2 major features we haven(t had time to implement for the demo. And they work pretty well...

[von Sachsen]

It will be the AI version of the release.Therewere 2 major features we haven(t had time to implement for the demo. And they work pretty well...

Out of curiosity, what?

[Clovis]

Out of curiosity, what?

No comment . I will never expose what has been done, secrecy being a terrific AI weapon

Sorry

[Clovis]

Just remembering you this thread for remarks about AI failures, rather than dispersed among other threads

[Baris]

Made requsition too much I guess from Stavropol , Peasants revolted with 40000 green men. I dont know is it AI specific topic but Green armies tend to split forces and out of supply quickly. As playing with SB whites reds are not offensive yet, so maybe Green armies can be more stronger or concentrated,challanging. As they are peasants they should not get out of supply quickly. Balance factor is they are mostly militia with supply wagons. In the battle I was defeated but peasants decided to move out the region. Split in the next turn. Edit: Maybe when they revolted, should have few more line inf with them.

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Also Red partisans appear in Abakan region never make it through north, they diseappear in some time.

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Edit: I didnt make it to the end of campaign yet but İf green armies more threating player will be less inclined for requisiton. Maybe some kind of supply rule is necessary for green armies without reaching engine limits.
when they revolt in level 1 city and if they reach big number they die faster even with supply wagons. It will be more challanging if they remain to be problem say 6-7 turns if the revolt was big. In addition revolted peasants can have low chance to have a leader. I think this revolt mechanic is the best part in the game and big potential for having random games.
Edit2: Revolted peasants(green) can have a leader that maintains %25 less supply consumption. Or the militias have that ability.

Edit 3: Thanks Clovis, Im glad with AI, game is not won yet, I will prepare my Cossacks for advance

[Clovis]

1) Far Eastern Siberia hasn't got all the AI treatment she deserves. The last weeks have unfortunatly forced me to fix general bugs and I've not had the time to adress this. Soon I will do something.

2) Green: yes they're peasants; so they're doomed to be defeated . They were very poorly equipped and organized except in a few cases and revolts remained very local, as peasants didn't wanted to leave their home. Giving them supply depots would be too much. I agree howewer we should have to look further in the next weeks about green impact and possible changes. For myself, I'm taking note of your points.

For the rest, the situation is very close to the historical one. Southern Whites have taken Tzaritsyn and you're a little more West but your Achille heal seems to be conscripts. We'll see if Reds may win over you by attrition, even if Reds losses are high and morale low for now. In any case, I feel 1.01 to be really very close of the perfect balance of gameplay at least for 1918.

Thanks for the report.

[TheDoctorKing]

Basically the Greens hang out where they first appear. Sometimes, they march on the provincial capital but pretty much any regular troops are enough to keep them out. They interfere with supplies and cause trouble but aren't an existential threat to either party. If you attack them, even if you are outnumbered 2:1 or more, with decent luck you can smash them.

This is perfectly fine and WAD as far as I'm concerned. The Greens are a hassle but not a threat. You can control the amount of hassle they are by not requisitioning. You can sometimes inflict them on your enemy by subversion (if Red) or requisitioning heavily in provinces you are about to lose (sneaky move for both parties, seems legit though). Requisitioning heavily in your border provinces helps build a "wall" of Green guys that both sides have to go through to be active on that front. This helps the defender, thus the Reds in 1918-1919 and the Whites 1919-21.

[Silber]

...In any case, I feel 1.01 to be really very close of the perfect balance of gameplay at least for 1918.

Of course if there is human on the opposite side :>

In other cases it might feel like quite short scenario - like on this ol' photo


Revolution collapsed before it sprawled for good.


Shouldn't there be some Military-influence spread from owned cities in region and superior forces of leaders towards aligned provinces so you could gain military control without entering every single province? (for example for owning all cities in region you could gain +10% of Military Control in every province being part of that region? - and if that's a leader of some great army applies to provinces neighboring the province that the army is in.

[Baris]

You can sometimes inflict them on your enemy by subversion (if Red) or requisitioning heavily in provinces you are about to lose (sneaky move for both parties, seems legit though). Requisitioning heavily in your border provinces helps build a "wall" of Green guys that both sides have to go through to be active on that front. This helps the defender, thus the Reds in 1918-1919 and the Whites 1919-21.

This is interesting.But doesnt sound good. It prevents punishment for side who made requisition. Maybe defeating Green armies should give replacement or concripts to the other side to prevent gamey usage.

Shouldn't there be some Military-influence spread from owned cities in region and superior forces of leaders towards aligned provinces so you could gain military control without entering every single province? (for example for owning all cities in region you could gain +10% of Military Control in every province being part of that region? - and if that's a leader of some great army applies to provinces neighboring the province that the army is in.

Yes military control doesnt increase even there is a fort and big army in the neighbouring region. MC designed as region level. it should be better if MC implemented area level. %5 or %10 bonus would be good.

[Clovis]

Of course if there is human on the opposite side :>

In other cases it might feel like quite short scenario - like on this ol' photo


Revolution collapsed before it sprawled for good.


Shouldn't there be some Military-influence spread from owned cities in region and superior forces of leaders towards aligned provinces so you could gain military control without entering every single province? (for example for owning all cities in region you could gain +10% of Military Control in every province being part of that region? - and if that's a leader of some great army applies to provinces neighboring the province that the army is in.

could you post the save? I would take a look. and what were the AI settings too?The RedAi seems to have much more trouble to stand afterthe first year and I'm yet searching why... Initially I was convinced White AI would be weaker...There's a sort of sickness of the Red AI in the GC i would like to cure. For that, I need data

[Anazagar]

Yes military control doesnt increase even there is a fort and big army in the neighbouring region. MC designed as region level. it should be better if MC implemented area level. %5 or %10 bonus would be good.

I always thought that "radiating" MC might be an idea worth considering. You know like big armies, fortesses and big towns would slowly spread MC to neighbouring regions.

[Clovis]

I've found a bug in the AI file explaining maybe why AI moved too much during winter and kept armies around enemy positions too long. Not tried yet though, it remains to be confirmed.

edit: I've made some changes to the way AI used economical options too. If the files can't be integrated in the next patch, I will upload them asap.

edit2: I discovered too the RED AI was losing 1NM by turn because of alliance with Anarchist Athena signed too soon and too often. Fixed

[TheDoctorKing]

This is interesting.But doesnt sound good. It prevents punishment for side who made requisition. Maybe defeating Green armies should give replacement or concripts to the other side to prevent gamey usage.

The punishment for the side that did the requisition is that someday you are going to want to go back there.

In my current game, I held on to Orsk, so I exploited the heck out of them. Result, after a few months, Red support level is down to 4% and I hold only the city of Orsk. There are dozens of Green units all over the place. Now, I'm about to 'pop the cork' at Orenburg and connect up my Turkestan front with the rest of Sovdepia. And now I have to take out all those little Green spots. I was expecting that the White Cossacks would run me out but I guess they had better things to do...so I am hoist with my own petard.

[Silber]

could you post the save? I would take a look. and what were the AI settings too?The RedAi seems to have much more trouble to stand afterthe first year and I'm yet searching why... Initially I was convinced White AI would be weaker...There's a sort of sickness of the Red AI in the GC i would like to cure. For that, I need data

I made this photo like week ago and in the meanwhile I purged all the files (it aches me when the drive space is wasted :P) - I had large amount of those save files anyway I just though that some players are better than others ;-) so I didn't bothered with that :P ...maybe next time I'll remember to keeps all the saves but this time I'll try to get Moscow by the April 1919 :> (I lost those 2 months for conquering Caucasus (Kavkaz?) ...couldn't resit getting Stalin :> (got him encircled near Tsaritzin and squashed with massive Siberian-White version of Konarmiya :>)

Difficulty setting was iirc standard/default.

(I kept the photo for reference to improve in further games ;-) )

[Clovis]

I made this photo like week ago and in the meanwhile I purged all the files (it aches me when the drive space is wasted :P) - I had large amount of those save files anyway I just though that some players are better than others ;-) so I didn't bothered with that :P ...maybe next time I'll remember to keeps all the saves but this time I'll try to get Moscow by the April 1919 :> (I lost those 2 months for conquering Caucasus (Kavkaz?) ...couldn't resit getting Stalin :> (got him encircled near Tsaritzin and squashed with massive Siberian-White version of Konarmiya :>)

Difficulty setting was iirc standard/default.

(I kept the photo for reference to improve in further games ;-) )

Thanks in any case, it will always give me useful info to tweak quicker the AI

I believe a part of the problem was tied with the low Morale level Red AI got by using too much of the alliance with Anarchist options. In Baris game, RED AI is at 77 NM during Winter 18-19 and this very low level is diminushing Combat proficiency of the military units and production levels. And the loss of 1 NM by turn woulsd repeat in the following turn, so in June 19RED NM would be around 70, and certainly less yet because of lresults of battle lost because of this low moral....

We'll see if the next patch strenghtens the Red AI in GC.

[ERISS]

I believe a part of the problem was tied with the low Morale level Red AI got by using too much of the alliance with Anarchist options.

I think the Allying Anarchists option should cost Engagement Points rather than National Morale:

Actually I think the reverse of the present way is the good cost: The Red army morale droped down when they had to fight anarchists or makhnovists, not when they allied with. Bolsheviks had to support the Red army with many Tcheka in order the army fire upon the Black.

The Red army agree firing upon the Blacks only if the Army was confident in the Bolsheviks. The Bolsheviks had to lie to their people in order they fire upon the Blacks: That's the huge propaganda and Engagement Points job.

[Baris]

(I lost those 2 months for conquering Caucasus (Kavkaz?) )

Depends on language but also can be called "Kafkas".


Early turns of the campaign Red forces was chased by southern white main army and then end up Ekaterinoder region(Trotsky forces in it). Without sieging or try to take city they marched after red detachments and end up in Novorovski harbour. Their harbour is blocked by Red battleships and north of the harbour is swamps. It is minor thing but if their force got destroyed, white armies will be very weakened. I though that AI priority of Novorovski should be weakened. As it is isolated city.
other thing is Kazan city is difficult for AI to get it. I blocked 3 passage ways with ships so big siberian white army decided to march other objective city "Ufa" It was good choice but I think it will be better for AI to use or construct little more ships. As currently AI can blockade major river crossings, it will be more helpful for AI to engage river combat and to open blocked rivers.

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[ERISS]

I think (but that's a loose idea as I badly know the game), Red diplomacy with anarchists should be something like:

Declare peace: EP -1, MN +2
then EP -1 per turn (anarchists undermining bolsheviks ideas, and no power want to deal with who allies anarchists)

Declare war: EP +1, MN -1
then MN -1 per turn (people don't understand well why they should kill revolutionnaries)

So, that's a dilemna for Reds.

[Clovis]

Depends on language but also can be called "Kafkas".


Early turns of the campaign Red forces was chased by southern white main army and then end up Ekaterinoder region(Trotsky forces in it). Without sieging or try to take city they marched after red detachments and end up in Novorovski harbour. Their harbour is blocked by Red battleships and north of the harbour is swamps. It is minor thing but if their force got destroyed, white armies will be very weakened. I though that AI priority of Novorovski should be weakened. As it is isolated city.
other thing is Kazan city is difficult for AI to get it. I blocked 3 passage ways with ships so big siberian white army decided to march other objective city "Ufa" It was good choice but I think it will be better for AI to use or construct little more ships. As currently AI can blockade major river crossings, it will be more helpful for AI to engage river combat and to open blocked rivers.

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Ekaterinburg: indeed SIb AI has a tendancy to ignore This objective in the 1.01. I normally fixed that one week ago for the 1.01a. But I haven't yet tried deeply the fix so we'll see soon if it works. Thanks for the report.

[Clovis]

I think (but that's a loose idea as I badly know the game), Red diplomacy with anarchists should be:

Declare peace: EP -1, MN +2
then EP -1 per turn (anarchists undermining bolsheviks ideas, and nobody want to deal with who allies anarchists)

Declare war: EP +1, MN -1
then MN -1 per turn (people don't understand well why they should kill revolutionnaries)

So, that's a dilemna for Reds.

Not replying, but listening

[ERISS]

Not replying, but listening

Thank you. Just an idea again:
To remove the dilemna, Red had to remove the anarchist political influence (eradicate ALL their propaganda). Maybe the red malus for peace or war with anarchists should stop by an event "At last Bolsheviks vanquished anarchist white banditry!" (Trotsky style lol) when ALL the main anarchist club town centers are occupied for 2 turns by the Reds (GuliayPolie, Kharkov, Kiev, Elizavetgrad, Odessa (Ukraine), and Kursk, Kronstadt, Moscow, Petrograd (easy in Russia), and maybe Kazan?, Mourmansk??
(A thread for this topic?)
Maybe they don't need all these towns, and bolsheviks slanders could be enough, with Rubles put in propaganda.

[andatiep]

This is interesting.But doesnt sound good. It prevents punishment for side who made requisition. Maybe defeating Green armies should give replacement or concripts to the other side to prevent gamey usage.

I think (but that's a loose idea as I badly know the game), Red diplomacy with anarchists should be something like [...]

Nice ideas...

[Clovis]

AI further work is available here

http://struggleformodding.wordpress.com/2010/12/23/rus-ai-mod-v2/

http://struggleformodding.wordpress.com/about/

[Baris]

Playing as sb white(start again), at turn 9 or 10 some relatively historical green men under Macha-Bek , Nurata Tadzhiks. They stay in the region and dont attack or neither move in any turn. It is ok Greens can be passive but not a move.

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and In Volga Front Red AI a little passive about railroads control with trains. But I loaded as Reds and it looks like Red have very few men. Only Trotski army with 15000 or 20000 men while SIB white have railroads under control and 50000 or 60000 men. I saw a 1 river battle in Volga but that was it. I wasnt sure as it is AI related but Reds have very few men on that front(At early turns and scenario start.). Now red has 95 NM while SIB has 110 or 115.

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Edit:In the North Biggest Red army moving to intercept Small green force(It is not a strategic city)
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[TheDoctorKing]

I'm noticing in my game that the Whites, who built tanks in the Kuban starting back in July, 1919, have yet to put them into combat. They are wandering around in the central Kuban and don't seem to have made up their minds if they want to go up to the Don to help out their buddies (under a lot of pressure right now), go up the rail line to Tsaritsyn, or go southeast to attack the Red lines in the eastern Caucasus. I also notice that they are moving apparently alone. These guys are really the key to breaking the Red "fortified lines" and "redoubts" that are popping up everywhere.

[TheDoctorKing]

Oh, and in the screenshot above, I noticed that the Red admiral Raskolnikov is running about on land. Why isn't he in command of those Red riverboats?