Unit pool capacity imbalance (Red)

[DarkGarry]

There is an imbalance in unit pool capacity (checked for Red only so far). It means that with current level of money income Red army will reach maximum strength even before the middle game (before turn 40 out of 86).

Let's calculate APPROXIMATELY total possible game income for Red.
Starting (80), per turn (30 per turn x 86 turns = 2580), Gold train (300),
Requisitions (about 105 money per requisition, 6 at once, every 4 turns), so about 630 every 4 turns, total possible 86/4 = 21 requisition, total income from requisitions 13230.

We didn't printed money at all to prevent inflation in this calculation.
Grand total income 16190.

Now let's calculate unit cost for all available brigade types. I'll exclude Militia, ships, supplies, engineers, comissars and all artillery except heavy, siege and battery from calculation.

Below is table for brigade types (I - infantry, C - Cavalry, A - Artillery, t - tachankas M - Money, N - Number available)

I 2I 4IA 4ICA 5ICA 5IA 3IA 3ICA 2I 3I C 4CA Car A A C
M 4 13 23 28 32 27 19 24 8 12 5 27 10 20 15 6
N 74 5 26 (4) 20 10 18(2) 20 20 30 19(1) 9(1) 4 20 10 30 8


When Tcheka available
I 2I 3IA
M 5 2 12
N 50 30 20

When Proletary on Horse (Cavalry brigades) available
4CAT 3CAT
M 46 38
N 10 12

When later conscripts available (somewhere after turn 40?)
I 4IA 4ICA 5ICA 5IA 3ICA
M 4 24 30 34 28 26
N 80 15 10 10 10 10

Batteries and tachankas
4A t
M 44 4
N 15 60

If calculate total army cost (MxN) = 8618
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So conclusion: The army pool for Red is 2 times smaller than they can potentially earn, that severely limits growth of Red army.

When Reds played carefully, not agressively - they will Max their army(all essentlal brigades built) before turn 40.
The consecuence is that Whites can OVERPRODUCE reds, because Cap of Red pool is set too low - it is not historical.

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I suggest to increase Max number of brigades available from the beginning by 30-50%. That will allow Red army to grow consistently without hitting the Cap in the middle game.

[le Anders]

After the first five or so turns, my Reds generally get between 21 and 26 rubles, not 30 per turn. It's also a major assumption that the Reds get the Gold Train.

[DarkGarry]

Sure - calculation is approximate. The difference would be like 80x5 = -400. If not getting Gold train -300. So total would be like 15500.

I was calculating Cap - maximum possible money amount. I understand that Red need to increase Railroad capacity(100), hire Elite (30), hire Cossacks like once or twice a year (30), of course need to get replacement for battles(depends on battle intencity) and Desertions.

Historically Reds amassed army about 1.5 times greater than whites and pushed them into defeat. Here there is a problem to AMASS because of limited pool.

[DarkGarry]

Actually Armoured trains were excluded from calculation. Their building is Supply-expensive for Reds. That bring another balance alternative - increase Supplies output for Reds (probably in Moscow, Petersbourg, Tula) by 50%. That will allow building of Armoured trains more easily and will improve balance I think.

Currently 60 heavy armoured trains, 110 Light trains... is probably way too much - Red don't have so much supply to build units that can't be added to divisions(and cause command penalty as a result) in such quantities.

[ERISS]

Requisitions (about 105 money per requisition, 6 at once, every 4 turns), so about 630 every 4 turns, total possible 86/4 = 21 requisition, total income from requisitions 13230.

Money is not all, bolsheviks had to slow requisitions and make the NEP, to not being overwhelmed by 'anarchists' in strongholds and towns (Kronstadt ring the bell) and mainly greens in countryside.
If you take all the money you can (like a state capitalist you are lol), you should loose, but it is an interesting game challenge.

[lodilefty]

Do your available unit numbers include any ForcePool increases?

There are events in 1918, 1919 and 1920 that increase all forcepools....

[DarkGarry]

Yes. Pool increases are included. Overall current balance looks not that bad, if we take Armoured trains into account. But here is a pitfall - Reds are short of Supply to produce all that trains. May be add more supply for reds? Like generate a bit more per turn, or get more from Murmansk and Archangelsk, or more supply from Requisitions.

TO ERISS: Reds can alternate Requisitions with Tcheka missions for every region while they have enough NM to pay for Tcheka.

[Narwhal]

Honest question : What is the design rationale behind forcepool when you have a manpower pool anyway ? To me, both seems to do the same job. Forcepool is logical for me in AJE because there is no MP, but I don't see the point if you have already a manpower limit.

I don't understand why I can build only that much of a given type of say infantry (say - units with 2 elements of infantry), and then I need to switch to another type (units with 3 elements of infantry) due to an arbitrary limit. If the Red had the available manpower and the need wouldn't they have tried to build even more divisions of infantry ?

The only two justifications I can find is that

- it shows how much units the economy can sustain (since I don't remember there is a maintenance cost in RUS), but even then, it is a poor proxy (and then you should be able to choose more infantry and less cav for instance).
- for Whites, it forces the player to balance its built between say Don and Southern Whites, or Siberian / North / NorthWestern, instead of putting all the MP (generated by all faction) into building ONE nationality of unit for simplification purposes. But clearly this does not apply to Reds (but once you use this trick to the Whites, you have to play it with the Reds as well if you want to be fair) and even with the limitation, I never felt the use to build anything else than Southern White / Siberian White infantry only.

One example of an historical issue solved by forcepool for the Reds that could not be by the other resources (money, WSU, MP) would be enough to convince me of its use.


Also, your calculation is not taking into account the fact that the Red is most probably going to lose units and buy and large amount of replacements.

[DarkGarry]

There is no maintenance costs in RUS. Units only have to consume Supply (means food and water) and Ammo when fighting. If Reds can build ANY number of ANY division they will build only MAMMOTH size brigades like 4 infantry 1 Cavalry 1 Arty so their divisions will be pumped to about 50k size EACH. I think it would be a hard time for Whites - but that point deserves fair amount of field testing.

>>One example of an historical issue solved by forcepool for the Reds that could not be by the other resources (money, WSU, MP) would be enough to convince me of its use.

The number of divisions that can be supported is limited by
- Amount of man that can be drafted (man pool)
- Amount of weapon and ammunition to arm divisions available
- Pool of commanding officers(both low and high rank) to command <-- this may be example you asked for