marcusjm wrote:Becides, if you take large population centers like NYC, then you will in fact find quite many who have a living memory of this (if you count all the subsequent consequences as well). Not forgetting the sizeable Jewish community where many have ties to these areas. Unlike what some claimehttp://www.ageod-forum.com/newrep ... &p=185499d, many Jews also had to flee from Red terror, it struck against all ethnic groups.
I am quite sure that all ACW veterans are dead by now .
Charles wrote:I dont see how what you base yourself to reason that the Nazis would never have existed if the Soviets had not come to power.
The Nazi party was born out of a frustation over the very harsh terms of the Versailles treaty, the economic instability of the 20s and 30s and the weakness of the postwar German democratic government.
Even without a Soviet victory in the RCW, Hitler would almost probably have come to power and wanted to expand into the East to gain lebensraum.
Charles wrote:The Nazis received very few votes until the great depression started in 1929, they were then able to hammer home the message about the failure of capitalism, the weakness of democratic government and the need for a strong leader.
The presence or not of a Soviet government in another country was a non factor. People choose governments because of internal domestic issues, not because of who may or may not be in power in another country.
Left leaning governments were still elected in western democracies during the height of the cold war. According to your theory of the predominance of the external threat, it should only be right leaning conservative governments.
Baris wrote:Im not so sure about this "obscure" period in history only known by wargamers or eastern europeans. As well as said Paris Commune(I forget it:bonk and some interpretation of social democracy by northern europe plus some political parties influenced by social democracy or marx's studies, it looks it has wider influence and knowledge in Europa.
Michael More made a film about "capitalism". It was mainly critizing capitalism and some faults on the system in Usa. But in the end he was telling that unlike Italy or Germany, by ignoring social democracy resulted some bad social problems in Usa like health care or education. His opinion ofcourse.
But it looks like N. America knows better about ACW than RCW, some government cencor involved I guess.
I have read before about some research been made by Oxford University about capitalism and communism. Research was concluding that these mixtures of different system was forming another system called "social democracy". I hope it is more known than ACW.
Raptor1 wrote:Of course it had extensive influence, but being influential and obscure are not mutually exclusive. Do note that I'm not saying the Revolution itself is an obscure topic, just the Civil War that followed it.
In either case, the Russian Civil War is certainly obscure when it comes to computer wargaming, as there hasn't really been a single game that depicted it so far.
Raptor1 wrote:Of course it had extensive influence, but being influential and obscure are not mutually exclusive. Do note that I'm not saying the Revolution itself is an obscure topic, just the Civil War that followed it.
In either case, the Russian Civil War is certainly obscure when it comes to computer wargaming, as there hasn't really been a single game that depicted it so far.
Baris wrote:But why in other parts of Europa there was no communist practices? I wonder why in Russia?
Raptor1 wrote:There was, in fact, sort of. After WWI Soviet Republics cropped up all over Europe, in places such as Alsace, Bavaria, Hungary and Slovakia. All of these were eventually put down by anti-communists or by foreign intervantion (Such as the Hungarian Soviet Republic being dismantled by Romania).
marcusjm wrote:Hungary and Chechoslovakia were and are very developed. The Laser was after all invented in Hungary . The Chech industry was top of the line in Europe.
I do not know the politics of those areas though.
But one can always play Hearts of Iron to get an idea .
As for Germany, my personal recommendation would be to read about Rosa Luxemburg, or even see the movie if you can find it. I should add that while Communists and Socialists were and are strong Germany in general has always been fairly conservative but these were extreme times and benefitted extreme parties.
caranorn wrote:But the Revolution(s) in Germany were put down before the Russian Civil War. And I don't think the Russian revolution per-se (February or October) was a large enough scare to affect the German Revolution. By the start of the RCW Luxemburg, Liebknecht and many Spartakists were long dead...
marcusjm wrote:What I am trying to explain, is that the Communist Party was in fact stronger in Germany than Russia. Without a bad precedent then a Communist takeover was FAR more likely. You can read up on this from many good sources of analysis.
You can read just about any analysis you can find and it all leads to the same conclusion. NSDAP took power because of fear of Bolsheviks, all the other factors were less important. Just about the whole Mein Kampf is about how bad Communism is and how the Jews manipulate everything and so forth.
How could he have written any of that without a Russian revolution? Look at WHEN this book was written. Good timing if you wan't maximum effect.
Just so this doesn't go on forever can we all at least agree on this and then go on to other things? Let's face it, what if:s are hard to prove or measure. The famed Buttefly effect doesn't come close to the historical nudge this would have meant.
- Can we all agree that the 20th century would have looked radically different had the outcome of the Russian revolution been different? Hitler or no Hitler.
- Can we also agree that the event itself was epic in proportions and had a huge impact? Remember that this topic came forth due to some claiming that this was some obscure event, hardly ,
At least the Cold War would have been damn hard to repeat .
Baris wrote:as the wind more calm I can ask more questions
About Germany becoming a Communist regime, or preventing from it?
A good Aristocracy?
With the exception of Checkoslovakia, was Marx's foresight was wrong? about the industrialized nations as London or Paris will be the first communist nations?
China,Russia,Yugoslavia(regards to Tito)Korea and lastly Cuba, what they have in common?
There was a documentary about "Fears" in BBC. It was mainly talking about communism Fear which is unnecessary for some western society. maybe there is more gain from it
Charles wrote:Wherever Communists took power, Russia, China, Vietnam, Yugoslavia and Cuba, it was because they were better organised and armed than their opponents. It was more of a coup than a Revolution. In Eastern Europe and North Korea, the regime was installed by the Red Army.
In Germany, the plotters were too weak and the Army too strong.
Marx's theories are not a practical guide to communist revolutions, it is a critique of capitalist society. It is flawed since he based himself on conditions as they existed in the mid 19th century which he extrapolated to its logical conclusions. He failed to realize that capitalist governments would offer a counter-weight in the form of social programs which would prevent conditions from ever reaching Marx's conclusions.
marcusjm wrote:It's easy to forget that Russia had their own home grown ideologes, namely Bakunin and Kropotkin. Both were more Anarcho Socialists but they inspired things like the first attempts at Communes in St.Petersburg. There are those who can give more detaile explanation.
Baris wrote:I agree about why Marx was wrong but the history(dialectic) all about influence and reaction, why did the western democracies didn't get the "effect" as those countries I mentioned?Yogoslavia needs more respect I guess with tito.
The other countries aren't armed better. Because of social classes or lack of aristocracy? My thought is strong Aristocracy class prevented Germany to become communist even they were near to Russian revolution(Geographically) .Other countries became communists were lacking that "tradition". By government or aristocracy.
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