Jagger2013
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China Under Seige

Sat May 03, 2014 3:51 am

I was just thinking there is a lot of similiarities between the Chinese Civil War, 1927-1950 and RUS except it took 23 years instead of 5 years and we push into WW2 and beyond. Reds, with strong Russian support, and Koumintang and warlords fighting it out until they all united to fight the Japanese in 1937 and then back at it again in 1946 till final Red victory in 1950.

And tons of foreign interference, more than just the Japanese, over the huge expanse of China-a few examples. In 1946:

The United States strongly supported the Kuomintang forces. Over 50,000 Marines were sent to guard strategic sites, and 100,000 US troops were sent to Shandong. The US equipped and trained over 500,000 KMT troops, and transported KMT forces to occupy newly liberated zones, as well as to contain Communist controlled areas.[46] American aid included substantial amounts of both new and surplus military supplies; additionally, loans worth hundreds of millions of dollars were made to the KMT.[54] Within less than 2 years after the Sino-Japanese War, the KMT had received 4.43 billion dollars from the US - most of which was military aid



In addition, the Ili Rebellion was a Soviet backed revolt by the Second East Turkestan Republic against the KMT from 1944-1949 as the Mongolians in the People's Republic were in a border dispute with the Republic of China. A Chinese Muslim Hui cavalry regiment, the 14th Tungan Cavalry regiment, was sent by the Chinese government to attack Mongol and Soviet positions along the border during the Pei-ta-shan Incident.


And naval invasions:

A PRC attempt to take the ROC controlled island of Quemoy was thwarted in the Battle of Kuningtou halting the PLA advance towards Taiwan.[65] In December 1949, Chiang proclaimed Taipei, Taiwan, the temporary capital of the Republic of China and continued to assert his government as the sole legitimate authority in China.

The Communists' other amphibious operations of 1950 were more successful: they led to the Communist conquest of Hainan Island in April 1950, capture of Wanshan Islands off the Guangdong coast (May–August 1950) and of Zhoushan Island off Zhejiang (May 1950).


Bet it would be a fascinating AGEOD game. So do we have any Chinese History experts with modding abilities out there? I suspect it would only take a couple few years to follow in the footsteps of the Espania modders and come up with China Under Siege.

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Sat May 03, 2014 3:52 am

First!
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Sat May 03, 2014 3:53 am

Seriously though that'd be a great idea, also second!
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Jagger2013
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Sat May 03, 2014 4:00 am

:thumbsup:

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ERISS
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Sat May 03, 2014 1:21 pm

Ageod well know in China and millions sales, if the Party agree... :D

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Owl
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Sat May 03, 2014 3:00 pm

I've thought about this for a few months and had considered doing such a mod project before, and more so since the whole China discussion in the RUS Mod forum. Truth of the matter though is that I figured I would not have enough time to bring forth something like this on my own in a reasonable amount of time. It would likely be a very diverse game, too - the initial infighting until the reassertion of the Republic and the situation after the beginning of the Japanese invasion and later on after the end of WW2 with the Kuomintang-CPC showdown would all be very different scenarios. With the occupation of Manchuria you'd have an interesting smaller scenario as well for example. All in all this would be a project that would be pretty huge in scope. I'd worry about a potential lack of audience though, as the Chinese Civil War has not had mainstream exposure in the West and when it comes to the WW2 part of it, the focus in the popular mind seems to be on the Pacific side of the battle. Of course, that doesn't take away from it for me personally, as I consider it an utterly fascinating subject that's also related to my research interests.

So, who knows, if such a project were ever to come about, I'd certainly be intrigued to be part of the effort, contribute with Japanese source material and so on.

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Sat May 03, 2014 3:15 pm

IMHO it is way too complex to do this project, and would required months of work. Much more feasible would be one on the Turkish "Civil War", i.e. the 1918-1923 period in Turkey
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Jagger2013
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Sat May 03, 2014 3:18 pm

I agree, Owl, huge project. I would think it would involve a minimum of 3 games. First from 1927-1937 using same engine as RUS and Espana. Second would cover WW2 and the third would cover 46-50 with possibly highly modified engines for new tech. Definitely monster project. And my knowledge of the entire time frame is almost nothing. I did see Steve McQueen in the Sand Pebbles. IIRC, it was a very good movie.

Of course, the real market would be the Chinese Military. Shoot, they would probably fund the development. Of course, the problem with the Chinese military funding development is they tend to interfere by giving directives and 5 year plans and they kept firing squads handy just in case you disappoint them. And if Ageod ever cracked open the Chinese market, they wouldn't need us! :(

I wonder if Ageod has pitched their strategic military educational products to military academies and schools around the world. I could see the US Army academy issuing a couple copies to each new student at the same time as they hand them their BDU's. Although I don't know if it is a good idea. Once people get on the gravy train, they tend to get lazy and then suddenly their back on the dole except their rich... :cool:

Jagger2013
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Sat May 03, 2014 3:28 pm

Turkish Civil War??? That is another one I never heard of.... ;) Have to go do a google search. :p apy: How about the English Civil War, I have heard of that one.

I imagine doing the research alone for a CUS would take forever if the information is available at all in the west. I couldn't even name a single general outside of Mao and Chiang Kai-shek. It would take Chinese Civil War experts that know the subject inside and out and I imagine they are pretty rare.

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Sat May 03, 2014 3:33 pm

PhilThib wrote:IMHO it is way too complex to do this project, and would required months of work. Much more feasible would be one on the Turkish "Civil War", i.e. the 1918-1923 period in Turkey


If you do this or have the map ready, let me know. I AM 100% BEHIND SUCH A PROJECT. I was thinking to do something similar using the PON map in the beginning (blacking out all the non-necessary provinces), but perhaps a better and more detailed map (such as the one from AJE) is needed. What I personally envision is a RUS-styled game for the Turkish Revolution. The era is the same and actually it might be easier to do than RUS, given the map is smaller (more or less like the Spanish Revolution game).

Oh, please let me know how to kickstart, donate, research, etc... anything that is needed to make such a project a reality! Btw, I already put my name as beta tester or researcher, whichever role you want for me. I have been reading tons of book about this war (especially the Western Campaign, since I am Greek). This war was the perfect example of what happens when supplies are low and the infrastructure not ideal, so it could be the perfect opportunity to stress the AGE engine and have a very difficult conflict for the players.

Generally, the Turkish War of Independence is like a regional megawar, given the initial interference by many major powers of the era, just after the end of WW1.
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Sat May 03, 2014 7:39 pm

It is definitely worth the try. It fits perfectly to AGE engine. With a relatively small time scale (But adequate time line for an Ageod game) and map it can be well done without extensive effort. :thumbsup:
M.Kemal's forces build up over time by gaining loyalty from local population and raising irregulars. With limited supply levels can be war of attrition versus regulars. Government use the counter measures for recruiting&loyalty. Rebellions can be tagged under greens backed by decisions with a few exception: Armenian militia, Anzavur revolt and many from some landlord tribes. Foreign intervention levels can be increased or decreased according to success in battlefield. Can think of many flavor but important events that game won't be limited to only Greek&Turkish war.

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Tue May 13, 2014 5:24 pm

I also like it because:

  • supplies and logistics were critical: it could be a title to stress how the engine works in an relatively small and controlled scenario (I have even found a MSc thesis talking about the issues in the supply lines of the Greek side)
  • I am not aware if any company has ever done this campaign, neither as a board game nor (let alone) as a computer game


Sorry I hijacked the China Under Siege idea, I wish AGEOD could deal with all these projects! :w00t:
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Wed May 14, 2014 7:50 am

Experienced modders could easily do such projects. Look at what Leibstandardte (Miguel) did with Espana 1936. It's really not so complex to do, it just takes time ;)
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Thu May 29, 2014 6:06 am

Since we are dreaming on China, I want to see the Taiping Rebellion. Revolution, foreign intervention, Triads.....

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Fri May 30, 2014 5:23 am

PhilThib wrote:Experienced modders could easily do such projects. Look at what Leibstandardte (Miguel) did with Espana 1936. It's really not so complex to do, it just takes time ;)


.. and knowledge, which I don't have. The civil war(a) in China went on for .. what .. 20 years (?) or so and most is a complete mystery
I know who Mao and Chiang Kai-Shek were, and that they were at some point allies against the Japanese, that's about all.
But I would be 100% interested in such a project, if it's well made. It would be my personal "next important" addition after Russian Revolution and Spanish Civil War ...

Jagger2013
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Fri May 30, 2014 3:21 pm

.. and knowledge


I agree. I think the two biggest challenges are 1. making the map 2. finding the sources to understand the conflict such that you could make the scenarios.

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Sat May 31, 2014 8:42 am

If you consider the Turkish civil war idea, finding the sources and map is a piece of cake....no, the real issue is the time and dedication to the project.
For instance, I have tons of info and data on the Taïping enough to make a good game...but I don't have the months of work required....
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Sat May 31, 2014 8:27 pm

Read an Interview with the president's last son explaining Bukhara before Soviet. (In the civil war which is quite interesting; he is an academician in Michigan States Uni.) In his diaries of his father's but unfortunately most of it lost by accident; mentioned about a gold M.Kemal requested. Lenin said "I give you weapon but no money nor gold". Lenin asked Frunze that he was the 'Emir' in Bukhara before. From what I understand 20% of the gold received by Turkey the other percent for filling the ranks and for arming against the Whites from those reserves.

Jagger2013
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Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:52 am

For instance, I have tons of info and data on the Taïping enough to make a good game...but I don't have the months of work required....


Time is always the problem. Although the Europe map project seems to have worked reasonably well. I wonder if it would work for China. A map would certainly be a good foundation. Making a scenario seems doable if someone has the knowledge base but the map seems a much larger project. I haven't even attempted a map but it seems a very large project for one person.

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Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:00 pm

Jagger2013 wrote:I was just thinking there is a lot of similiarities between the Chinese Civil War, 1927-1950 and RUS except it took 23 years instead of 5 years and we push into WW2 and beyond. Reds, with strong Russian support, and Koumintang and warlords fighting it out until they all united to fight the Japanese in 1937 and then back at it again in 1946 till final Red victory in 1950.


A good what-if scenario for China would be post WWII 1945-xxxx. What-if Chiang hadn’t screwed himself by behaving so badly during the war? In the beginning the allies wanted to outfit and train 60 or more Chinese divisions and use these forces as the main land army to oppose Japan with during the war. China would provide the manpower and the allies would equip and train the men.

Things started to go south right away in Burma when Chiang began interfering with Stilwell’s operational orders in an effort to “save” his forces committed there (he secretly ordered one of his divisions out of the line and totally unhinged the allied defense). After Burma China never got around to actually supplying the troop numbers they had agreed to, though enough troops for three divisions were eventually sent into India, nowhere near enough to create 60 ever came close to materializing.

But what if Chiang had behaved as a true ally and totally committed himself and China to the cause as the allies originally thought he would?

Historically Chiang’s government wasn’t interested in actually being an active partner in the war, they wanted the allies to beat Japan without Chinese help so China could horde supplies to fight the commies with after the war, but it wanted to steal as much loot as it could via lend lease by making it appear they would cooperate with allied plans so they lead the allies on.

By 1943 the allies realized what was up and changed the focus of their goals in the pacific and gave up on the idea of using the Chinese as the main land force to oppose Japan. Had Chiang not been such a tool he would have had a large, well equipped, and professional veteran army at war’s end. Just look at how well the three Chinese divisions Stilwell trained did and you can see the possibilities. I seriously doubt Mao would have been able to defeat such a force, but the scenario would be an interesting one to play out.

Chiang Kai-shek was his own worst enemy. Had he even an iota of strategic vision he would have given up his petty thievery and committed himself totally to the allied cause. By the end of WWII China would have had one of the strongest and most modern land armies on the planet.

Jim

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Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:11 am

If this came out I would 100% buy it, premium preorder collector's Generalissimo edition :thumbsup: . AKA shut up and take my money please, and I will buy it for anyone who even plays games. I mean i bought Espanha day 1 since it was a game where you get to kill commies and the good (less bad?) guys win the war. Good guys did lose the propaganda war, probably still losing it.

This would be a super hit among the free chinese wargaming community. AFAIK, there has been a few computer games on this subject, the premier being 大時代的故事 back in the 90s here http://acg.gamer.com.tw/acgDetail.php?s=19132 , although civil war was mostly northern expedition stuff, with the communists being treated like agents sent by other warlords. Scenario 2 was a united china versus Japan with Y force represented by insane divisions, and modders have made a scenario 3 that dealt with 1945-1950. Tidbit, Chiang Kai Shek had perfect stats in this game (a pretty accurate representation if you really read the history) instead of overly relying on memoirs by say Stillwell who had an axe to grind and a reputation to try to salvage. Ever read about Stillwell sabotaging Chennault and the war effort, by filling supply planes over the hump with junk like tables if he did not get what he wanted? Nope? Then why do people think he can provide the whole story?

Leaving out the games which boringly dealt only with Sino Japanese war, there is this indie effort called Res Republica Sinarum aka 民國無雙 which can be found here https://sites.google.com/site/kowloonia/ and lovingly and painstakingly depicts historical events accurately and fairly. There is a full 1945-1950 scenario, and you can play all sides (although the Republican Government gets the lion's share of the events). Interesting tidbit, this game mercilessly demolishes historical inaccuracies and propaganda. In scenario 3, playing as commies, you get an event where you can choose by answering (1." We will prevail over evil Chiang's 8 million US armed troops with XiaoMi gun ) or (2. "Wait , what 8 million US armed troops?"). If you bought into the commies fantasyland depiction of history, you would think they had mandate of heaven and defeated 8 million us armed troops with support of peasantry that magically made them MIG jets, but choosing option one would give Chiang Kai Shek a Maus tank unit and the real power of 8 million US troops, usually resulting in most players being steamrolled unless you were using game exploits mercilessly.

The commie fantasy land depiction of history means that a game of this period won't be that popular, since depicting anything close to reality will get the game banned (which is a selling point to some people). Res Republica Sinarum was banned, and software in commie china will disable it. You need to depict mao as a saint, who healed people with his touch, and could single handily defeat Japanese by staring at them from 1000 miles away sitting on his behind in a cave, and magicking out Soviet jets and heavy artillery, which was not given by uncle Joe, but awarded by the heavens for being virtuous, to even not get banned. I mean Hearts of Iron was banned for depicting a splintered china (I have seen HOI sold with banned by commies sticker), so in effect they can't handle the truth.

If you want to shed some historical misconceptions, Ah Xiang's site has all the info (in English to boot!), and for the limited amount of facts and sources I have checked out, is well researched. As for Stillwell's tired historical tropes, he dispenses with it there as well. Here is some info to the interested. http://www.republicanchina.org/homepage.html

TLDR please please please do want.

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Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:43 am

In USSR, people knew The Party was lying about the country, and so thought commies were lying too about the strangers.
When the wall collapsed and people could flee their country, they saw the hard way that foreign countries were not paradise and that non-commie governements and bosses were bad guies too. Commies do not always have to lie.

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Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:54 am

I think a game centered around the various civil wars and warlord conflicts from 1911 to 1928 would be more interesting than the KMT-Communist civil war, IMO. :D

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Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:55 am

I could only see this being possible if it is divided up into many campaigns.
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And this man, waving his crutches again and again, shouted out to the streets of Prague: "To Belgrade, to Belgrade!"

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Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:54 am

I don't maybe just me but the China Revolution is kind of appealing. In a SCW kind of way, but much larger. It's also interesting because the tides turned so many times.

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Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:10 am

I could see a scenario starting in 1911 (Sun Yat-sen et al), another in the 1920s (Rise of the Kuomintang), one featuring the Communists starting in 1927, 2 Japanese scenarios - 1931 Mukden, 1937 total war, and the 1945-1949 war.

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Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:42 am

BuckTurgidson wrote:I could see a scenario starting in 1911 (Sun Yat-sen et al), another in the 1920s (Rise of the Kuomintang), one featuring the Communists starting in 1927, 2 Japanese scenarios - 1931 Mukden, 1937 total war, and the 1945-1949 war.


Don't forget traditionally there is a 1941 war start date mid war scenario as well. I have half the mind to read up on how to mod AGEOD engines, like how one person was inspired by RUS to make the Spanish Civil War game, then eventually switched to AJE engine to finish.

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Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:16 pm

Yes, a 1941 scenario would be good. US aid (the AVG) could be handled like Axis forces in Espana.

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Thu Nov 19, 2015 9:02 am

I think, Taiping rebellion timeframe is more interesting, than Civil War in XX. War is almost all over China, two main factions: Taiping forces and Qin Empire (with several subfactions: Shi Dakai, Sengge Rinchen, Wuyi Army, Hunan Army), few secondary factions: Nian Rebels, Dungan Rebels, English Exp Corps, French Exp Corps. Perhaps, Japanese invasion corps etc.

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Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:26 am

lekseus wrote:I think, Taiping rebellion timeframe is more interesting, than Civil War in XX. War is almost all over China, two main factions: Taiping forces and Qin Empire (with several subfactions: Shi Dakai, Sengge Rinchen, Wuyi Army, Hunan Army), few secondary factions: Nian Rebels, Dungan Rebels, English Exp Corps, French Exp Corps. Perhaps, Japanese invasion corps etc.


Agreed, an extremely interesting situation. There was a nice boardgame/magazine game on the subject, designed by Richard Berg, called "Manchu", in an old issue of Strategy & Tactics.
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